(04-29-2019 01:27 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  First I heard about it was about 20 posts ago.

Further back than mine. I responded to this:

"It was for all intents and purposes a job nobody wanted."

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(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  Yes. He turned down the HC position.

This is the 1st I saw of it.

It's not a huge secret that Fischer wanted Holmes to stay on. Never heard that Holmes was in the running for head coach- at least not a finalist.

(04-29-2019 02:56 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  Yes. He turned down the HC position.

This is the 1st I saw of it.

It's not a huge secret that Fischer wanted Holmes to stay on. Never heard that Holmes was in the running for head coach- at least not a finalist.

He wasn’t. This is quite honestly the dumbest thread I’ve read to date. It is like many on here are just hoping for William and Mary athletics to crash and burn so you can say i told you so. It’s ridiculous. I personally would have liked to see Tony have next year but without Pierce (and we would have been without Pierce) there’s no guarantee we would have been better than third in the conference. Huge wanted something different. Guess what? She was hired to make us better. If she screws it up, she goes. Quit with the constant moaning and groaning. Geez. I have personally been a part of a number of coach searches and guess what? If you aren’t one of about 30-40 schools there happen to be hundreds of coaches that dont want to even talk about your opening. I know nothing about Dane more than what I can read on the internet. Just give the dude a chance. If you want to keep your money in your pocket, do it. Nobody on here really cares. Hopefully I can avoid this thread from now on like I do the 2022 football recruiting thread. Though that one might be less useless.

(04-29-2019 07:46 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  

(04-29-2019 02:56 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  Yes. He turned down the HC position.

This is the 1st I saw of it.

It's not a huge secret that Fischer wanted Holmes to stay on. Never heard that Holmes was in the running for head coach- at least not a finalist.

He wasn’t. This is quite honestly the dumbest thread I’ve read to date. It is like many on here are just hoping for William and Mary athletics to crash and burn so you can say i told you so. It’s ridiculous. I personally would have liked to see Tony have next year but without Pierce (and we would have been without Pierce) there’s no guarantee we would have been better than third in the conference. Huge wanted something different. Guess what? She was hired to make us better. If she screws it up, she goes. Quit with the constant moaning and groaning. Geez. I have personally been a part of a number of coach searches and guess what? If you aren’t one of about 30-40 schools there happen to be hundreds of coaches that dont want to even talk about your opening. I know nothing about Dane more than what I can read on the internet. Just give the dude a chance. If you want to keep your money in your pocket, do it. Nobody on here really cares. Hopefully I can avoid this thread from now on like I do the 2022 football recruiting thread. Though that one might be less useless.

Amen.

(04-29-2019 08:52 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  

(04-29-2019 07:46 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  

(04-29-2019 02:56 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  Yes. He turned down the HC position.

This is the 1st I saw of it.

It's not a huge secret that Fischer wanted Holmes to stay on. Never heard that Holmes was in the running for head coach- at least not a finalist.

He wasn’t. This is quite honestly the dumbest thread I’ve read to date. It is like many on here are just hoping for William and Mary athletics to crash and burn so you can say i told you so. It’s ridiculous. I personally would have liked to see Tony have next year but without Pierce (and we would have been without Pierce) there’s no guarantee we would have been better than third in the conference. Huge wanted something different. Guess what? She was hired to make us better. If she screws it up, she goes. Quit with the constant moaning and groaning. Geez. I have personally been a part of a number of coach searches and guess what? If you aren’t one of about 30-40 schools there happen to be hundreds of coaches that dont want to even talk about your opening. I know nothing about Dane more than what I can read on the internet. Just give the dude a chance. If you want to keep your money in your pocket, do it. Nobody on here really cares. Hopefully I can avoid this thread from now on like I do the 2022 football recruiting thread. Though that one might be less useless.

Amen.

Well said

Good idea. Always best to avoid threads you don't like. A mbb news only thread was set up for that very purpose. Or, add to this thread and be sure to reply to a thousand words with a simple +1, or amen, or even +1,000.

(04-28-2019 08:03 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 07:43 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 07:40 PM)Paulbintheburg Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  

(04-26-2019 04:33 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Jon couldn’t stay. Tossing Tony was tossing Jon, regardless of whether he was offered a spot on the new staff, unless he got the HC position. Was that offered to him?

Yes. He turned down the HC position.

It was for all intents and purposes a job nobody wanted.

Yep. The number of coaches--HC and assistants--who said "no thanks" would blow your mind. Not speculation. Fact.

