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Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
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ken d Offline
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Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
A budgets grow almost out of control, and the interests of the high resource schools diverge even more from those of the bulk of the NCAA schools, how will the NCAA react? Could they keep control of their cash cow - the NCAAT - by divesting themselves of the sport that is the P5's cash cow - football?

To be sure, P5 schools also do right well financially from hoops. But football still drives the bus for most of them, and the bulk of their ticket and media revenue comes from football. Why does football need to stay under the NCAA's umbrella? Might it not benefit both the NCAA and the P5 if they were to part ways amicably regarding this unique sport?
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2019 10:18 AM by ken d.)
08-05-2019 10:12 AM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 10:12 AM)ken d Wrote:  A budgets grow almost out of control, and the interests of the high resource schools diverge even more from those of the bulk of the NCAA schools, how will the NCAA react? Could they keep control of their cash cow - the NCAAT - by divesting themselves of the sport that is the P5's cash cow - football?

To be sure, P5 schools also do right well financially from hoops. But football still drives the bus for most of them, and the bulk of their ticket and media revenue comes from football. Why does football need to stay under the NCAA's umbrella? Might it not benefit both the NCAA and the P5 if they were to part ways amicably regarding this unique sport?

I think it would go a long long way in reducing the tension that is building between the P5's and the NCAA. Let the P5 step away from amateurism in college football. That would help the NCAA concentrate its enforcement on amateurism in the sports they retained and it would permit the AD's everywhere to confront at what level of participation its school wanted to pursue football. It could go a long way toward sorting this mess out.

Secondly, with no NCAA restrictions upon football each conference would be free to decide its best structure and how best to manage their playoff structure. IMO the NCAA never had any business in dictating these kind of internal structures.

The drawback that I see however is that basketball is another money sport. So from the NCAA perspective if football is successful outside of the auspices of the NCAA it might also encourage the schools to pursue the same path for hoops. If it does it guts the revenue supporting minor sports.

The other drawback should CFB become a quasi professional sport is how does that legally impact Title IX ratios?
08-05-2019 10:25 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
Title IX is a congressional mandate, and really doesn't (or needn't) involve the NCAA at all. If I had to guess, if a move like this were to happen, it wouldn't have a negative impact on schools' Title IX compliance, and could even have some small positive impact.

As for basketball, unless the NCAA moves strongly in the direction of allowing players to receive income from outside their school for endorsements and use of image, and allows players to have agents and receive advances from them, they are going to lose that sport as well, and likely their reason for existence. I believe those changes will come sooner rather than later regardless what happens with football.
08-05-2019 11:03 AM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 11:03 AM)ken d Wrote:  Title IX is a congressional mandate, and really doesn't (or needn't) involve the NCAA at all. If I had to guess, if a move like this were to happen, it wouldn't have a negative impact on schools' Title IX compliance, and could even have some small positive impact.

As for basketball, unless the NCAA moves strongly in the direction of allowing players to receive income from outside their school for endorsements and use of image, and allows players to have agents and receive advances from them, they are going to lose that sport as well, and likely their reason for existence. I believe those changes will come sooner rather than later regardless what happens with football.

I'm just not sure how Title IX will apply to a for profit sport?

As to the NCAA I agree that if basketball gets away from them they are toast.

But your initial question was would football's exclusion help or hurt. I think that it would help them initially, but should it precipitate the trajectory of basketball it would be their demise.
08-05-2019 11:46 AM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
P5 programs, or anyone else, can already take their football programs outside the NCAA. Many schools already have a sport or two that isn't under the NCAA umbrella -- rugby is one example. There would be a few complications for football, such as:

1) Either entire conferences would need to do it, or a school would have to find a new conference affiliation for all of its other sports. The Big Ten isn't going to let Ohio State remain a member if the Buckeyes withdraw their football program from the conference.

2) There would have to be a critical mass of schools starting this new non-NCAA affiliation all at once, so that there's a large enough pool of opponents for scheduling.

3) Also, if the breakaway group includes only P5 programs, or only a subset of P5, there will be the problem of not enough easy wins to go around for every program whose spoiled fans demand 9 or more wins every year and won't accept regularly going 5-7 or worse vs. a no-cupcake schedule.

