(09-18-2019 11:36 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  BYU because the original WAC was in the fifth Beatle role that AAC claims now, except without the formalizing of a post-season agreement some lumped the WAC in with the majors especially when Arizona and Arizona State were in the league. We debate how hard it would be for a G5 to get to the 1-4 slots on the last day of the regular season but BYU was in a position where they were #1 on the poll taken after the last day of the regular season, they just had the issue that no ranked team would agree to go to the Holiday and they got the MNC from the polls.

Even more recently, the MWC of ten years ago had the best-ever claim on being the "7th BCS conference" (or the 5th Beatle, or the 9th Ivy League school, etc.). They had Utah and their BCS bowl wins, they had TCU and their BCS games, and they already had Boise State and their BCS wins set to join the MWC. If that conference was intact today with BYU, Utah, TCU, and Boise State, it would easily have the most football cachet of any league other than the P5.

That is what BYU lost in realignment in this decade.

(09-18-2019 11:36 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  New Mexico State and BYU have a good case.

BYU because the original WAC was in the fifth Beatle role that AAC claims now, except without the formalizing of a post-season agreement some lumped the WAC in with the majors especially when Arizona and Arizona State were in the league. We debate how hard it would be for a G5 to get to the 1-4 slots on the last day of the regular season but BYU was in a position where they were #1 on the poll taken after the last day of the regular season, they just had the issue that no ranked team would agree to go to the Holiday and they got the MNC from the polls.

BYU is in a VASTLY worst place and has lost Utah as a league game and the front range games.

New Mexico State left behind when the Border Conference blew up always wanted WAC. They had modest football success in the Valley, pretty awful in the Big East, modest success in the Sun Belt, pretty awful in the WAC, back to Sun Belt first bowl in the lifetime of many of their fans and kicked to the curb. They now exist in a WAC that lacks football and does not have one single member from the days when they dreamed of being WAC. Joining in 2005 they are the WAC's most senior member with everyone else added in 2012 or later.

West Texas A&M was in the same boat as New Mexico State. Would they be in the Big West with New Mexico State for 1A football and then to the WAC for FBS? West Texas A&M might be in MWC now instead of San Jose State.

(09-18-2019 12:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 11:36 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  New Mexico State and BYU have a good case.

BYU because the original WAC was in the fifth Beatle role that AAC claims now, except without the formalizing of a post-season agreement some lumped the WAC in with the majors especially when Arizona and Arizona State were in the league. We debate how hard it would be for a G5 to get to the 1-4 slots on the last day of the regular season but BYU was in a position where they were #1 on the poll taken after the last day of the regular season, they just had the issue that no ranked team would agree to go to the Holiday and they got the MNC from the polls.

BYU is in a VASTLY worst place and has lost Utah as a league game and the front range games.

New Mexico State left behind when the Border Conference blew up always wanted WAC. They had modest football success in the Valley, pretty awful in the Big East, modest success in the Sun Belt, pretty awful in the WAC, back to Sun Belt first bowl in the lifetime of many of their fans and kicked to the curb. They now exist in a WAC that lacks football and does not have one single member from the days when they dreamed of being WAC. Joining in 2005 they are the WAC's most senior member with everyone else added in 2012 or later.

West Texas A&M was in the same boat as New Mexico State. Would they be in the Big West with New Mexico State for 1A football and then to the WAC for FBS? West Texas A&M might be in MWC now instead of San Jose State.

Let's limit it to this decade.

I’d have to say Temple, Cincy, UConn, and USF. Houston, SMU, and Rice were the biggest losers in 1996 and still haven’t regained what they lost.

Temple went from playing all those old eastern independents, as they had for decades, got to spend a little over a decade in a conference with them as a football affiliate, and then got jilted by a combination of Villanova not wanting them to be on an equal footing or a full member and a UConn football program coming up that made them expendable and superfluous.

Cincy probably did the most on the field to deserve P5 status. I was desperately hoping that the 8 member Big 12 would take TCU, L’ville, WVU, and Cincy. Maryland to the Big Ten would have opened an ACC slot for UConn and 7 of the 8 2005-2012 Big Rast football schools would have all had P homes.

USF (and UCF) both fit the P mold—Big state universities in big cities. If CA and TX can support 4-5 P teams then so can FL.