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I’m not doubting this - I’m not in the know. But I do wonder who would be the source of this information, and then be willing to share with others? Huge knows - and is obviously not going to share this. Is someone on the committee going to talk about how no one wanted the job ... doubtful. So who on the inside would both a) be in the circle to know the details about whom exactly was offered, and b) be willing to share something like that with others that, if true, makes our school / program look really bad? I’ve gotta assume there are a ton of casual conversations with all sorts of people before serious discussions begin about job details and such.


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Well this is not a "its on the internet so it must be true" sort of thing.

If you want to think differently because its a case of "the truth hurts" then I understand that.

Lets assume for a moment that there is no such info, just speculation (not the case, but lets assume), WM mens hoops was down and out for several years, in the Boyarges era(or as I refer to it, those years where I just handed WM money and the product did not match the description, a 6'10" center who favored 12' jumpers, a PG who couldn't make foul shots or a simple layup. a PF who couldn't do 5 pushups and was more interested in sketching comic books and having his father come on here and berate people who questioned his useless basketball player son for eating up a scholarship) you could go to games and if you spoke above a whisper the scant few people on the other side of the arena could hear you, and for decades the Tribe never even sniffed the title game of any conference they played in. Tony Shaver came in, and within 4 years the Tribe were playing George Mason on ESPN in the CAA Conf Championship game, that was back when the CAA was a top tier mid-conference, not the lowly "one bid, low seed conference" it is today.
Most of what could be deemed success in WM mens hoops has happened in the last 15 years under Tony Shavers watch, he was a missed jumper from making the NCAA's a few years ago, yet with all that, he is dumped and paid to not coach (swirl that one around, this isn't Texas or Bama we are talking about, who pulls this kind of thing all the time, because they have mountains of cash).
So now a supposed "Coaching Search" begins, with a "Committee", and they searched nationally far and wide, and they all came to the same conclusion, that an assistant coach at what is now a low tier program is the answer to getting to the NCAA Xanadu.

You're willing to buy all that?

If so, good for you, just keep in mind that is before the widely known info posted above. Williamsburg is not some sort of Metropolis, everyone is 3 degrees away from knowing someone.

(04-29-2019 07:46 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  

(04-29-2019 02:56 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  Yes. He turned down the HC position.

This is the 1st I saw of it.

It's not a huge secret that Fischer wanted Holmes to stay on. Never heard that Holmes was in the running for head coach- at least not a finalist.

He wasn’t. This is quite honestly the dumbest thread I’ve read to date. It is like many on here are just hoping for William and Mary athletics to crash and burn so you can say i told you so. It’s ridiculous. I personally would have liked to see Tony have next year but without Pierce (and we would have been without Pierce) there’s no guarantee we would have been better than third in the conference. Huge wanted something different. Guess what? She was hired to make us better. If she screws it up, she goes. Quit with the constant moaning and groaning. Geez. I have personally been a part of a number of coach searches and guess what? If you aren’t one of about 30-40 schools there happen to be hundreds of coaches that dont want to even talk about your opening. I know nothing about Dane more than what I can read on the internet. Just give the dude a chance. If you want to keep your money in your pocket, do it. Nobody on here really cares. Hopefully I can avoid this thread from now on like I do the 2022 football recruiting thread. Though that one might be less useless.

Well if you want to just wave green and gold pompoms, then you're correct this isn't the type of thread for you.

But calling things dumb because you choose to be in denial, adds nothing to the conversation, so you are probably better suited elsewhere.

(04-30-2019 06:53 AM)Paulbintheburg Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 08:03 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 07:43 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 07:40 PM)Paulbintheburg Wrote:  

(04-28-2019 03:41 PM)UmbrellaRiver Wrote:  Yes. He turned down the HC position.

It was for all intents and purposes a job nobody wanted.

Yep. The number of coaches--HC and assistants--who said "no thanks" would blow your mind. Not speculation. Fact.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I’m not doubting this - I’m not in the know. But I do wonder who would be the source of this information, and then be willing to share with others? Huge knows - and is obviously not going to share this. Is someone on the committee going to talk about how no one wanted the job ... doubtful. So who on the inside would both a) be in the circle to know the details about whom exactly was offered, and b) be willing to share something like that with others that, if true, makes our school / program look really bad? I’ve gotta assume there are a ton of casual conversations with all sorts of people before serious discussions begin about job details and such.


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Well this is not a "its on the internet so it must be true" sort of thing.

