(01-05-2019 11:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Just swap VT and Syracuse with the current divisions and call it a day. It's the perfect zipper at that point.

Each division has a team in Florida.
Each division has a team in SC/GA.
Each division has two teams in NC.
Each division has a team in VA
Each division has a "midwest" team (Pitt & Louisville)
Each division has a team in the NE.

VT gets UVA as their protected rival, Syracuse gets BC & Louisville and Pitt can renew their Big East rivalry.

Works for me.

(01-04-2019 05:42 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(11-11-2018 06:21 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(11-11-2018 06:16 PM)CvilleDukes Wrote:  The Coastal becomes the Big East minus Virginia. As a UVA fan this would be the worst realignment. I think the ACC needs to get rid of divisions or start playing cross division teams more often. It’s ridiculous to only play a cross division team in your conference at home once in six years. Might as well be in a different conference at that point.

You got it. Finally a voice of reason.
Divisions should be Big East + FSU vs ACC from 1990.

But all conferences should:
1) get rid of divisions
2) play 9 conference games (5 permanent opps), this way everyone plays each other in 2 year span
3) conf champ game is #1 vs #2 in conference

the current CCG rules do not allow for this

you can only match the two best teams in the CCG if you play a full CONFERENCE round robin

if you do not play a full conference round robin then the only way you can have a CCG is to play in divisions and play a DIVISIONAL round robin and then you must match the winners of those divisions in the CCG

the Big 10 specifically made those rules changes so that the ACC would not be able to play in three divisions of five and then match the two best teams in the conference in the CCG.......after the Big 10 pushed that rules change the ACC was so upset they voted against any changes to the CCG format even though the ACC was the one that actually first proposed it even before the Big 12

most people on this forum actually thought the Big 10 was doing that to screw the Big 12, but the reality is the Big 12 is the only conference that can currently do either of those options

laughably the Big 10 now wishes they could match the two best teams in the conference, but they are too stupid to actually remember the rules they proposed and passed

I know the rule, just figured it would be changed. It was shortsighted thinking by B10 as usually happens in sports. I know they didn't want the ACC to create cupcake schedules for Clemson and FSU but they could have legislated against that. These guys are all lawyers but seem to be unable to grasp any ability to write up contracts and negotiate parameters.

(01-05-2019 11:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Just swap VT and Syracuse with the current divisions and call it a day. It's the perfect zipper at that point.

Each division has a team in Florida.
Each division has a team in SC/GA.
Each division has two teams in NC.
Each division has a team in VA
Each division has a "midwest" team (Pitt & Louisville)
Each division has a team in the NE.

VT gets UVA as their protected rival, Syracuse gets BC & Louisville and Pitt can renew their Big East rivalry.

I think it shifts the balance of power even more to the Atlantic division, so I don't think it would fly once you start needing buy-in from the respective schools. As a VT fan though, it'd be better for our home schedules if you can alternate the Clemson & FSU games in respective years.

Our home schedule next year is really rough - Furman, ODU, likely another FCS team (since we dropped ECU), WF, Duke, UNC, Pitt. Yikes!

Another thing to think about - not sure losing the annual VT/Miami game would be worth the tradeoff. Despite both programs in current down cycles, it's still an important game for the league's inventory. I guess annual VT/Clemson and VT/FSU games could be considered an upgrade overall for the league inventory, but again, that division becomes even more of a meatgrinder if the Hokies can right the ship.

I think the league office likes the current setup, they're just hoping that VT & Miami can get things back together. Combinations of VT/Miami vs. Clemson/FSU in the ACC Championship are the league office's dream scenarios... it just hasn't happened that often (only 5 of the 14 years since '05 expansion).

(01-05-2019 12:45 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Nerdlinger's alignment is truly the best alignment for the current set up. Ideally the ACC would add Notre Dame and WVU as full members in the Big East Legacy Division and UVA could move over with the ACC founders.

