Does the creation of the P5 a new division essentially effect the G5 or FCS more.

The G5 is less relevant with no real chance of an national title.
The new second tier status is going to have a long term effect.
If and its likely none are promoted the ceiling has been lowered for these programs.New media deals seem to be mostly streaming weekday games.

FCS is now the third tier like the old D2 with D1 basketball privileges .
The media coverage is almost non existent mostly streaming.
The playoffs lose money for most schools championship game gets low tier bowl coverage .

As a whole everything below P5 is less relevant than before this new era.
Conference networks, Playoffs, P5 separation are all fairly new .
The top of each category is better off than the majority .
Top G5 do pretty well for now top FCS are better off than most of G5.

I doubt an actual separation is coming. The P5 already has an effective legislative separation with autonomy and they already had virtual full control of the post season CFP apparatus---so any need for an an actual separation is really largely eliminated. A full separation would be profoundly damaging to the G5---mainly because the general public only cares about the top level of college football. Despite the defacto separation---the general public do still regard the better performing G5's of any given year as relevant and worth watching (you can see that in the TV ratings). So, to answer your question----IF there were a full separation----I suspect the G5 would suffer more than FCS under such a scenario. I think the general public would come to see the G5 as just another lower level of college sports that isnt worth watching. That would eventually demoralize their fan bases and donor base. A separation would be seriously bad news for most of the G5.

Strongly disagree. The biggest name teams have always had the lion's share of media and casual fan attention, but everyone who has been following the sport for more than a few years knows that all of college football has far more access to media (and fans) today than ever.

40 years ago, there were maybe 2 or 3 college football games a week on TV anywhere, and if you weren't at the stadium for your team's game, you could only listen on the radio. Many popular teams had 30-minute TV shows that aired on Sunday morning with highlights of Saturday's game, and it was the only way most of their fans could see video of their favorite team.

Every team outside the major conferences, and even some teams in major conferences, could go 20 years or more without ever having a live football game on national TV. Last season, you could be anywhere in the USA and watch Toledo vs. Ball State and San Jose State vs. Fresno State on live TV.

Back in the day, there were not many bowl games and non-power teams rarely played in one. Last season, 30 G5 teams played in bowl games and every one of those bowl games was on live nationwide TV.

Did casual fans used to care less about big name teams and more about non-power teams? Did sports media or casual fans ever pay as much attention to Ohio vs. Eastern Michigan as to Ohio State vs. Michigan? Of course not.

Agree with Wedge. According to most on this forum, my alma mater Cincinnati has zero media appeal and "does not move the meter". However, we are on national television in football and men's basketball nearly every week.

We're not on the same level as the "elite" programs (meaning 15-20 programs) but we have as much exposure and can recruit with a lot of schools in the middle of the P5.

(06-12-2019 10:27 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Strongly disagree. The biggest name teams have always had the lion's share of media and casual fan attention, but everyone who has been following the sport for more than a few years knows that all of college football has far more access to media (and fans) today than ever.

40 years ago, there were maybe 2 or 3 college football games a week on TV anywhere, and if you weren't at the stadium for your team's game, you could only listen on the radio. Many popular teams had 30-minute TV shows that aired on Sunday morning with highlights of Saturday's game, and it was the only way most of their fans could see video of their favorite team.

Every team outside the major conferences, and even some teams in major conferences, could go 20 years or more without ever having a live football game on national TV. Last season, you could be anywhere in the USA and watch Toledo vs. Ball State and San Jose State vs. Fresno State on live TV.

Back in the day, there were not many bowl games and non-power teams rarely played in one. Last season, 30 G5 teams played in bowl games and every one of those bowl games was on live nationwide TV.

Did casual fans used to care less about big name teams and more about non-power teams? Did sports media or casual fans ever pay as much attention to Ohio vs. Eastern Michigan as to Ohio State vs. Michigan? Of course not.

Im not sure what you are strongly disagreeing with. The two G5 games you just referenced probably wouldnt even be on linear TV today. There would be zero chance those games are on linear TV if there were a complete P5/G5 spearation. I have no doubt there would be streaming apps where you could watch G5 games and I suspect they would create some sort of G5 playoff that would be worth maybe a couple million to TV---but the American public has long ago spoken on how much they care about watching college football at any level other than the top level (be it FBS, University division, or some new P5 only division--the lower divisions have never been able to capture any interest). The AAC can put up 10-20 games a season with over a million viewers in the current landscape. I think that number would absolutely fall off the table if there were a G5/P5 split. Im a huge fan---and Im probably done with college sports (both p5 and G5) if such a split happens. Hard to see casual fans following a division in which the winner will not be the best team in the nation.