If you want to think differently because its a case of "the truth hurts" then I understand that.

Lets assume for a moment that there is no such info, just speculation (not the case, but lets assume), WM mens hoops was down and out for several years, in the Boyarges era(or as I refer to it, those years where I just handed WM money and the product did not match the description, a 6'10" center who favored 12' jumpers, a PG who couldn't make foul shots or a simple layup. a PF who couldn't do 5 pushups and was more interested in sketching comic books and having his father come on here and berate people who questioned his useless basketball player son for eating up a scholarship) you could go to games and if you spoke above a whisper the scant few people on the other side of the arena could hear you, and for decades the Tribe never even sniffed the title game of any conference they played in. Tony Shaver came in, and within 4 years the Tribe were playing George Mason on ESPN in the CAA Conf Championship game, that was back when the CAA was a top tier mid-conference, not the lowly "one bid, low seed conference" it is today.
Most of what could be deemed success in WM mens hoops has happened in the last 15 years under Tony Shavers watch, he was a missed jumper from making the NCAA's a few years ago, yet with all that, he is dumped and paid to not coach (swirl that one around, this isn't Texas or Bama we are talking about, who pulls this kind of thing all the time, because they have mountains of cash).
So now a supposed "Coaching Search" begins, with a "Committee", and they searched nationally far and wide, and they all came to the same conclusion, that an assistant coach at what is now a low tier program is the answer to getting to the NCAA Xanadu.

You're willing to buy all that?

If so, good for you, just keep in mind that is before the widely known info posted above. Williamsburg is not some sort of Metropolis, everyone is 3 degrees away from knowing someone.

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting I “buy”. No one believes that Huge fired Shaver because she already had Fischer lined up and he was her dream candidate. She decided to fire Shaver (Decision #1). She then found the best coach she could find who wanted to lead our program (Decision #2). These are separate decisions. It’s telling that 3/4 of your response to speculations / facts about the coaching search (Decision #2) is talking about how great Tony is (Decision #1). The emotions are still raw because many of us love Tony and all he did for our program. But it’s clear that those emotions are affecting how many of us are evaluating Decision #2.

Again, I’m not saying it’s not true that many coaches turned us down. In fact, I assume they did. If not, we didn’t search wide/high enough. I’m just challenging any implied statements that our program is a complete dumpster fire and no sensible / quality coach would ever want to be here.


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(04-29-2019 07:46 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  This is quite honestly the dumbest thread I’ve read to date.

It is like many on here are just hoping for William and Mary athletics to crash and burn so you can say i told you so.

I personally would have liked to see Tony have next year but without Pierce (and we would have been without Pierce) there’s no guarantee we would have been better than third in the conference.

Huge wanted something different. Guess what? She was hired to make us better. If she screws it up, she goes.

Quit with the constant moaning and groaning. Geez.

I know nothing about Dane more than what I can read on the internet. Just give the dude a chance.

If you want to keep your money in your pocket, do it. Nobody on here really cares.

I started the thread. I posted Jon’s bio put out by Elon. It speaks for itself, in terms of the accomplishments of the Shaver era, and the quality of Jon. If you think that that is the “dumbest”, don’t know what to tell you.

None of us on here want to see Tribe athletics crash and burn. I don’t want to say “I told you so” ... so you’re getting it in real time, as it happens, despite the chorus that keeps singing “move along”. In real time, another development is that Elon seems to have its act together in MBB, in part due to a guy that was here earlier this month. The green, gold, and silver dumpster is on fire, right now.

The “I personally would have liked Tony to have next year ... “ is having it both ways.

Huge was hired to make us better; not to screw it up. She screwed this up. There is no other rational conclusion.

Moaning and groaning? This hasn’t played out yet. The (fill in the blank) has not yet sung.

We’re all giving “the dude” aka Dane a chance. He’s been placed in an impossible situation. When the AD cans his ass in five years if he doesn’t make the Dance, I will defend him, just like I defend Shaver. Will you?

You should care that my wallet is closed. Somebody, or some other team at the College, will have to make up the difference caused by my actions, and those who have acted / will act like me.

Finally, just look at the schism in this community that this self-inflicted action has caused. That, alone, is cause for concern, no?

Taking emotions out of it for a minute. We traded down in terms of head coach and staff overall. People can argue this point, but there isn't a lot to argue with right now, and the new crew is just getting started. We have a bunch of players in the portal with one out the door and another seemingly right behind. We have zero verbal commitments from any recruit.

