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Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
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Eldonabe Offline
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Post: #161
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 07:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 02:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 01:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 09:30 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  To be fair, high school and middle schools students get free education. That’s effectively the compensation college athletes are currently limited to as well. I agree that a scholarship it’s a form of compensation—however, it’s also fair to note That a scholarship merely places the athlete in the exact same position he was in high school (free school).

Right, but in HS and middle schools, the "regular" student gets a free education, same as the athlete. In college, the athletes get a "scholarship", something that is above and beyond what the regular student, who has to pay for tuition, etc. (unless they have some kind of scholarship as well) gets. Heck, the regular student usually has to pay a "athletic fee" that goes towards paying for the scholarship for the athlete, a double kick to the nuts.

In contrast, in high school, IIRC, if there are fees involved, the athletes alone pay them. That is, there might a $200 uniform fee for cheerleaders, a $200 equipment fee for football, etc. but the entire student body doesn't get soaked with the fee, its a user fee paid for by the athlete.

That's how it should be in college too, of course.

Oh I absolutely acknowledge that a scholarship is a form of compensation (and fairly significant compensation at that). However, lets also understand that this goes back to what this league actually is. Its an organization that allows competition between student athletes at different universities. The kids needed to be students at a school in order to be play on any team representing that school. So, I still see this as a situation where the league is defining who is eligible--and has limited any compensation to getting the student an education---which is the actual purpose of these institutions. The definition of amateur for NCAA doesnt have to match any other organizations definition of amateur. I mean--the sport is pretty popular and much of that popularity comes from the fact it isnt pro football. The kids are not as jaded or mercenary.

To me, a definition of amateur that includes significant compensation for the players, which the scholarships surely are, is IMO a sham definition.



Coog- what exactly are you afraid of? You seem pretty adamant about this whole amateurism thing.

Do you think your donor base will not pony up and allow your beloved school to participate / compete?

Are you afraid of smaller school surpassing you and/or leaving you behind? Or a bigger school just crushing you because they have deeper pockets?



If you really want the NCAA to do what it really is supposed to let these kids get their money and start enforcing the STUDENT part of the student/athlete designation.

- start being more restrictive of when games are held so that these "students" have time to go to class and (you know) be students. I am pretty sure the other non-athlete kids that are paying to go to the same classes have much better attendance (Weekends only)
- start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow
10-11-2019 10:26 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #162
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 10:26 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 07:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 02:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 01:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 09:30 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  To be fair, high school and middle schools students get free education. That’s effectively the compensation college athletes are currently limited to as well. I agree that a scholarship it’s a form of compensation—however, it’s also fair to note That a scholarship merely places the athlete in the exact same position he was in high school (free school).

Right, but in HS and middle schools, the "regular" student gets a free education, same as the athlete. In college, the athletes get a "scholarship", something that is above and beyond what the regular student, who has to pay for tuition, etc. (unless they have some kind of scholarship as well) gets. Heck, the regular student usually has to pay a "athletic fee" that goes towards paying for the scholarship for the athlete, a double kick to the nuts.

In contrast, in high school, IIRC, if there are fees involved, the athletes alone pay them. That is, there might a $200 uniform fee for cheerleaders, a $200 equipment fee for football, etc. but the entire student body doesn't get soaked with the fee, its a user fee paid for by the athlete.

That's how it should be in college too, of course.

Oh I absolutely acknowledge that a scholarship is a form of compensation (and fairly significant compensation at that). However, lets also understand that this goes back to what this league actually is. Its an organization that allows competition between student athletes at different universities. The kids needed to be students at a school in order to be play on any team representing that school. So, I still see this as a situation where the league is defining who is eligible--and has limited any compensation to getting the student an education---which is the actual purpose of these institutions. The definition of amateur for NCAA doesnt have to match any other organizations definition of amateur. I mean--the sport is pretty popular and much of that popularity comes from the fact it isnt pro football. The kids are not as jaded or mercenary.

To me, a definition of amateur that includes significant compensation for the players, which the scholarships surely are, is IMO a sham definition.



Coog- what exactly are you afraid of? You seem pretty adamant about this whole amateurism thing.

Do you think your donor base will not pony up and allow your beloved school to participate / compete?

Are you afraid of smaller school surpassing you and/or leaving you behind? Or a bigger school just crushing you because they have deeper pockets?



If you really want the NCAA to do what it really is supposed to let these kids get their money and start enforcing the STUDENT part of the student/athlete designation.

- start being more restrictive of when games are held so that these "students" have time to go to class and (you know) be students. I am pretty sure the other non-athlete kids that are paying to go to the same classes have much better attendance (Weekends only)
- start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow

No, I think the Cali law is bad for the game and undermines the basic keys to the league---being a student athlete based league---not a free agent mercenary pro league. As for the your last 3 suggestions---I'd be all for that--and any other reforms that make sure these kids get be real students as well as athletes.