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 10:27 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Strongly disagree. The biggest name teams have always had the lion's share of media and casual fan attention, but everyone who has been following the sport for more than a few years knows that all of college football has far more access to media (and fans) today than ever.

40 years ago, there were maybe 2 or 3 college football games a week on TV anywhere, and if you weren't at the stadium for your team's game, you could only listen on the radio. Many popular teams had 30-minute TV shows that aired on Sunday morning with highlights of Saturday's game, and it was the only way most of their fans could see video of their favorite team.

Every team outside the major conferences, and even some teams in major conferences, could go 20 years or more without ever having a live football game on national TV. Last season, you could be anywhere in the USA and watch Toledo vs. Ball State and San Jose State vs. Fresno State on live TV.

Back in the day, there were not many bowl games and non-power teams rarely played in one. Last season, 30 G5 teams played in bowl games and every one of those bowl games was on live nationwide TV.

Did casual fans used to care less about big name teams and more about non-power teams? Did sports media or casual fans ever pay as much attention to Ohio vs. Eastern Michigan as to Ohio State vs. Michigan? Of course not.

Im not sure what you are strongly disagreeing with. The two G5 games you just referenced probably wouldnt even be on linear TV today. There would be zero chance those games are on linear TV if there were a complete P5/G5 spearation. I have no doubt there would be streaming apps where you could watch G5 games and I suspect they would create some sort of G5 playoff that would be worth maybe a couple million to TV---but the American public has long ago spoken on how much they care about watching college football at any level other than the top level (be it FBS, University division, or some new P5 only division--the lower divisions have never been able to capture any interest). The AAC can put up 10-20 games a season with over a million viewers in the current landscape. I think that number would absolutely fall off the table if there were a G5/P5 split. Im a huge fan---and Im probably done with college sports (both p5 and G5) if such a split happens. Hard to see casual fans following a division in which the winner will not be the best team in the nation.

I concur with this. All the folks asking for a P4 consolidation of 32-64 are fooling themselves thinking the people that follow a school left out would just become fans of another school. Those people would just tune out-- probably just watch the NFL or even another sports.

If the P5 does separate, I think the best thing to do is combine FCS with G5 and have their own deal. Bring FCS up to 70 scholarships and G5 down to 70. And FCS schools that cant, or dont want to go up to 70 can either drop to D2 or drop football.

Then I would take the champion of the G5/FCS division and automatically be in the P5 playoffs.

(06-12-2019 01:40 PM)lion1983 Wrote:  If the P5 does separate, I think the best thing to do is combine FCS with G5 and have their own deal. Bring FCS up to 70 scholarships and G5 down to 70. And FCS schools that cant, or dont want to go up to 70 can either drop to D2 or drop football.

Then I would take the champion of the G5/FCS division and automatically be in the P5 playoffs.

The one thing that WOULD happen is that the G5 would have to reorganize into ultra-regional conferences. There would simply be no reason (and no resources) for conferences that require travel over half a continent. To the extent that the top FCS schools make sense in this reorganization--maybe some of the strongest FCS schools move into that division where needed. Perhaps a league like the Big Sky might move into the division as a block. There will be no money difference to speak of---and little difference in coverage---but it might make sense geographically. I also wouldnt discount the possibility that some of the most financially challenged schools might see this as a good time to drop programs or move down as the lowered visibility of such a division may seem less worthy of thier current level of funding for them.

(06-12-2019 02:13 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 01:40 PM)lion1983 Wrote:  If the P5 does separate, I think the best thing to do is combine FCS with G5 and have their own deal. Bring FCS up to 70 scholarships and G5 down to 70. And FCS schools that cant, or dont want to go up to 70 can either drop to D2 or drop football.

Then I would take the champion of the G5/FCS division and automatically be in the P5 playoffs.

The one thing that WOULD happen is that the G5 would have to reorganize into ultra-regional conferences. There would simply be no reason (and no resources) for conferences that require travel over half a continent. To the extent that the top FCS schools make sense in this reorganization--maybe some of the strongest FCS schools move into that division where needed. Perhaps a league like the Big Sky might move into the division as a block. There will be no money difference to speak of---and little difference in coverage---but it might make sense geographically.

I think if that happened, there'd at least be a push for the top bball schools to associate...assuming fball is left for dead and can be de-emphasized. For a school like Memphis, MBB can support itself with profit put toward other sports.

(06-12-2019 02:23 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 02:13 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 01:40 PM)lion1983 Wrote:  If the P5 does separate, I think the best thing to do is combine FCS with G5 and have their own deal. Bring FCS up to 70 scholarships and G5 down to 70. And FCS schools that cant, or dont want to go up to 70 can either drop to D2 or drop football.