4) Some busy people will have to spend a lot of time and energy away from their real jobs to set up this new organization that will administer non-NCAA college football. That includes some new group to make rules and enforce them, unless this is going to be the wild wild west with no restrictions on money or academics or whether the football players are students at the university whose uniform they wear.
08-05-2019 11:55 AM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
Ideally (for student-athletes, not for schools running compliance programs) each sport would be governed by the national governing body for each sport.

USSF taking over soccer from the NCAA mess is badly needed. Need it for rules consistency but also the NCAA amateurism rules are a mess. A kid can play summer in a pro league if no one on his team gets paid anything above a few acceptable expenses. They can play against a pro team but the hill the NCAA chose to die on is whether anyone on your team is a pro. Weird.

If Bugtussle Tech wants to compete at the highest level in men's and women's tennis and be non-scholarship in other sports, more power to them.
08-05-2019 12:12 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 12:12 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Ideally (for student-athletes, not for schools running compliance programs) each sport would be governed by the national governing body for each sport.

USSF taking over soccer from the NCAA mess is badly needed. Need it for rules consistency but also the NCAA amateurism rules are a mess. A kid can play summer in a pro league if no one on his team gets paid anything above a few acceptable expenses. They can play against a pro team but the hill the NCAA chose to die on is whether anyone on your team is a pro. Weird.

Anything to get college soccer teams to stop using free substitution would be welcome.
08-05-2019 12:44 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 11:55 AM)Wedge Wrote:  P5 programs, or anyone else, can already take their football programs outside the NCAA. Many schools already have a sport or two that isn't under the NCAA umbrella -- rugby is one example. There would be a few complications for football, such as:

1) Either entire conferences would need to do it, or a school would have to find a new conference affiliation for all of its other sports. The Big Ten isn't going to let Ohio State remain a member if the Buckeyes withdraw their football program from the conference.

2) There would have to be a critical mass of schools starting this new non-NCAA affiliation all at once, so that there's a large enough pool of opponents for scheduling.

3) Also, if the breakaway group includes only P5 programs, or only a subset of P5, there will be the problem of not enough easy wins to go around for every
program whose spoiled fans demand 9 or more wins every year and won't accept regularly going 5-7 or worse vs. a no-cupcake schedule.

4) Some busy people will have to spend a lot of time and energy away from their real jobs to set up this new organization that will administer non-NCAA college football. That includes some new group to make rules and enforce them, unless this is going to be the wild wild west with no restrictions on money or academics or whether the football players are students at the university whose uniform they wear.

I would think that the rulebook could, and should, be greatly streamlined to the point where compliance could be accomplished by an annual audit (paid for by the school) by a qualified CPA firm such as Price Waterhouse. This would require, as a ticket to play, that athletes would have to give the auditing firm access to things like tax records. And representatives of the schools would have to grant access to things like phone records, test scores and grades.
08-05-2019 01:50 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 01:50 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-05-2019 11:55 AM)Wedge Wrote:  P5 programs, or anyone else, can already take their football programs outside the NCAA. Many schools already have a sport or two that isn't under the NCAA umbrella -- rugby is one example. There would be a few complications for football, such as:

1) Either entire conferences would need to do it, or a school would have to find a new conference affiliation for all of its other sports. The Big Ten isn't going to let Ohio State remain a member if the Buckeyes withdraw their football program from the conference.

2) There would have to be a critical mass of schools starting this new non-NCAA affiliation all at once, so that there's a large enough pool of opponents for scheduling.

3) Also, if the breakaway group includes only P5 programs, or only a subset of P5, there will be the problem of not enough easy wins to go around for every
program whose spoiled fans demand 9 or more wins every year and won't accept regularly going 5-7 or worse vs. a no-cupcake schedule.

4) Some busy people will have to spend a lot of time and energy away from their real jobs to set up this new organization that will administer non-NCAA college football. That includes some new group to make rules and enforce them, unless this is going to be the wild wild west with no restrictions on money or academics or whether the football players are students at the university whose uniform they wear.

I would think that the rulebook could, and should, be greatly streamlined to the point where compliance could be accomplished by an annual audit (paid for by the school) by a qualified CPA firm such as Price Waterhouse. This would require, as a ticket to play, that athletes would have to give the auditing firm access to things like tax records. And representatives of the schools would have to grant access to things like phone records, test scores and grades.

I think you are overly optimistic about universities agreeing to give an auditor a level of access that is several orders of magnitude more intrusive than what they now disclose to the NCAA.
08-05-2019 02:30 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
The NCAA has rules for but doesn't really "sponsor" FBS football. It is handled very different than all other NCAA sports.
08-05-2019 04:46 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 04:46 PM)bullet Wrote:  The NCAA has rules for but doesn't really "sponsor" FBS football. It is handled very different than all other NCAA sports.