Protected crossovers:
UVA/VT
FSU/Miami

Problem with that is having 2 fixed 8-team divisions with an 8-game schedule means any team with a protected crossover can't play any other teams in the opposite division in conference play.

(01-05-2019 11:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Just swap VT and Syracuse with the current divisions and call it a day. It's the perfect zipper at that point.

Each division has a team in Florida.
Each division has a team in SC/GA.
Each division has two teams in NC.
Each division has a team in VA
Each division has a "midwest" team (Pitt & Louisville)
Each division has a team in the NE.

VT gets UVA as their protected rival, Syracuse gets BC & Louisville and Pitt can renew their Big East rivalry.

Good logic.

New games:

VaTech vs. Clemson, FSU, Louisville, NC State
Syracuse vs. Miami

Games lost:

VaTech vs. Miami, Pitt

The possibility of a UVa-VaTech and Syracuse-BC rematch exists. I don’t think there is a way around that unless Pitt switches with either BC or Syracuse.

Summary of alternate alignments

(1) Near-geographic alignment: Revised crossovers from the OP. All but FSU/Miami and UNC/UVA could rotate every schedule cycle though.

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Clemson/Louisville
Duke/Syracuse
Florida State/Miami-FL
Georgia Tech/Pittsburgh
NC State/Boston College
North Carolina/Virginia
Wake Forest/Virginia Tech


(2) Compromise alignment: Not geographic, so NC-4 are split, but improves annual matchups over existing alignment (e.g., Miami can play BC and Syracuse, Louisville can play Pitt, FSU doesn't have to make as many trips to the Northeast).

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Louisville/Boston College
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Pittsburgh/Syracuse
Virginia/Virginia Tech


(3) Alternating pairs alignment: Similar to compromise alignment, but BC+Louisville and Pitt+Syracuse alternate between divisions every 2 years. The 4 alternating teams all play one another every year. Permits full conference playthrough for all teams in 4 years max.

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Virginia/Virginia Tech

ALTERNATING
Boston College/Syracuse
Louisville/Pittsburgh


(4) Alternating trios alignment: The pods of 3 alternate between divisions every 2 years. Each team in a pod of 3 plays its pod mates and a protected crossover in the other pod of 3 annually, and all other teams an average of once every 2 years. Each team in a pod of 4 plays its pod mates and a protected crossover in the other pod of 4 annually, the teams in pods of 3 an average of once every 2 years, and the non-protected teams in the other pod of 4 an average of once every 3 years. Downside: besides potentially confusing fans, prevents annual Clemson/FSU matchup, which may be a dealbreaker.

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Clemson/Georgia Tech
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Virginia/Virginia Tech

ALTERNATING
Boston College/Louisville
Miami-FL/Florida State
Syracuse/Pittsburgh


(5) Divisionless alignment: Unlike the other scenarios, this would of course require an NCAA rule change to implement if the ACC wants to retain its CCG. However, near maximum schedule variety and minimum conference playthrough time while maintaining the most important annual matchups. Each team has 3 protected opponents (below) and alternates between half the other 10 every 2 years.