Understand, I dont like the law because I dont like what it does to the college game. As for my school---the truth is, the school I root for stands to do very well under this rule (as will any school with a solid financially strong booster base backed up by a billionaire super fan).
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2019 12:54 PM by Attackcoog.)
10-11-2019 11:51 AM
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Post: #163
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 04:07 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(10-10-2019 07:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Are you really going to try and conflate revenue with profit? C'mon man. You know better than that. Virtually every company that ever declared bankruptcy had revenue, but was losing money. After subtracting the expenses involved in running an athletic department, only a small percentage of schools are making money (and most of them are making maybe making a 1 million or 2 a year off hundreds of million in investment and expenses).

You are confusing which is the going concern in question here, which is not the University as a whole, but rather the Athletic Department.

The Athletic Department is not permitted to run as a for-profit business. Therefore, the only way it can capture revenues for its benefit is to generate costs that benefit the AD. Therefore the most successful of them generate small surpluses that are ceremonially handed over to the University to help maintain their freedom, and then in an arms-race process, the less successful run at a loss in an effort to keep up with the Joneses.

Texas and I believe Ohio St. (along with a few others) send much more than "small" amounts over to the university.
10-11-2019 12:07 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #164
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 10:26 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  - start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow

FWIW, i teach at an FCS school, and the last 5 - 10 years, there has been real improvement in these areas. During the semesters, I get frequent requests from the Athletic Department for updates on how the athletes in my classes are doing, and about their attendance.

The school is tracking their performance much more closely than that of the 'regular' student.
10-11-2019 04:14 PM
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Post: #165
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 10:26 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  - start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow

FWIW, i teach at an FCS school, and the last 5 - 10 years, there has been real improvement in these areas. During the semesters, I get frequent requests from the Athletic Department for updates on how the athletes in my classes are doing, and about their attendance.

The school is tracking their performance much more closely than that of the 'regular' student.

I know at least one school actually has people making sure the athletes are in the classrooms. They pay people to station themselves in the buildings and make sure the athletes show up. If they don't, they coaches find out.
10-11-2019 04:57 PM
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CardinalJim Online
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Post: #166
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-03-2019 04:08 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 01:52 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  The California law is scheduled to go into effect until 2023. It’s more of a “Hey NCAA, do something before we get involved in a few years.” The same type bill is going through the Kentucky House. I’m sure other states are addressing it as well.

As for what eventually happens at the conference level, no P5 program is going to walk away from the kind of payouts we have seen the last few years over paying their athletes or allowing their athletes to make a few bucks.
I don’t care what these pious blowhards have said in the past. Faced with leaving The SEC, The ACC, Big 12, Big Ten or PAC for less money and less prestige in a G5 conference, they’ll cough up the cash.

When it’s all said and done, I doubt we’ll see any real change in the future.

Agreed on all fronts. To be sure, there's a lot of individual change in the sense that athletes can now legally receive third party compensation. However, I agree that the *structure* of how conferences are aligned isn't going anywhere. Anyone from a Power 5 conference that claims that they're considering Division III is lying. (Plus, Division III is going to allow for third party compensation, too, so there is ZERO reason to downgrade whatsoever.) Illinois just built a magnificent new pro-level football facility and we're renovating our basketball facility in a similar fashion... and we're Illinois! We're freaking terrible in our revenue sports! (Granted, our basketball program is going to be finally back this season. I have less optimism on the football side of the ledger.) I can tell you that we're not walking away from the Big Ten and the top level of college sports regardless of how players get compensated (and neither will Northwestern, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Miami, USC, Alabama, etc.). The NCAA and its member conferences and schools will all whine and be dragged into this kicking and screaming with requisite legal challenges, but we're eventually all going to adjust and simply move on. By 2025, we're probably going to be amazed by how *little* will have changed with third party player compensation.

Completely agree Frank
As with most types of change, the actual change is most always less traumatic than the fear of making the change.
10-11-2019 05:27 PM
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CardinalJim Online
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Post: #167
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 04:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 10:26 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  - start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow

FWIW, i teach at an FCS school, and the last 5 - 10 years, there has been real improvement in these areas. During the semesters, I get frequent requests from the Athletic Department for updates on how the athletes in my classes are doing, and about their attendance.

The school is tracking their performance much more closely than that of the 'regular' student.

I know at least one school actually has people making sure the athletes are in the classrooms. They pay people to station themselves in the buildings and make sure the athletes show up. If they don't, they coaches find out.

My Son told stories about this when Coach Strong took over at UofL. He said football players that hadn’t been to class all semester started showing up to class and sitting in the first three rows. He said players would make sure that the professor knew their name and that they were there. My Son said they were scared too death of being counted absent.
10-11-2019 05:38 PM
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Eldonabe Offline
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Post: #168
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 10:26 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  - start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow

FWIW, i teach at an FCS school, and the last 5 - 10 years, there has been real improvement in these areas. During the semesters, I get frequent requests from the Athletic Department for updates on how the athletes in my classes are doing, and about their attendance.

