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(03-12-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 11:16 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  I'll change when I'm wrong.

You'll have to scratch one name off your Top Nation list, Finland's entire government resigned over escalating costs for their social safety nets-including Health Care. Whoopsidungle! Moron.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/world...signs.html

Finland has a parliamentary government. A center-right coalition was elected. The article says they resigned after "failing to push through an overhaul of social and health care programs." I feel like you're going from there to something like "Finland is in crisis because of their safety net." My takeaway is more like "Finnish politicians tried to mess with the safety net, and it failed because people really like having their basic needs guaranteed." So much of Europe would riot if a politician ran on "Let's implement US-style economic policy. Let's privatize healthcare and defund universities so tuition costs explode and people have to resort to massive amounts of debt in order to get a bachelor's degree, which also happens to be more or less a pre-requisite for managing to crack the middle class." The status quo is really bad!

Actually, health care AND education costs have exploded-since government funding was introduced. Just like what always happens when the government starts spending the taxpayers money, no accountability and less interest in keeping costs under control.

American higher education is a joke in this country, they have almost no incentive to keep rising costs under control. We need a staged reduction in state and federal funding of higher education-it'll probably take two decades to wean Michigan's public universities off Lansing's teats without them going into flatline, but it's absolutely necessary. Or tuition costs will keep on rising.

I paid $ 12/credit hour for tuition at WMU back in the early 1970's, it is $ 560/credit hour today. And don't tell me the cost of living has gone up 47 times since then, or you're dumber than even I imagine you are-and that's pretty damn dumb!!

(03-12-2019 02:00 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 11:16 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  I'll change when I'm wrong.

You'll have to scratch one name off your Top Nation list, Finland's entire government resigned over escalating costs for their social safety nets-including Health Care. Whoopsidungle! Moron.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/world...signs.html

Finland has a parliamentary government. A center-right coalition was elected. The article says they resigned after "failing to push through an overhaul of social and health care programs." I feel like you're going from there to something like "Finland is in crisis because of their safety net." My takeaway is more like "Finnish politicians tried to mess with the safety net, and it failed because people really like having their basic needs guaranteed." So much of Europe would riot if a politician ran on "Let's implement US-style economic policy. Let's privatize healthcare and defund universities so tuition costs explode and people have to resort to massive amounts of debt in order to get a bachelor's degree, which also happens to be more or less a pre-requisite for managing to crack the middle class." The status quo is really bad!

Actually, health care AND education costs have exploded-since government funding was introduced. Just like what always happens when the government starts spending the taxpayers money, no accountability and less interest in keeping costs under control.

American higher education is a joke in this country, they have almost no incentive to keep rising costs under control. We need a staged reduction in state and federal funding of higher education-it'll probably take two decades to wean Michigan's public universities off Lansing's teats without them going into flatline, but it's absolutely necessary. Or tuition costs will keep on rising.

I paid $ 12/credit hour for tuition at WMU back in the early 1970's, it is $ 560/credit hour today. And don't tell me the cost of living has gone up 47 times since then, or you're dumber than even I imagine you are-and that's pretty damn dumb!!

You're right that tuition costs are out of control. You're wrong that this is due to over-dependence on state funding. According to U of M, state support accounted for 78% of UM-Ann Arbor's general fund in 1960. In 2018 that number was 15%.

This is a similar quote from Western's website. "Rising student tuition is the direct result of falling state investment in higher education. Financial aid resources are being expanded to help reduce the impact. In 2002, WMU received approximately $125 million in annual support from the State of Michigan. By 2009, this amount had declined by $16 million to an annual appropriation of $109 million. This is a decline in state support in real dollars of approximately 13%."

Granted these are universities interested in increasing state funding, but the numbers are real. You're right that tuition is out of control. Your solution seems to be to privatize higher education. If you have any evidence that that would lower tuition costs, I'd love to see it. But it seems extremely unlikely.

Dear Boca Rocket,
Medicare is doing just fine. The vast majority on it like it. Same thing with Social Security. The scare tactics used to make people fearful of its collapse are shameful. The reason it is short funded is the fact that our congress through the years, has consistently taken funds from it to pay for other programs, and never repaid what was basically stolen.

Dear BroncoPhilly,
The State of Michigan has had a responsibility of paying for public education. The reason costs have skyrocketed is because the republican controlled legislatures and governors have continued to cut monies to them. Where have you been? Oh, but we can give funding to charter schools that are under no scrutiny whatsoever, and some are for profit. Yeah, that is good for our State.