(09-18-2019 10:55 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  UConn followed by BYU. UConn lost all of its basketball rivals and BYU saw its arch rival Utah get elevated to power status. BYU is winless against Utah since then.

Cincinnati did more with less when they were given a seat at the big table. But they were not far removed from their C-USA days and they’re now reunited with most of them in the AAC. South Florida lost the only advantage they had over Central Florida and the Golden Knights have been to three BCS/NY6 bowls since they’ve been in the same conference.

I mean, part of that is just because Utah is really, really good.

They're 0-7 against Utah since going independent but they were 3-8 the years immediately preceding that so it's not like it's been a cataclysmic shift.

I'm going to say CUSA and all of the Big 12 teams that left for other conferences. Realignment nearly destroyed CUSA and it still has not recovered from that assault even remotely yet. And the Big 12 teams that left really hasn't done too much on the field:

Colorado (PAC 12) - Pac-12 South in 2016
Mizzou (SEC) - SEC East Title in 2013 & 2014
Texas A&M - Nothing
Nebraska - B1G Legends Title - 2012

(09-18-2019 12:37 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 10:55 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  UConn followed by BYU. UConn lost all of its basketball rivals and BYU saw its arch rival Utah get elevated to power status. BYU is winless against Utah since then.

Cincinnati did more with less when they were given a seat at the big table. But they were not far removed from their C-USA days and they’re now reunited with most of them in the AAC. South Florida lost the only advantage they had over Central Florida and the Golden Knights have been to three BCS/NY6 bowls since they’ve been in the same conference.

I mean, part of that is just because Utah is really, really good.

They're 0-7 against Utah since going independent but they were 3-8 the years immediately preceding that so it's not like it's been a cataclysmic shift.

i would argue look at their scheduling since becoming indy. Their September schedules are just brutal.... Just look at this year. Utah, Tennessee, USC, and Washington.

The schools that had "P5" access and had it taken away from them because ESPN wanted to break up the Big East are the ones that got screwed the most- UC, UConn, and USF.

They lost a LOT of money, "P5" status, bigger bowl game access, and rivalries.

(09-18-2019 12:30 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’d have to say Temple, Cincy, UConn, and USF. Houston, SMU, and Rice were the biggest losers in 1996 and still haven’t regained what they lost.

Temple went from playing all those old eastern independents, as they had for decades, got to spend a little over a decade in a conference with them as a football affiliate, and then got jilted by a combination of Villanova not wanting them to be on an equal footing or a full member and a UConn football program coming up that made them expendable and superfluous.

Cincy probably did the most on the field to deserve P5 status. I was desperately hoping that the 8 member Big 12 would take TCU, L’ville, WVU, and Cincy. Maryland to the Big Ten would have opened an ACC slot for UConn and 7 of the 8 2005-2012 Big Rast football schools would have all had P homes.

USF (and UCF) both fit the P mold—Big state universities in big cities. If CA and TX can support 4-5 P teams then so can FL.

Temple was thrown out of the BE, because Temple demanded a vote on full membership or NO membership. It simply overplayed its hand right after the first ACC raid and a time when the BE was particularly vulnerable. True, Temple was screwed by being the lone remaining football only member, as RU WVU and VT were all granted full BE membership. True, Temple's full membership was blocked by Villanova (who didn't want TU on the same footing for basketball and Olympic sports) and USF (who had a deal with Nova that kept UCF out of the BE) and some of the other original BE members (who just went with what Nova wanted). But the issue was pushed by Temple. Had they simply sat back and waited, full membership would have come, without the drama.

I agree that Cincy probably was the biggest loser in conference realignment. If wins and loses counted for anything, then Cincy was clearly deserving of a P5 home. IMHO, the B12 really missed the boat by not inviting them and Ville when WV was invited.

(09-18-2019 11:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 11:07 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Hot Take - Maryland.

Yes, they are making much more money in the B1G than the ACC (which helped their budget deficit). However, they join the B1G East in Football (which they will never be able to finish above Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State in most years), and they left a superior basketball conference in the ACC, leaving behind long-time rivals in Duke, North Carolina and Virginia. Their new geographic rivals include Penn State and Rutgers, who are both subpar in men's basketball. The B1G gained a lot of value from Maryland's membership, no doubt; however, long-term, I think Maryland will lose a lot by lost associations with Virginia, UNC and Duke.

long term you think about the money though. The Big Ten will sign not one but likely TWO more tv contracts before the ACC is up again. The Big Ten is already way ahead of the ACC. They're right now(or when they get full money at least) getting 20 million more per year over the ACC. For a school that money was an issue- that's HUGE.