Then I would take the champion of the G5/FCS division and automatically be in the P5 playoffs.

The one thing that WOULD happen is that the G5 would have to reorganize into ultra-regional conferences. There would simply be no reason (and no resources) for conferences that require travel over half a continent. To the extent that the top FCS schools make sense in this reorganization--maybe some of the strongest FCS schools move into that division where needed. Perhaps a league like the Big Sky might move into the division as a block. There will be no money difference to speak of---and little difference in coverage---but it might make sense geographically.

I think if that happened, there'd at least be a push for the top bball schools to associate...assuming fball is left for dead and can be de-emphasized. For a school like Memphis, MBB can support itself with profit put toward other sports.

Possibly. The assumption being that the separation wouldnt be for basketball as well. My guess is trying to grab most of the basketball money is one of the only remaining reasons to bother separating (as my position is there is little left to gain from an actual separation once autonomy passed). I think a separation would unleash the anti-trust law suit that been talked about on message boards for years. At that point, the G5 would have absolutely nothing to lose.

I actually believe the G5 has gotten conferences better media and coverage. In addition, FCS vs FBS typically did not get broadcasted. Thanks to the conference networks, those games are getting coverage. For example, due to the addition of the ACC network and RSN are picking up more FCS games.

WM & Mary vs UVA (ACCN)
Western Carolina vs NCSU (RSN)
Furman vs VT (ACCN)
Citadel vs Ga Tech (RSN)
Buthane Cookman vs Miami (ACCN)

TV TBD (Imagine most if not all will are on ACCN or RSN)
Elon vs Wake
Deleware vs Pitt
Rhode Island vs VT
Alabama St vs FSU
Mercer vs UNC

Imagine SEC is very similar

(06-12-2019 01:32 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 10:27 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Strongly disagree. The biggest name teams have always had the lion's share of media and casual fan attention, but everyone who has been following the sport for more than a few years knows that all of college football has far more access to media (and fans) today than ever.

40 years ago, there were maybe 2 or 3 college football games a week on TV anywhere, and if you weren't at the stadium for your team's game, you could only listen on the radio. Many popular teams had 30-minute TV shows that aired on Sunday morning with highlights of Saturday's game, and it was the only way most of their fans could see video of their favorite team.

Every team outside the major conferences, and even some teams in major conferences, could go 20 years or more without ever having a live football game on national TV. Last season, you could be anywhere in the USA and watch Toledo vs. Ball State and San Jose State vs. Fresno State on live TV.

Back in the day, there were not many bowl games and non-power teams rarely played in one. Last season, 30 G5 teams played in bowl games and every one of those bowl games was on live nationwide TV.

Did casual fans used to care less about big name teams and more about non-power teams? Did sports media or casual fans ever pay as much attention to Ohio vs. Eastern Michigan as to Ohio State vs. Michigan? Of course not.

Im not sure what you are strongly disagreeing with. The two G5 games you just referenced probably wouldnt even be on linear TV today. There would be zero chance those games are on linear TV if there were a complete P5/G5 spearation. I have no doubt there would be streaming apps where you could watch G5 games and I suspect they would create some sort of G5 playoff that would be worth maybe a couple million to TV---but the American public has long ago spoken on how much they care about watching college football at any level other than the top level (be it FBS, University division, or some new P5 only division--the lower divisions have never been able to capture any interest). The AAC can put up 10-20 games a season with over a million viewers in the current landscape. I think that number would absolutely fall off the table if there were a G5/P5 split. Im a huge fan---and Im probably done with college sports (both p5 and G5) if such a split happens. Hard to see casual fans following a division in which the winner will not be the best team in the nation.

I concur with this. All the folks asking for a P4 consolidation of 32-64 are fooling themselves thinking the people that follow a school left out would just become fans of another school. Those people would just tune out-- probably just watch the NFL or even another sports.

Agreed. You're marginalizing millions of fans nationwide in that 32-64 school scenario and that definitely limits TV exposure and interest. I do believe it's conceivable that the top 80-90 schools that are committed to major college football could eventually separate from the NCAA and form a new coalition. That could also allow conferences to restructure sufficiently to restore some historic rivalries and reduce excessive travel costs.

I don't believe that we will see an actual separation. However, I understand the OP's point.

While it's true that there's more college football on TV than ever and even the fans of the smallest G5 programs have access to many (or even all) of their games nationally, we've seen many psychological studies in many walks of life where happiness is determine by your relative status with your peers as opposed to an improvement to the absolute status for yourself.