That is not what Huge wanted. If it is, she should be fired immediately. If she just made some poor assumptions, then put her on notice and keep moving ahead. Just know that people aren't going to forget how it went down.

The basketball program is NOT where it should be right now.

To everyone wishing this issue would just go away, feel free to read another thread. I, personally, will not let this issue die.

And that is not just because I want to say "I told you so." Honestly, if the new coaches come in next year and wow us (let's say upset a big conference opponent and get to the conference championship), then I will start the thread that says I was wrong about AD Huge. I would LOVE to eat my hat on this issue.

But, until then, I think we have to hold the AD and administration accountable for paying an extra $1.7 million to hire what seems to be a weaker coaching staff. I am not going to be quiet just so others can feel better and sing Hark Upon the Gale. Because if we don't hold the administration accountable now, then we will get the same mistake after the Fischer era ends.

Had Shaver gotten the chance to coach this team next year and disappointed again, the firing next year would have been more defensible (and would have saved us at least a third of the $1.7 million). I am not trying to "have it both ways." I don't know if I'd still agree with firing Shaver. It would depend on the body of work next year. But, it would be more defensible if he had been given that chance.

In my opinion, Huge came here with a Texas A&M mindset and just did not appreciate the history of W&M basketball and its unique position in the CAA.

And I hope I am wrong about everything I just wrote.

At the end of the day, I am just a fan with an opinion speaking out of fear that the program is now set back a decade or more (and we paid $1.7 million to do so). And AD Huge is the expert chosen by the College to do the right thing, so I respect the College's decision to make that hire.

AD Huge was hired to make hard decisions, and I promise to give her all the praise she deserves when those decisions bear fruit (or even when she makes understandable decisions that don't bear fruit). But, on this inexplicable decision, I will keep track of the results until I am proven wrong.

I look forward to my mea culpa.

For me, I guess that it's not that I want it to go away. Hating the firing, hating the way the firing went down, hating owing money on the old contract, losing players, hating the hire, and hating Huge are perfectly defensible and you are welcome to any of these feelings and opinions. I just can't stay in that rut. I've always been solutions oriented. Complaining about what has transpired is well trodden ground here. I don't see how continuing to point backwards is going to move the program forward. I'm much more interested in what Dane and his assistants are doing moving forward. I'm interested in debating recruiting, game day experience, play calling, scheme, team/community outreach. I'm interested in what fans and alumni can do to help move the program forward. I am interested in moves the athletic department does to move all the programs forward. I think we all want W&M to succeed.

I disagree with several posters a lot but I think...I hope...we all want Tribe Athletics to succeed. I don't live my life to be "right," and I cherish conversations that lead to me learning and being better informed. Some on here can't stand those who don't see things their way. It's cute.

I think Huge should be dismissed. I think her emotional and irrational decisions over, at minimum, the past few months are, at best, negligent. I don't need to see how the dominoes fall to come to that conclusion. Any success in MBB over the next few years will be in spite of her actions, not because of them. Dane has a tall order and I'm 100% behind him.

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(04-30-2019 07:52 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Huge was hired to make us better; not to screw it up. She screwed this up. There is no other rational conclusion.

This quote says a lot about this crowd. To be clear, we don't remotely know whether Huge screwed this up. Is it possible she did? Of course. Is it possible that keeping Shaver on for additional years could also have been a mistake? Of course. None of us have any idea, despite the fact that many on here want to tell us exactly what will happen in the future.

(04-30-2019 09:31 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 07:52 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Huge was hired to make us better; not to screw it up. She screwed this up. There is no other rational conclusion.

This quote says a lot about this crowd. To be clear, we don't remotely know whether Huge screwed this up. Is it possible she did? Of course. Is it possible that keeping Shaver on for additional years could also have been a mistake? Of course. None of us have any idea, despite the fact that many on here want to tell us exactly what will happen in the future.

Actually, your response says a lot about your frame of reference.

To be clear, I want this AD to succeed. I have agreed with everything / not disagreed with anything she has done that is public knowledge.

The firing of Tony Shaver was a screw-up ... and it’s a big screw-up.

As for “this crowd”, does that include John Feinstein and all the local reporters who basically said the same thing?

(04-30-2019 08:58 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  I'm interested in what fans and alumni can do to help move the program forward.

I am interested in moves the athletic department does to move all the programs forward.

I think we all want W&M to succeed.