Have to love late winter. Every one is ready to get outside. Cabin fever strikes. Nothing like a political discussion (or religion) to get the juices flowing and the angst out.

Just remember, contrary to what one member said, no one is right and no one is wrong. They are opinions after all. Some are based on prejudice, some on fear, some on bigotry, some on facts, some on political bent .... well, you get the idea. All matter of things affect our opinions. Have to admit this was a fairly civil discussion for the most part. It is ok to disagree.

(03-12-2019 03:06 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 02:00 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 11:16 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  I'll change when I'm wrong.

You'll have to scratch one name off your Top Nation list, Finland's entire government resigned over escalating costs for their social safety nets-including Health Care. Whoopsidungle! Moron.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/world...signs.html

Finland has a parliamentary government. A center-right coalition was elected. The article says they resigned after "failing to push through an overhaul of social and health care programs." I feel like you're going from there to something like "Finland is in crisis because of their safety net." My takeaway is more like "Finnish politicians tried to mess with the safety net, and it failed because people really like having their basic needs guaranteed." So much of Europe would riot if a politician ran on "Let's implement US-style economic policy. Let's privatize healthcare and defund universities so tuition costs explode and people have to resort to massive amounts of debt in order to get a bachelor's degree, which also happens to be more or less a pre-requisite for managing to crack the middle class." The status quo is really bad!

Actually, health care AND education costs have exploded-since government funding was introduced. Just like what always happens when the government starts spending the taxpayers money, no accountability and less interest in keeping costs under control.

American higher education is a joke in this country, they have almost no incentive to keep rising costs under control. We need a staged reduction in state and federal funding of higher education-it'll probably take two decades to wean Michigan's public universities off Lansing's teats without them going into flatline, but it's absolutely necessary. Or tuition costs will keep on rising.

I paid $ 12/credit hour for tuition at WMU back in the early 1970's, it is $ 560/credit hour today. And don't tell me the cost of living has gone up 47 times since then, or you're dumber than even I imagine you are-and that's pretty damn dumb!!

You're right that tuition costs are out of control. You're wrong that this is due to over-dependence on state funding. According to U of M, state support accounted for 78% of UM-Ann Arbor's general fund in 1960. In 2018 that number was 15%.

This is a similar quote from Western's website. "Rising student tuition is the direct result of falling state investment in higher education. Financial aid resources are being expanded to help reduce the impact. In 2002, WMU received approximately $125 million in annual support from the State of Michigan. By 2009, this amount had declined by $16 million to an annual appropriation of $109 million. This is a decline in state support in real dollars of approximately 13%."

Granted these are universities interested in increasing state funding, but the numbers are real. You're right that tuition is out of control. Your solution seems to be to privatize higher education. If you have any evidence that that would lower tuition costs, I'd love to see it. But it seems extremely unlikely.

It seems unlikely to you because you don't want to see the correllation. Western is better than most state universities at keeping costs under control, but that just means they're the shortest rock when the tide starts going out. There are TONS of things WMU and other state schools could do to lower costs, but why? The more they inflate their costs the bigger the funding they get from the state. Rather obvious, to thinking people.

(03-12-2019 03:10 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Boca Rocket,
Medicare is doing just fine. The vast majority on it like it. Same thing with Social Security. The scare tactics used to make people fearful of its collapse are shameful. The reason it is short funded is the fact that our congress through the years, has consistently taken funds from it to pay for other programs, and never repaid what was basically stolen.

Dear BroncoPhilly,
The State of Michigan has had a responsibility of paying for public education. The reason costs have skyrocketed is because the republican controlled legislatures and governors have continued to cut monies to them. Where have you been? Oh, but we can give funding to charter schools that are under no scrutiny whatsoever, and some are for profit. Yeah, that is good for our State.

Charter schools have higher test scores than public schools on lower funding. To a thinking person that would suggest that public schools need to be studying what charter schools are doing. I exclude you from that category.

(03-12-2019 03:30 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  Have to love late winter. Every one is ready to get outside. Cabin fever strikes. Nothing like a political discussion (or religion) to get the juices flowing and the angst out.