For instance, the average American today is better off than the average American 30 years ago in an absolute sense: we have access to technology that were barely a dream back then, housing is nicer, cars and other products are more efficient and much safer, etc.

However, virtually everyone measures their happiness in terms of their gains and losses compared to their peers. In an absolute sense, someone getting a 10% raise is an improvement. Yet, if that person's co-workers all receive a 25% raise, that person is generally unhappy. Psychologically, that person would actually be happier if they received a lower 5% raise and their co-workers didn't receive any raise at all. This is where psychology and human emotion are at odds with rational economic thinking.

Similarly, people have increasingly clustered in living by other people with similar demographics, particularly in terms of income and education. As a result, even the most affluent people in society (e.g. people that are in the top 5-10% of the income ladder )often don't feel that they're wealthy or even falling behind because they're comparing themselves to the people in their local towns and neighborhoods that are also at the top of the income ladder. They don't compare themselves to the overall population and say, "Wow! I'm fortunate to be in the top 10% of the richest country in the world!" Instead, they compare themselves to their similarly wealthy neighbors and say, "Man, we're falling behind everyone else that we know." "Keeping up with the Joneses" is a phrase because it's a very real and concrete phenomenon.

It's no different in college sports. Every G5 program is arguably better off today than a generation ago in an absolute sense (with maybe the exception of the old SWC and Big East members that got demoted), but the growth in the power and revenue of all of the P5 programs have been even greater, so the G5 has lost ground. It's very much a reflection of society overall where the gains at the top of the income spectrum have greatly outpaced those at the middle and lower levels of the income scale.

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Im not sure what you are strongly disagreeing with. The two G5 games you just referenced probably wouldnt even be on linear TV today.

Both of those games were on ESPN "linear" channels last season -- ESPN2 and ESPNU, respectively..

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Im a huge fan---and Im probably done with college sports (both p5 and G5) if such a split happens.

First, it's not going to happen because P5 teams' win totals would drop too much if they played all-P5 schedules. The popularity of the "name" teams relies heavily on winning consistently at some level, and not at .500.

Second, the effect you mentioned would be there but not as large as you think. A large number of CFB fans root for more than one team and/or just watch "big games" in general. I would bet, for example, that fans of the four SWC teams left out of the Big 12 did not stop watching CFB after that happened, and that many of them also root for the Horns or Aggies.

The Truce works well for both sides in which we pretend that two separate divisions are actually one division called FBS

Kent State gets to pretend that it’s at the same level as Ohio State for recruiting and promoting its athletics and Ohio State gets to count a win over Kent State as a worthy win that counts toward bowl eligibility.

(06-12-2019 03:40 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Im not sure what you are strongly disagreeing with. The two G5 games you just referenced probably wouldnt even be on linear TV today.

Both of those games were on ESPN "linear" channels last season -- ESPN2 and ESPNU, respectively..

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Im a huge fan---and Im probably done with college sports (both p5 and G5) if such a split happens.

First, it's not going to happen because P5 teams' win totals would drop too much if they played all-P5 schedules. The popularity of the "name" teams relies heavily on winning consistently at some level, and not at .500.

Second, the effect you mentioned would be there but not as large as you think. A large number of CFB fans root for more than one team and/or just watch "big games" in general. I would bet, for example, that fans of the four SWC teams left out of the Big 12 did not stop watching CFB after that happened, and that many of them also root for the Horns or Aggies.

There's zero reason to split football. If there is a split, its because of basketball where the NCAA controls the money.

(06-12-2019 02:30 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 02:23 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 02:13 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 01:40 PM)lion1983 Wrote:  If the P5 does separate, I think the best thing to do is combine FCS with G5 and have their own deal. Bring FCS up to 70 scholarships and G5 down to 70. And FCS schools that cant, or dont want to go up to 70 can either drop to D2 or drop football.

Then I would take the champion of the G5/FCS division and automatically be in the P5 playoffs.

The one thing that WOULD happen is that the G5 would have to reorganize into ultra-regional conferences. There would simply be no reason (and no resources) for conferences that require travel over half a continent. To the extent that the top FCS schools make sense in this reorganization--maybe some of the strongest FCS schools move into that division where needed. Perhaps a league like the Big Sky might move into the division as a block. There will be no money difference to speak of---and little difference in coverage---but it might make sense geographically.

I think if that happened, there'd at least be a push for the top bball schools to associate...assuming fball is left for dead and can be de-emphasized. For a school like Memphis, MBB can support itself with profit put toward other sports.