The school is tracking their performance much more closely than that of the 'regular' student.

I think that is truly a great thing. I do openly wonder how many of the "factory schools" really do this....
10-14-2019 10:57 AM
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sierrajip Offline
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Post: #169
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 10:26 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  - start tracking/enforcing grades
- start enforcing actual classroom requirements that everybody else has to follow

FWIW, i teach at an FCS school, and the last 5 - 10 years, there has been real improvement in these areas. During the semesters, I get frequent requests from the Athletic Department for updates on how the athletes in my classes are doing, and about their attendance.

The school is tracking their performance much more closely than that of the 'regular' student.

I wish I could believe the larger schools did the same. Great to hear that from your school.
10-15-2019 01:34 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #170
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.
10-15-2019 03:09 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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Post: #171
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
The only thing I see happening with CFB players being payed is that the NFL might have to start throwing money to the colleges for the NFL minor league that they do not pay for now.
10-16-2019 04:43 AM
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Post: #172
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.
10-16-2019 09:20 AM
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Post: #173
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.
10-16-2019 09:33 AM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #174
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-16-2019 09:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.
Only thing I can see is boosters deciding to directly patronize players rather than athletic departments, leading to funding cuts for non-revenue sports. It's very plausible but I don't think it'd be a train wreck as much as a little belt tightening for them. It might even open up more competition from mid-majors in non-revenue sports.
10-16-2019 10:04 AM
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Post: #175
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-16-2019 10:04 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.
Only thing I can see is boosters deciding to directly patronize players rather than athletic departments, leading to funding cuts for non-revenue sports. It's very plausible but I don't think it'd be a train wreck as much as a little belt tightening for them. It might even open up more competition from mid-majors in non-revenue sports.

Agreed, and even in that case, women's teams, which are most vulnerable, will be protected by Title IX. No court will let a school have 65 or 85 scholarship football players without the same number of women's athletes, it's just the way it is.
10-16-2019 10:13 AM
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Post: #176
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-16-2019 09:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.

Ultimately it leads to pay for play. Then football and basketball suck up all the money.
10-17-2019 07:55 PM
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chester Offline
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Post: #177
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-17-2019 07:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.

Ultimately it leads to pay for play. Then football and basketball suck up all the money.

Why should non-revenue sports be sponsored beyond what Title IX would require when it would come at the expense of those involved in revenue sports?
10-17-2019 11:05 PM
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Post: #178
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-17-2019 11:05 PM)chester Wrote:  
(10-17-2019 07:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 03:09 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  In the short run it will be a train wreck for all but the football factories. In the long run, it will be a train wreck for everybody.

And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.

Ultimately it leads to pay for play. Then football and basketball suck up all the money.

Why should non-revenue sports be sponsored beyond what Title IX would require when it would come at the expense of those involved in revenue sports?

Agreed. If men's volleyball can't pay for itself, wack it.
10-17-2019 11:17 PM
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Post: #179
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-17-2019 11:17 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-17-2019 11:05 PM)chester Wrote:  
(10-17-2019 07:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:33 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  And I fear the biggest train wreck will be for all the other sports but football and basketball, the ones who actually do have athletes who could have gotten into the school if they didn't play sports.

Seriously - why do you think that football and hoops players being able to sell their likeness will have a bad effect on say the women's soccer team or the men's baseball team?

I don't see the connection so please help.

Ultimately it leads to pay for play. Then football and basketball suck up all the money.

Why should non-revenue sports be sponsored beyond what Title IX would require when it would come at the expense of those involved in revenue sports?

Agreed. If men's volleyball can't pay for itself, wack it.

No doubt. Somebody, somewhere, might enjoy competitive hopscotch or pillow fighting. Doesn't mean it should be sponsored. There has to be a line of demarcation and the obvious mark is between that which makes money and that which does not.
10-18-2019 12:01 AM
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Post: #180
RE: Am I the only one who thinks pay for play will be a train wreck?
(10-11-2019 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-11-2019 04:07 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The Athletic Department is not permitted to run as a for-profit business. Therefore, the only way it can capture revenues for its benefit is to generate costs that benefit the AD. Therefore the most successful of them generate small surpluses that are ceremonially handed over to the University to help maintain their freedom, and then in an arms-race process, the less successful run at a loss in an effort to keep up with the Joneses.

Texas and I believe Ohio St. (along with a few others) send much more than "small" amounts over to the university.

I see an article from this year with information from this decade saying OSU generated $145.2m. Of that, between $8m and $9m is transferred to the University general fund. OSU is a University which has total revenues of $7.5b ... so, netting out AD dept. revenues, round down and say $7.3b. That's a gross surplus on the order of 6% for the department which is on the order of 0.12% of University revenue.
(This post was last modified: 10-18-2019 03:55 AM by BruceMcF.)
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