Just remember, contrary to what one member said, no one is right and no one is wrong. They are opinions after all. Some are based on prejudice, some on fear, some on bigotry, some on facts, some on political bent .... well, you get the idea. All matter of things affect our opinions. Have to admit this was a fairly civil discussion for the most part. It is ok to disagree.

Opinions are like azzholes, everybody has one. Doesn't mean you have to act like one.

Get over yourself.

(03-12-2019 05:17 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 03:06 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 02:00 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 11:16 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  I'll change when I'm wrong.

You'll have to scratch one name off your Top Nation list, Finland's entire government resigned over escalating costs for their social safety nets-including Health Care. Whoopsidungle! Moron.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/world...signs.html

Finland has a parliamentary government. A center-right coalition was elected. The article says they resigned after "failing to push through an overhaul of social and health care programs." I feel like you're going from there to something like "Finland is in crisis because of their safety net." My takeaway is more like "Finnish politicians tried to mess with the safety net, and it failed because people really like having their basic needs guaranteed." So much of Europe would riot if a politician ran on "Let's implement US-style economic policy. Let's privatize healthcare and defund universities so tuition costs explode and people have to resort to massive amounts of debt in order to get a bachelor's degree, which also happens to be more or less a pre-requisite for managing to crack the middle class." The status quo is really bad!

Actually, health care AND education costs have exploded-since government funding was introduced. Just like what always happens when the government starts spending the taxpayers money, no accountability and less interest in keeping costs under control.

American higher education is a joke in this country, they have almost no incentive to keep rising costs under control. We need a staged reduction in state and federal funding of higher education-it'll probably take two decades to wean Michigan's public universities off Lansing's teats without them going into flatline, but it's absolutely necessary. Or tuition costs will keep on rising.

I paid $ 12/credit hour for tuition at WMU back in the early 1970's, it is $ 560/credit hour today. And don't tell me the cost of living has gone up 47 times since then, or you're dumber than even I imagine you are-and that's pretty damn dumb!!

You're right that tuition costs are out of control. You're wrong that this is due to over-dependence on state funding. According to U of M, state support accounted for 78% of UM-Ann Arbor's general fund in 1960. In 2018 that number was 15%.

This is a similar quote from Western's website. "Rising student tuition is the direct result of falling state investment in higher education. Financial aid resources are being expanded to help reduce the impact. In 2002, WMU received approximately $125 million in annual support from the State of Michigan. By 2009, this amount had declined by $16 million to an annual appropriation of $109 million. This is a decline in state support in real dollars of approximately 13%."

Granted these are universities interested in increasing state funding, but the numbers are real. You're right that tuition is out of control. Your solution seems to be to privatize higher education. If you have any evidence that that would lower tuition costs, I'd love to see it. But it seems extremely unlikely.

It seems unlikely to you because you don't want to see the correllation. Western is better than most state universities at keeping costs under control, but that just means they're the shortest rock when the tide starts going out. There are TONS of things WMU and other state schools could do to lower costs, but why? The more they inflate their costs the bigger the funding they get from the state. Rather obvious, to thinking people.

If this were true, wouldn't we see private schools offering lower tuition costs than public schools? Seems the *exact opposite* is true.

Ha Ha Ha. BP you are a comedian You also have your facts wrong.

Charter schools produce some of the worse test scores in the state and at best perform no better than public schools. This has been documented Like all such things there are always flyers and a few charters have performed well. All this while having he ability to reject ESL students, special needs students and under performing students. So they take the cream of the crop and perform no better than public schools. I'm thinking perhaps they should be looking a public schools and try to emulate their success. There have been several studies supporting this.

BTW, you might try taking your own advice. "Get over yourself" already. You might also try not acting like an ass hat. I somehow thing that isn't going to happen :)

(03-12-2019 05:21 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  

(03-12-2019 03:30 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  Have to love late winter. Every one is ready to get outside. Cabin fever strikes. Nothing like a political discussion (or religion) to get the juices flowing and the angst out.

Just remember, contrary to what one member said, no one is right and no one is wrong. They are opinions after all. Some are based on prejudice, some on fear, some on bigotry, some on facts, some on political bent .... well, you get the idea. All matter of things affect our opinions. Have to admit this was a fairly civil discussion for the most part. It is ok to disagree.

Opinions are like azzholes, everybody has one. Doesn't mean you have to act like one.

Dude.

Go back through your own posts in this thread.

You can't be this oblivious.