Possibly. The assumption being that the separation wouldnt be for basketball as well. My guess is trying to grab most of the basketball money is one of the only remaining reasons to bother separating (as my position is there is little left to gain from an actual separation once autonomy passed). I think a separation would unleash the anti-trust law suit that been talked about on message boards for years. At that point, the G5 would have absolutely nothing to lose.

Okay, yeah that makes some sense b/c at that point it's not a P5/G5 issue, but a P5/Div 1 stalemate...65 vs. 350+ or whatever it is now.

(06-12-2019 04:27 PM)bullet Wrote:  There's zero reason to split football. If there is a split, its because of basketball where the NCAA controls the money.

That's right. The NCAA doesn't just control the March Madness money. The NCAA siphons off an outrageous percentage of that money instead of giving it directly to the participating teams/conferences. This is how outrageous it is:

The current CBS/Turner TV contract pays the NCAA $10.8 billion over 15 seasons -- an average of $720 million per year.

For the 2019 tournament, for each "unit", the NCAA pays the team/conference that earned it $1.68 million spread out over 6 years -- meaning that the NCAA is making a ton of money on the interest accrued, when they should be paying the whole amount at once to the teams/conferences.

And even if the NCAA was paying each "unit" as a lump sum, it's not nearly enough money compared to how much the NCAA keeps. There are 134 units paid out, teams earn a unit for being in the tournament and one more for each game they win except the national final. That's 134 units, meaning that, even if the NCAA paid in a lump sum, they would be paying the participating teams/conferences a total of $225,120,000, or only about 31% of what the NCAA gets from CBS/Turner.

As I said, outrageous. And ripe for a breakaway, to get more money in the hands of the teams/conferences generating the value.

What would a fairer distribution look like? How about lump sum payments of $5 million for each team that makes the tournament but loses before the first Saturday/Sunday, and an additional $3 million for making it each round further, up to the final where each finalist would get $20 million. Sounds much better, right? Guess what, it's still not enough. That distribution would mean $526 million per year distributed to the participating teams/conferences, leaving the NCAA still withholding about $200 million per year.

(06-12-2019 03:40 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Im not sure what you are strongly disagreeing with. The two G5 games you just referenced probably wouldnt even be on linear TV today.

Both of those games were on ESPN "linear" channels last season -- ESPN2 and ESPNU, respectively..

(06-12-2019 12:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Im a huge fan---and Im probably done with college sports (both p5 and G5) if such a split happens.

First, it's not going to happen because P5 teams' win totals would drop too much if they played all-P5 schedules. The popularity of the "name" teams relies heavily on winning consistently at some level, and not at .500.

Second, the effect you mentioned would be there but not as large as you think. A large number of CFB fans root for more than one team and/or just watch "big games" in general. I would bet, for example, that fans of the four SWC teams left out of the Big 12 did not stop watching CFB after that happened, and that many of them also root for the Horns or Aggies.

lol...I have to admit to being fairly shocked those games made the linear ESPNU/ESPN2 cut.

(06-12-2019 06:27 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-12-2019 04:27 PM)bullet Wrote:  There's zero reason to split football. If there is a split, its because of basketball where the NCAA controls the money.

That's right. The NCAA doesn't just control the March Madness money. The NCAA siphons off an outrageous percentage of that money instead of giving it directly to the participating teams/conferences. This is how outrageous it is:

The current CBS/Turner TV contract pays the NCAA $10.8 billion over 15 seasons -- an average of $720 million per year.

For the 2019 tournament, for each "unit", the NCAA pays the team/conference that earned it $1.68 million spread out over 6 years -- meaning that the NCAA is making a ton of money on the interest accrued, when they should be paying the whole amount at once to the teams/conferences.

And even if the NCAA was paying each "unit" as a lump sum, it's not nearly enough money compared to how much the NCAA keeps. There are 134 units paid out, teams earn a unit for being in the tournament and one more for each game they win except the national final. That's 134 units, meaning that, even if the NCAA paid in a lump sum, they would be paying the participating teams/conferences a total of $225,120,000, or only about 31% of what the NCAA gets from CBS/Turner.

As I said, outrageous. And ripe for a breakaway, to get more money in the hands of the teams/conferences generating the value.

What would a fairer distribution look like? How about lump sum payments of $5 million for each team that makes the tournament but loses before the first Saturday/Sunday, and an additional $3 million for making it each round further, up to the final where each finalist would get $20 million. Sounds much better, right? Guess what, it's still not enough. That distribution would mean $526 million per year distributed to the participating teams/conferences, leaving the NCAA still withholding about $200 million per year.

the NCAA funds the tournaments and administration of all the other sports that to nor generate a net positive revenue out of that money they keep

of rowing and lacrosse and soccer were required to be revenue neutral for their championships then their championships would not exist