Totally agree, but I would think that Maryland fans will - over time - potentially lose interest being a doormat in the B1G East, as well as losing those basketball rivalries previously mentioned. Just because a school is making more money does not necessarily mean it is getting more fan interest and/or support at games. They will be interesting to watch over the coming years to see how they adapt.

Cincinnati or USM

For Cincy the last decade of realignment has basically undone the previous decade. All the teams they thought they'd left behind share a conference with them.

Southern Miss on the other hand has been left behind by all their former peers and sadly, have struggled in C-USA 3.0.

Idaho, NMSU, West Virginia. In that order.

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(09-18-2019 01:42 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 11:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 11:07 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Hot Take - Maryland.

Yes, they are making much more money in the B1G than the ACC (which helped their budget deficit). However, they join the B1G East in Football (which they will never be able to finish above Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State in most years), and they left a superior basketball conference in the ACC, leaving behind long-time rivals in Duke, North Carolina and Virginia. Their new geographic rivals include Penn State and Rutgers, who are both subpar in men's basketball. The B1G gained a lot of value from Maryland's membership, no doubt; however, long-term, I think Maryland will lose a lot by lost associations with Virginia, UNC and Duke.

long term you think about the money though. The Big Ten will sign not one but likely TWO more tv contracts before the ACC is up again. The Big Ten is already way ahead of the ACC. They're right now(or when they get full money at least) getting 20 million more per year over the ACC. For a school that money was an issue- that's HUGE.

Totally agree, but I would think that Maryland fans will - over time - potentially lose interest being a doormat in the B1G East, as well as losing those basketball rivalries previously mentioned. Just because a school is making more money does not necessarily mean it is getting more fan interest and/or support at games. They will be interesting to watch over the coming years to see how they adapt.

Football at maryland never really has driven the bus at all... College football here in the DMV is largely an afterthought. They can't lose more interest than they had before in football- it just hasn't been there.

Basketball Maryland- a few things. 1 thing they can do to replace Duke/UNC/Virginia is do stuff with Georgetown. I know they did that a few years ago and it was huge. 2- they weren't going to be guaranteed to get all 3 of those teams at home yearly anyways.

I say New Mexico State. Those poor Aggies can't seem to catch a break.

(09-18-2019 12:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 12:37 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 10:55 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  UConn followed by BYU. UConn lost all of its basketball rivals and BYU saw its arch rival Utah get elevated to power status. BYU is winless against Utah since then.

Cincinnati did more with less when they were given a seat at the big table. But they were not far removed from their C-USA days and they’re now reunited with most of them in the AAC. South Florida lost the only advantage they had over Central Florida and the Golden Knights have been to three BCS/NY6 bowls since they’ve been in the same conference.

I mean, part of that is just because Utah is really, really good.

They're 0-7 against Utah since going independent but they were 3-8 the years immediately preceding that so it's not like it's been a cataclysmic shift.

i would argue look at their scheduling since becoming indy. Their September schedules are just brutal.... Just look at this year. Utah, Tennessee, USC, and Washington.

Isn't that partly what they wanted though? More interesting games

BYU has basically the same record since becoming Indy that they did the 7 years before becoming Indy with a harder and more interesting schedule. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in a hypothetical MWC with Utah, TCU, and Boise St or better yet the Big 12/Pac 12, but it's hard to say it's some catastrophe for the program.

(09-18-2019 02:24 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 12:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 12:37 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 10:55 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  UConn followed by BYU. UConn lost all of its basketball rivals and BYU saw its arch rival Utah get elevated to power status. BYU is winless against Utah since then.

Cincinnati did more with less when they were given a seat at the big table. But they were not far removed from their C-USA days and they’re now reunited with most of them in the AAC. South Florida lost the only advantage they had over Central Florida and the Golden Knights have been to three BCS/NY6 bowls since they’ve been in the same conference.

I mean, part of that is just because Utah is really, really good.