NOTE: In all scenarios, I've worked with the existing 14 football members, kept the conference schedule at 8 games, and tried to maintain competitive balance. Let me know what you think! Can you come up with some better solutions besides the existing alignment?

~~~~~~

BONUS!

If the ACC were to go to 9 conference games, having 2 protected crossovers might be feasible. Consider my near-geographic alignment (#1) under this scenario:

Atlantic
Clemson: Louisville, Virginia Tech
Duke: Syracuse, Virginia
Florida State: Miami-FL, Louisville
Georgia Tech: Pittsburgh, Miami-FL
NC State: Boston College, Pittsburgh
North Carolina: Virginia, Syracuse
Wake Forest: Virginia Tech, Boston College

Coastal
Boston College: NC State, Wake Forest
Louisville: Clemson, Florida State
Miami-FL: Florida State, Georgia Tech
Pittsburgh: Georgia Tech, NC State
Syracuse: Duke, North Carolina
Virginia: North Carolina, Duke
Virginia Tech: Wake Forest, Clemson

Most of the crossovers are arbitrary, so with this alignment it's probably better just to stick to one protected crossover and have 2 rotating ones.


My "compromise" alignment (#2) under this scenario:

Atlantic
Clemson: Georgia Tech, Miami-FL
Florida State: Miami-FL, Georgia Tech
Louisville: Syracuse, Virginia Tech
NC State: Wake Forest, Duke
North Carolina: Duke, Wake Forest
Pittsburgh: Boston College, Syracuse
Virginia: Virginia Tech, Boston College

Coastal
Boston College: Pittsburgh, Virginia
Duke: North Carolina, NC State
Georgia Tech: Clemson, Florida State
Miami-FL: Florida State, Clemson
Syracuse: Louisville, Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech: Virginia, Louisville
Wake Forest: NC State, North Carolina

All 4 NC teams get to play each other every year, as do all 4 southernmost teams, while retaining balanced divisions and without requiring pods. And double conference playthrough (home and away) in 10 years instead of 12.

BTW, the Coastal here is the private schools plus the "Tech"s, while the Atlantic is all the non-"Tech" public schools. This was not by design, although I don't much see a downside. It might even help some fans remember the divisions better.

Agree that all FBS conferences should change the rules for CCG and get rid of divisions, but..

If the rules stay the same, then the ACC should change to non-permanent rotating divisions. Have one set of divisions in odd number years and a different set in even number years, with the 2 different sets rotating every 2 years.

If the ACC is ever able to just scrap the division structure completely, and simply anoint its two highest-rated teams to play in a CCG, of course they should and would do exactly that. But in the meantime....

Clemson
Duke
NC State
UNC
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest

Boston College
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Miami/FL
Pittsburgh
Syracuse

No annual cross-over games. Play teams in the other division on all equal frequency.

(07-04-2019 01:03 PM)goofus Wrote:  Agree that all FBS conferences should change the rules for CCG and get rid of divisions, but..

If the rules stay the same, then the ACC should change to non-permanent rotating divisions. Have one set of divisions in odd number years and a different set in even number years, with the 2 different sets rotating every 2 years.

Intriguing concept! What would your 2 alignments look like?

(07-04-2019 01:06 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  If the ACC is ever able to just scrap the division structure completely, and simply anoint its two highest-rated teams to play in a CCG, of course they should and would do exactly that. But in the meantime....

Clemson
Duke
NC State
UNC
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest

Boston College
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Miami/FL
Pittsburgh
Syracuse

No annual cross-over games. Play teams in the other division on all equal frequency.

I like it! However, I think everyone wants access to Florida, so you'd probably have to separate FSU and Miami. Also, no protected crossovers means Clemson can't play either FSU or GT every year, which might be problematic. Duke and GT would have to end their annual series too, but that's not as important.

So basically the ACC feels like 2 different conferences. Wonder why.

(07-04-2019 01:06 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  If the ACC is ever able to just scrap the division structure completely, and simply anoint its two highest-rated teams to play in a CCG, of course they should and would do exactly that. But in the meantime....

Clemson
Duke
NC State
UNC
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest

Boston College
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Miami/FL
Pittsburgh
Syracuse

No annual cross-over games. Play teams in the other division on all equal frequency.

Absolutely not. We aren't going to be willing to give up GT and FSU, especially for annual games with the two blues and kid sister UVA.