Call it what you will. I'm talking about the NCAA having nothing at all to do with FBS football. No rules, no oversight, no nothing.
08-05-2019 08:19 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 08:19 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-05-2019 04:46 PM)bullet Wrote:  The NCAA has rules for but doesn't really "sponsor" FBS football. It is handled very different than all other NCAA sports.

Call it what you will. I'm talking about the NCAA having nothing at all to do with FBS football. No rules, no oversight, no nothing.

That's pretty much the case if you are North Carolina!
08-06-2019 05:16 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.
08-06-2019 08:11 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-06-2019 08:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.

Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.
08-07-2019 08:06 AM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-07-2019 08:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 08:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.

Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.

I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.
08-08-2019 09:44 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 09:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-07-2019 08:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 08:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.

Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.

I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.

Would the NCAA accommodate the breakaway group that easily?

On the one hand, the NCAA might want to compromise in order to keep the P5 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament, because the NCAA would have to cut away nearly all its bureaucracy if it lost the $800 million/year it takes in from March Madness. On the other hand, if the P5 succeeds in forming this new organization, then once they have gone to the trouble of setting up their new bureaucracy, why limit it to football?

Think about where the money is. The P5 already keeps almost all the money from the CFP. There's some more money to be made there, but their new organization would get a much bigger pile of cash (compared to what they have now) by starting their own basketball tournaments and keeping the lion's share of those huge TV contracts. They wouldn't have to make it a P5-only tournament; they could keep the Cinderella appeal by inviting about 20 NCAA teams to their tournament, or invite no-football conferences like the Big East to join the new organization founded by the P5. Think of the 10 or 20 best non-P5 basketball teams, and ask if they would rather compete in the tournament that has Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., or the tournament that has no P5 teams. Everyone knows the answer to that.

It would be a huge mess for the NCAA. They have become so dependent on March Madness as their almost-exclusive source of funding that they would be in chaos without it. If the NCAA ever lost both the P5 and March Madness, the NCAA would become a shadow of what it is today.

So, IMO the NCAA would figure out that a P5 departure, even if it starts as a football-only thing, likely means an eventual end to the vast majority of the NCAA's revenue and power. They would do what they could to stop it, and if they couldn't stop it, then they would do anything they could to make things more difficult, and do nothing to cooperate with the P5.
08-08-2019 10:42 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 10:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 09:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-07-2019 08:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 08:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.

Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.

I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.

Would the NCAA accommodate the breakaway group that easily?

On the one hand, the NCAA might want to compromise in order to keep the P5 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament, because the NCAA would have to cut away nearly all its bureaucracy if it lost the $800 million/year it takes in from March Madness. On the other hand, if the P5 succeeds in forming this new organization, then once they have gone to the trouble of setting up their new bureaucracy, why limit it to football?

Think about where the money is. The P5 already keeps almost all the money from the CFP. There's some more money to be made there, but their new organization would get a much bigger pile of cash (compared to what they have now) by starting their own basketball tournaments and keeping the lion's share of those huge TV contracts. They wouldn't have to make it a P5-only tournament; they could keep the Cinderella appeal by inviting about 20 NCAA teams to their tournament, or invite no-football conferences like the Big East to join the new organization founded by the P5. Think of the 10 or 20 best non-P5 basketball teams, and ask if they would rather compete in the tournament that has Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., or the tournament that has no P5 teams. Everyone knows the answer to that.

It would be a huge mess for the NCAA. They have become so dependent on March Madness as their almost-exclusive source of funding that they would be in chaos without it. If the NCAA ever lost both the P5 and March Madness, the NCAA would become a shadow of what it is today.

So, IMO the NCAA would figure out that a P5 departure, even if it starts as a football-only thing, likely means an eventual end to the vast majority of the NCAA's revenue and power. They would do what they could to stop it, and if they couldn't stop it, then they would do anything they could to make things more difficult, and do nothing to cooperate with the P5.

Joining was voluntary. Leaving will be as well.
08-08-2019 11:00 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 11:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 10:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 09:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-07-2019 08:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 08:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.

Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.

I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.

Would the NCAA accommodate the breakaway group that easily?

