(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 08:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 06:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-04-2019 11:57 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  Very interesting question has been raised:

Is the AAC putting itself in a bind by both informing the NCAA that UConn FB is being booted from the conference and then asking the NCAA for a waiver?

It's possible that the NCAA would decline the waiver - not because they have any objections to a waiver - simply because it doesn't want to take a controversial position by essentially endorsing the AAC's decision to boot UConn FB out of the conference.

I don't think the NCAA cares whether conferences boot schools out or not. That's between the conference and the school.

However, I have assumed all along that the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver, on the grounds that the AAC didn't create their current situation, because UConn decided to leave, and a conference can't control that.

But I have unthinkingly forgotten that the waiver is being requested for football, having a CCG, and UConn did NOT leave the AAC in football. They wanted to remain, but the AAC kicked them out.

And because of that, I agree, the NCAA may be very leery about granting a waiver for a situation that the conference consciously chose to put itself in. Waivers, by their nature, are for events that "happen" to conferences and institutions that they couldn't control, not for conscious decisions to put yourself in violation of a rule.

I'll let you guys worry about the waiver. Zero chance a waiver aiding in uneven division scheduling for 2020 will be denied.

The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games (4 home, 4 away) but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 08:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 06:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't think the NCAA cares whether conferences boot schools out or not. That's between the conference and the school.

However, I have assumed all along that the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver, on the grounds that the AAC didn't create their current situation, because UConn decided to leave, and a conference can't control that.

But I have unthinkingly forgotten that the waiver is being requested for football, having a CCG, and UConn did NOT leave the AAC in football. They wanted to remain, but the AAC kicked them out.

And because of that, I agree, the NCAA may be very leery about granting a waiver for a situation that the conference consciously chose to put itself in. Waivers, by their nature, are for events that "happen" to conferences and institutions that they couldn't control, not for conscious decisions to put yourself in violation of a rule.

I'll let you guys worry about the waiver. Zero chance a waiver aiding in uneven division scheduling for 2020 will be denied.

The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Sigh...

No, the simplest fix is to have two teams in the smaller division play a home and home series. Fixes everything, and not rocket science.

USFFan

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 08:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 06:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't think the NCAA cares whether conferences boot schools out or not. That's between the conference and the school.

However, I have assumed all along that the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver, on the grounds that the AAC didn't create their current situation, because UConn decided to leave, and a conference can't control that.

But I have unthinkingly forgotten that the waiver is being requested for football, having a CCG, and UConn did NOT leave the AAC in football. They wanted to remain, but the AAC kicked them out.

And because of that, I agree, the NCAA may be very leery about granting a waiver for a situation that the conference consciously chose to put itself in. Waivers, by their nature, are for events that "happen" to conferences and institutions that they couldn't control, not for conscious decisions to put yourself in violation of a rule.

I'll let you guys worry about the waiver. Zero chance a waiver aiding in uneven division scheduling for 2020 will be denied.

The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games (4 home, 4 away) but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Correct. But the issues you point out are still considered by the membership to be a better option than being saddled with a member nobody wants. Eventually, there will be a someone who wants to join who is also desired by the vast majority of the current membership. Thats when you'll see #12 added.

(10-08-2019 12:56 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 08:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I'll let you guys worry about the waiver. Zero chance a waiver aiding in uneven division scheduling for 2020 will be denied.

The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Sigh...

No, the simplest fix is to have two teams in the smaller division play a home and home series. Fixes everything, and not rocket science.

USFFan

and that's an answer that is small time.... Only desperate indy's play twice in a season.

Don't think that's going to be a long term answer at all..

(10-08-2019 12:58 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:56 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Sigh...

No, the simplest fix is to have two teams in the smaller division play a home and home series. Fixes everything, and not rocket science.

USFFan

and that's an answer that is small time.... Only desperate indy's play twice in a season.

Don't think that's going to be a long term answer at all..

The short term fix is a waiver. The long term fix is member #12. Until there is a potential member #12 who adds enough to the conference to gain overwhelming support among the current membership---a waiver is the best answer.

(10-08-2019 12:56 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 08:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I'll let you guys worry about the waiver. Zero chance a waiver aiding in uneven division scheduling for 2020 will be denied.

The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Sigh...

No, the simplest fix is to have two teams in the smaller division play a home and home series. Fixes everything, and not rocket science.

USFFan

I guess that'd work. I think I'd prefer the waiver option though.

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

The last two sentences are correct, but the part that is the sticking point is not the part you bolded. The sticking point is "conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division".

The MAC and CUSA obtained a waiver when they had an odd number of teams not because they had uneven divisions, but because in order for each conference team to play the same number of conference games without teams playing each other twice, at least one of the divisions couldn't have a round robin.

It's been pointed out in this thread that the round robin requirement could be met in divisions of 5 and 6 if two teams in the smaller division play each other twice. It's also been pointed out in this thread that the conference is very unlikely to do that, except possibly for one season only.

(10-08-2019 12:58 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:56 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Sigh...

No, the simplest fix is to have two teams in the smaller division play a home and home series. Fixes everything, and not rocket science.

USFFan

and that's an answer that is small time.... Only desperate indy's play twice in a season.

Don't think that's going to be a long term answer at all..

Never said it was a long term or ideal answer. But it's legal. Which seems to continuously get lost in these discussions.

USFFan

(10-08-2019 12:56 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:41 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(10-08-2019 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-05-2019 08:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I'll let you guys worry about the waiver. Zero chance a waiver aiding in uneven division scheduling for 2020 will be denied.

The NCAA will definitely permit what you mention -- a waiver to use uneven divisions temporarily -- because that has been given to two other conferences in the past. That's what the AAC can get, but that's not what they have asked for, according to Aresco's public comments.

How is it that we're still debating settled rules? The NCAA rules are:

Quote:17.10.5.2 Annual Exemptions.

17.10.5.2.1 Bowl Subdivision. In bowl subdivision football, the maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:

[deleted extraneous stuff]

(b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game either:

(1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or

(2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular-season competition among all members of the conference.

The AAC does not need a waiver to have uneven divisions. The AAC needs a waiver if they want to have a championship game that does not meet either of the two criteria above.

There are ways to achieve 1 above (11 teams can be divided into two divisions, 1 with 6 members and 1 with 5 is "as equally balanced in number as possible"). Aresco has made noise about the AAC eliminating divisions, not playing a full round robin and still holding a championship game. I don't see that happening long term. I do think they can get a waiver for 2020.

USFFan

Yes but to achieve all that is almost the worst option of all because it involves different number of conference games or not guaranteeing some teams 4 home games. If one division has 5 games to complete their round robin and the other 4 then how many crossdvision games are there? It's sticky and ugly. Someone on the AAC did a whole grid system that would allow it but the OOC scheduling that would need to accompany it would be a nightmare. When CUSA had uneven divisions we still played 8 conference games but some from the larger division wouldn't play all of their division foes and an extra cross division foe. Thus we didn't meet the "round robin" aspect for both divisions and needed a waiver, which was granted.

Sigh...

No, the simplest fix is to have two teams in the smaller division play a home and home series. Fixes everything, and not rocket science.

USFFan

That's a simple fix, but IMO not a good one. While home and home series are common in just about every other sport, in college football they just feel weird, and as "stever" said, they smack of small-time desperation.

Circumstances may determine that this is the way to go, but short of adding an undesirable #12, I would avoid it if possible.