They're 0-7 against Utah since going independent but they were 3-8 the years immediately preceding that so it's not like it's been a cataclysmic shift.

i would argue look at their scheduling since becoming indy. Their September schedules are just brutal.... Just look at this year. Utah, Tennessee, USC, and Washington.

Isn't that partly what they wanted though? More interesting games

BYU has basically the same record since becoming Indy that they did the 7 years before becoming Indy with a harder and more interesting schedule. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in a hypothetical MWC with Utah, TCU, and Boise St or better yet the Big 12/Pac 12, but it's hard to say it's some catastrophe for the program.

but is it all that much harder overall for the schedule? A big problem is the tough part of the schedule is so condensed, it's tough to go 4-0 or 3-1 in those tough games... If it was spread out better, they'd have a better chance....

Also lets look at the records- they went indy after 2010 season...
2011-2018 63-41 .606 t40
2003-2010 65-35 .650 t21

their winning percentage is lower. And also-
# of 10 win seasons
2011-18 1(in 2011 btw)
2003-10 4

A few things:

(1) No one that is actually in a P5 conference (e.g. West Virginia, Maryland) could ever be considered a "loser". While fans may bemoan the loss of historic rivalries or the haphazard geography of conference realignment, the economic divide is so massive between the P5 and everyone else that hearing a P5 school complain about its lot in life is like having a billionaire complain about the quality of a high-end steakhouse to the waiter that is living on food stamps or that their life in a deluxe apartment on the Upper East Side of New York is so tough compared to their old mansion in Beverly Hills. Cry me f*cking river! No one has a perfect life, but some problems are waaaaaay worse than other problems... and any problems of the P5 schools certainly don't compare to any G5 schools.

(2) BYU isn't a loser, much less the biggest loser as some have argued here. Sure, in a *relative* sense, BYU fell behind its biggest rival of Utah that got into the Pac-12, so that certainly hurts and it's a huge reason why BYU will continue to be independent for branding and perception purposes instead of ever considering joining a G5 league. However, in an *absolute* sense, BYU is making more TV money and has a better schedule with more high profile opponents than it did when it was a member of the MWC. Frankly, BYU was at least able to adjust and make a viable life as an independent when it didn't have a P5 spot in a way that no other G5 school was able to do. As a result, BYU might be the only school outside of the P5 that actually has some semblance of control over its own destiny (whereas everyone else is just waiting for a miracle spot to open in the P5).

(3) It's hard to call anyone other than UConn as the biggest loser because they legitimately went from "next in line" for an ACC invite (being THISCLOSE to getting the spot instead of Louisville) to the point today where they realize that they will probably *never* receive a P5 invite for at least this generation (if not ever). It was essentially a coin flip for them being an ACC member versus where they are today... and the coin landed on the wrong side. To be sure, I actually think UConn can survive as an independent in football better than a lot of people believe here and it will be a net financial positive to be a Big East basketball member regardless of what happens with football (as the Big East truly is considered a power basketball conference from a *branding* and *status* standpoint and it will get paid as such). That move was the best way to mitigate the damages of conference realignment as long as UConn had convinced themselves (and IMHO, correctly) that they weren't ever getting into a P5 league going forward. Of course, that's why conference realignment hurt UConn so much overall. No one... not BYU, not Cincinnati and definitely not USF... was ever as close to being in the P5 as UConn was and ended up on the outside... and a few years later, they have to face the fact that they'll realistically never get there. That's true conference realignment agony at the highest level.

UConn, Cincinnati and USF.

Some others mentioned, like NMSU and Idaho, never had much so they didn’t lose quite as much.

Southern Miss is in the same boat as UAB. Just left behind, didn’t do enough or didn’t have the market to merit promotion.

I kind of look at Richmond as being one of the losers.

Go from being the team in Richmond to now sharing with VCU
VCU goes to final 4
then loses Xavier and Temple from conference- and conference way worse end of the decade than it started it.

(09-18-2019 01:46 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Idaho, NMSU, West Virginia. In that order.

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Huh? I wouldn't call them the biggest winner by any means, but they caught one of the last lifeboats to a P5 league. They lost geographic and long time rivals, but there is not a single WVU fan anywhere that would trade being in an awkward fit B12 for the AAC.