On the one hand, the NCAA might want to compromise in order to keep the P5 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament, because the NCAA would have to cut away nearly all its bureaucracy if it lost the $800 million/year it takes in from March Madness. On the other hand, if the P5 succeeds in forming this new organization, then once they have gone to the trouble of setting up their new bureaucracy, why limit it to football?

Think about where the money is. The P5 already keeps almost all the money from the CFP. There's some more money to be made there, but their new organization would get a much bigger pile of cash (compared to what they have now) by starting their own basketball tournaments and keeping the lion's share of those huge TV contracts. They wouldn't have to make it a P5-only tournament; they could keep the Cinderella appeal by inviting about 20 NCAA teams to their tournament, or invite no-football conferences like the Big East to join the new organization founded by the P5. Think of the 10 or 20 best non-P5 basketball teams, and ask if they would rather compete in the tournament that has Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., or the tournament that has no P5 teams. Everyone knows the answer to that.

It would be a huge mess for the NCAA. They have become so dependent on March Madness as their almost-exclusive source of funding that they would be in chaos without it. If the NCAA ever lost both the P5 and March Madness, the NCAA would become a shadow of what it is today.

So, IMO the NCAA would figure out that a P5 departure, even if it starts as a football-only thing, likely means an eventual end to the vast majority of the NCAA's revenue and power. They would do what they could to stop it, and if they couldn't stop it, then they would do anything they could to make things more difficult, and do nothing to cooperate with the P5.

Joining was voluntary. Leaving will be as well.

Right, anyone can leave voluntarily. But if the question is whether the NCAA will cooperate with a breakaway that will lead to the NCAA's power diminishing to about the level of the NAIA, the answer is no.
08-08-2019 11:08 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 11:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 11:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 10:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 09:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-07-2019 08:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.

I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.

Would the NCAA accommodate the breakaway group that easily?

On the one hand, the NCAA might want to compromise in order to keep the P5 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament, because the NCAA would have to cut away nearly all its bureaucracy if it lost the $800 million/year it takes in from March Madness. On the other hand, if the P5 succeeds in forming this new organization, then once they have gone to the trouble of setting up their new bureaucracy, why limit it to football?

Think about where the money is. The P5 already keeps almost all the money from the CFP. There's some more money to be made there, but their new organization would get a much bigger pile of cash (compared to what they have now) by starting their own basketball tournaments and keeping the lion's share of those huge TV contracts. They wouldn't have to make it a P5-only tournament; they could keep the Cinderella appeal by inviting about 20 NCAA teams to their tournament, or invite no-football conferences like the Big East to join the new organization founded by the P5. Think of the 10 or 20 best non-P5 basketball teams, and ask if they would rather compete in the tournament that has Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., or the tournament that has no P5 teams. Everyone knows the answer to that.

It would be a huge mess for the NCAA. They have become so dependent on March Madness as their almost-exclusive source of funding that they would be in chaos without it. If the NCAA ever lost both the P5 and March Madness, the NCAA would become a shadow of what it is today.

So, IMO the NCAA would figure out that a P5 departure, even if it starts as a football-only thing, likely means an eventual end to the vast majority of the NCAA's revenue and power. They would do what they could to stop it, and if they couldn't stop it, then they would do anything they could to make things more difficult, and do nothing to cooperate with the P5.

Joining was voluntary. Leaving will be as well.

Right, anyone can leave voluntarily. But if the question is whether the NCAA will cooperate with a breakaway that will lead to the NCAA's power diminishing to about the level of the NAIA, the answer is no.

The thieving bastards don't need a 1 billion dollar endowment. They keep promoting FCS schools to keep those who are feeding off of the P schools beholden. If NCAA basketball faces a case like OU/UGA it's all over for the NCAA. We just need someone appointed to make sure that the Billion dollars in endowments are divided fairly between those departing and those remaining.
(This post was last modified: 08-08-2019 11:23 PM by JRsec.)
08-08-2019 11:19 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 11:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  If NCAA basketball faces a case like OU/UGA it's all over for the NCAA.

That's true. If the P5 and/or other major basketball programs started a rival basketball tournament and sued to challenge the NCAA rule that D-I schools invited to March Madness can't participate in another tournament, the NCAA would lose. They know they would lose, because the NIT already sued the NCAA to challenge that rule, and the NCAA had to buy the NIT to make the lawsuit go away. That rule is gone as soon it's challenged by anyone who can't be bought by the NCAA.
08-08-2019 11:34 PM
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