I did my part to try to help the program move forward under Tony Shaver. Tony’s firing means that the AD and I are not singing from the same page on this. Also, in some respects, it was disrespectful to those efforts of a lot of people who believed in Tony Shaver, and tried to help him move the program forward. She can find other people to take my spot. I think that that is important to convey.

The firing of Shaver will likely have a negative effect on moving other programs forward because of the financial hit. That’s why having no donor in place to fund this hit is a head-scratcher.

Yes, I want the Indians to succeed.

(04-30-2019 09:54 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 08:58 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  I'm interested in what fans and alumni can do to help move the program forward.

I am interested in moves the athletic department does to move all the programs forward.

I think we all want W&M to succeed.

I did my part to try to help the program move forward under Tony Shaver. Tony’s firing means that the AD and I are not singing from the same page on this. Also, in some respects, it was disrespectful to those efforts of a lot of people who believed in Tony Shaver, and tried to help him move the program forward. She can find other people to take my spot. I think that that is important to convey.

The firing of Shaver will likely have a negative effect on moving other programs forward because of the financial hit. That’s why having no donor in place to fund this hit is a head-scratcher.

Yes, I want the Indians to succeed.

I guess that speaks to the different footings we find ourselves on. The common ground is we all want the best for the basketball program. Some feel that Tony Shaver was the basketball program. Some, like me, say Tony played a wonderful part in the growth of the program. But he isn't the program. I want to build on what all the previous coaches have achieved. That doesn't mean Tony couldn't grow and build here, but change and shakeup are inevitable. Time will tell if it was a wise move. Huge will be held accountable for decisions she's made. Comes with the job.

It pained me, but for the first since OTOD came to be I did donate to Tribe athletics. I could not even bring myself to donate to football because all athletic donations are fungible and I cannot stomach the thought of my contribution being used to pay Tony Shaver not to coach. Today I donated to VIMS instead. My contributions are not large, but it was important for me to vote my displeasure in this way.

I do not need to wait and see how Coach Fischer does in the coming seasons to evaluate Huge's decision to fire Shaver. Like Tribal said, any success MBB has going forward will be in spite of Huge flawed rationale and decision making, not because of it. I think we all agree Coach Fischer was no where on Huge's radar when she fired Shaver. She obviously over-estimated the attractiveness of the position. We traded the best coach we've had since Parkhill for a lottery ticket and a prayer. I do wish Coach Fischer and the players that stay success, but I'd be lying if I said my heart was in it like it was a few short weeks ago.

(04-30-2019 10:10 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 09:54 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 08:58 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  I'm interested in what fans and alumni can do to help move the program forward.

I am interested in moves the athletic department does to move all the programs forward.

I think we all want W&M to succeed.

I did my part to try to help the program move forward under Tony Shaver. Tony’s firing means that the AD and I are not singing from the same page on this. Also, in some respects, it was disrespectful to those efforts of a lot of people who believed in Tony Shaver, and tried to help him move the program forward. She can find other people to take my spot. I think that that is important to convey.

The firing of Shaver will likely have a negative effect on moving other programs forward because of the financial hit. That’s why having no donor in place to fund this hit is a head-scratcher.

Yes, I want the Indians to succeed.

I guess that speaks to the different footings we find ourselves on. The common ground is we all want the best for the basketball program. Some feel that Tony Shaver was the basketball program. Some, like me, say Tony played a wonderful part in the growth of the program. But he isn't the program. I want to build on what all the previous coaches have achieved. That doesn't mean Tony couldn't grow and build here, but change and shakeup are inevitable. Time will tell if it was a wise move. Huge will be held accountable for decisions she's made. Comes with the job.

I disagree to an extent. When you have a mid-major program with no pedigree, long-term history of success, scant resources, no NCAA tourney bids, no P5 affiliation, etc., a coach like Tony Shaver and what he personally was able to accomplish is the foundation of the program. If a P5 school fires a coach, next year's recruits aren't going to care so much because of the overall reputation, affiliation, and resources dedicated to that program. If my son is a mid-major recruit I'm taking a wait and see approach to WM without Shaver. With Shaver, we could go into a living room and say look at the trajectory of the program the past 6 yrs. We have momentum in the right direction, we're on the doorstep, come help us knock down the door. Without Shaver, you're asking recruits for a leap of faith. Trust a first time head coach, trust that Shaver wasn't the primary driving force behind all the recent success, trust a program with scant historical success will not fall back into the abyss. Shaver lent credibility and continuity to a program that had neither. I fear we lost both (short-term) when we lost him.