The problem starts in NC with Duke, NC State, UNC, and WF. UNC has to continue to play UVa, WF should go back to playing VT. NC State wants to continue playing Clemson every year but in reality it needs a break.

Based on the most recent results something like this for the next six years would be fair:

BC - Syracuse
Louisville - WF
UVa - VT
UNC - NC State
Duke - GT
FSU - Clemson
Miami - Pitt

No real parity can exist with just two divisions. It takes at least three with a semi-final played at the homes of the two highest ranked teams.

You are tossing a bone to the weakest divisions and to the strongest second place finisher.

(07-04-2019 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  The problem starts in NC with Duke, NC State, UNC, and WF. UNC has to continue to play UVa, WF should go back to playing VT. NC State wants to continue playing Clemson every year but in reality it needs a break.

Based on the most recent results something like this for the next six years would be fair:

BC - Syracuse
Louisville - WF
UVa - VT
UNC - NC State
Duke - GT
FSU - Clemson
Miami - Pitt

No real parity can exist with just two divisions. It takes at least three with a semi-final played at the homes of the two highest ranked teams.

You are tossing a bone to the weakest divisions and to the strongest second place finisher.

Not bad, but again, having the Florida schools in the same division might be objectionable. I think it would be nice to have Duke/WF, Miami/Syracuse, Louisville/Pitt, and FSU/GT as annual though.

Alignments (2), (3), and (4) of mine above have VT and WF in the same division. Any merit in those?

Disregarding competitive balance and the need to split the Florida schools, the (non-rotating) 2-division alignment that I think would make everyone the happiest is this:

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Boston College/Wake Forest
Florida State/Clemson
Louisville/NC State
Miami-FL/Georgia Tech
Pittsburgh/North Carolina
Syracuse/Duke
Virginia Tech/Virginia

The Coastal is relatively weak, while FSU has to play more northern teams than they'd probably like, but overall not terrible.

A solution in search of a problem.

(07-04-2019 03:51 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  A solution in search of a problem.

So the ACC's existing divisions and schedule structure are ideal in your opinion? For all the schools?

Whether they like it or not, the ACC schools are already competing with UCF and USF so why not do this:

Pod I: Pitt, Cuse, BC, UCF

Pod II: UVA, UNC, Duke, Miami

Pod III: NC St, WF, VT, USF

Pod VI: Clemson, GT, L'ville, Florida St

Each Season 2 pods are paired to form a division for 7 divisional games, and an 8th conference game would be played, potentially with a rival that is not in their pod/temporary division for the year (VT vs UVA)

Everyone ends up with a road game in sunny Florida by splitting the Florida teams among the pods.

Those pods don't have to be set in stone and could certainly be tweaked.

(07-04-2019 10:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Whether they like it or not, the ACC schools are already competing with UCF and USF so why not do this:

Pod I: Pitt, Cuse, BC, UCF

Pod II: UVA, UNC, Duke, Miami

Pod III: NC St, WF, VT, USF

Pod VI: Clemson, GT, L'ville, Florida St

Each Season 2 pods are paired to form a division for 7 divisional games, and an 8th conference game would be played, potentially with a rival that is not in their pod/temporary division for the year (VT vs UVA)

Everyone ends up with a road game in sunny Florida by splitting the Florida teams among the pods.

Those pods don't have to be set in stone and could certainly be tweaked.

I don't know that there's evidence that UCF and USF are drawing significant resources from FSU and Miami, but if true, elevating them to the ACC will only exacerbate the competition.

(07-04-2019 04:01 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-04-2019 03:51 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  A solution in search of a problem.

So the ACC's existing divisions and schedule structure are ideal in your opinion? For all the schools?

They’re close. Virginia Tech is an old SoCon team with much more in common with the ACC than the Big East. Any talk of them placed in a “Big East” Division is nonsense. Why don’t you do an alternate history of realignment where VaTech and WVU were admitted to the ACC at its inception, like the mean ol’ Tar Heels pushed for?

IMO, the only better outcome from having divisions is a true zipper which maximizes TV games and rivalries. So some sort of swap between VaTech/Pitt and BC/Syracuse.

My out of the box solution which basically copies off the Big Ten’s one permanent rival:

UVa
VaTech
UNC
Duke
NC State
Wake
GaTech————Clemson
————————FSU
————————Miami
————————BC
————————Syracuse
————————Pitt
————————Louisville

Clemson gains Pitt and Miami, but loses NC State and Wake yearly.

FSU gains Pitt, but loses NC State and Wake yearly. They now cycle through the opposite division teams more, except for GaTech, which I believe would stay the same.