Glad to see NoDak being eviscerated on other forums as well.

https://twitter.com/RedArmyOmaha/status/...4760805377

UNO fans aren't handling this well at all. Even the basketball play-by-play guy is saying the conference is looking awfully Dakota-heavy.
I hope the Summit doesn't invite Augustana. The only worse NCC call-up they could find is Morningside. They're tiny and were a complete afterthought in the NCC. It's already bad enough having most of the ESPN3 games produced by Midco and having to listen to the announcers do their best Hawk Harrelson impressions every game. This isn't D2, having a conference exist as a way for some old guy to bring entertainment and glory to his hometown won't sit well with people.
If Denver goes looking because of this, something tells me UNO will be looking along side them. It's a shame the NCAA put up such a large barrier to form your own conference, because that'd probably be the best solution for the two of them.

(01-30-2019 08:11 PM)Mav Wrote:  https://twitter.com/RedArmyOmaha/status/...4760805377
UNO fans aren't handling this well at all.
If Denver goes looking because of this, something tells me UNO will be looking along side them.

My feeling is:
1. Let's wait and see if Augie does get an invite. I suspect the Summit & Augie are doing some serious due diligence right now. Denny Sanford didn't get to be so rich by being dumb. If the numbers don't add up, they don't add up.
2. Denver administration might like having a private like Augie in the conference, even if Denver fans see things differently.
3. Stability is good. Ft. Wayne would leave yesterday if they could. Western Illinois might be looking longingly at the OVC where they might be more competitive. It has been commented that Denver is in the Summit out of necessity; they long to be in the WCC with west coast privates. One day all those dominoes might fall. The I-29 Conference looks to be stable, and that's good for UNO.
4. UNO needs to be playing the Dakota schools; there is history, proximity, and passion (esp. for UND). Horizon might look good on paper, but how excited are people going to be to play Wright State? UW-GB? Cleveland State? How many will take a road trip to Youngstown? And UNO is more likely to pick up enrollment from students in the Dakotas than Ohio.
5. If I remember, during the d1 transition the school has to prove to the NCAA that they can be successful or they don't get final approval to reclassify.
6. The Augie of today ain't the Augie of old. Last year they finished #16 in the d2 Learfield Cup out of 268 schools. They have clearly stepped up their game.

Besides, after talking to their stakeholders, Augie might decide not to make the jump. I doubt they can bring all 18 sports into d1. ORU has 14; Creighton has 14; and both those schools have been d1 a long time. Summit doesn't sponsor wrestling. Isn't Men's Soccer a requirement for the Summit. What happens to their Title IX balance if they drop scholarship football? Augie might decide dropping sports is too painful for their institution and that d2 does fits them best.

(01-30-2019 08:11 PM)Mav Wrote:  https://twitter.com/RedArmyOmaha/status/...4760805377

UNO fans aren't handling this well at all. Even the basketball play-by-play guy is saying the conference is looking awfully Dakota-heavy.
I hope the Summit doesn't invite Augustana. The only worse NCC call-up they could find is Morningside. They're tiny and were a complete afterthought in the NCC. It's already bad enough having most of the ESPN3 games produced by Midco and having to listen to the announcers do their best Hawk Harrelson impressions every game. This isn't D2, having a conference exist as a way for some old guy to bring entertainment and glory to his hometown won't sit well with people.
If Denver goes looking because of this, something tells me UNO will be looking along side them. It's a shame the NCAA put up such a large barrier to form your own conference, because that'd probably be the best solution for the two of them.

Let me preface by saying, I know of no SDSU fan who thinks Augustana moving up is a good thing. I'm sure they are out there, but they are likely the same crew who did not want SDSU to move up. That said, Omaha and DU both have a problem Hockey sucks the life out of Omaha's budget. In addition, Omaha has no place to go other then maybe the WAC. DU? Their odd mix of sports ensures that not a lot of leagues will ever show interest. They can choose the WAC or SL.

Sit back. I'm almost positive it takes a unanimous vote to approve a school moving to the SL. I think the reason nothing has been announced and no invite given, there is not unanimous support to add them. SDSU and USD are not likely to want them to move up. NDSU wants nothing to do with them. The schools outside the region are not interested in a tiny, financially strapped school in the Dakotas moving up.

Right now it is all speculation. The silence from the SL offices is deafening. I do not think it is the done deal that Kelby Krabbenhoft wants it to be.

I think the reason that ADs and university presidents might have more enthusiasm than fans for a potential Augie move-up is that they remember not very long ago the Summit's existence was at risk. When UMKC bolted, the best reason I've heard for their surprising decision is that they feared an imminent collapse of the Summit. On this very fanboard that possibility was seriously discussed. The Horizon has poached 10 teams from the Summit since 1994. 8 of the current 10 Horizon teams are Summit alumni. You might as well call the Horizon: "The Summit League eastern division".

It seems that the Summit is trying get beyond the Horizon's reach. They have found a niche along I-29 with "the North Central Conf 2.0". They have 5 schools in a compact footprint from UND to UNO. Augie would make a 6th. (UMKC will make a 7th.) This gives the conference survive-ability if the other schools move on to what they perceive are greener pastures. Rule of the Jungle #1: survive. That is why I think the Summit gives Augie a real close look.

Maybe, but I do not think Augustana is who the current members schools, at least the larger Dakota schools have in mind. Augustana would become the third D1 school in SD, the third within a 100 mile stretch. A school with less then 2,000 students. A school that has not grown in decades and was an afterthought in the old NCC days.

I don't think the non-Dakota schools are interested in a fifth Dakota school. Of the old NCC, only Mankato or UNC interest me at all. I would like to see the league go away from the Dakota's. The league became more stable with the addition of UND, Augustana is not needed and I believe the addition would do more harm then good.

(01-31-2019 01:28 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  I think the reason that ADs and university presidents might have more enthusiasm than fans for a potential Augie move-up is that they remember not very long ago the Summit's existence was at risk. When UMKC bolted, the best reason I've heard for their surprising decision is that they feared an imminent collapse of the Summit. On this very fanboard that possibility was seriously discussed. The Horizon has poached 10 teams from the Summit since 1994. 8 of the current 10 Horizon teams are Summit alumni. You might as well call the Horizon: "The Summit League eastern division".

It seems that the Summit is trying get beyond the Horizon's reach. They have found a niche along I-29 with "the North Central Conf 2.0". They have 5 schools in a compact footprint from UND to UNO. Augie would make a 6th. (UMKC will make a 7th.) This gives the conference survive-ability if the other schools move on to what they perceive are greener pastures. Rule of the Jungle #1: survive. That is why I think the Summit gives Augie a real close look.

Augie is not a home run. But, if the numbers work out, they might help protect the conference if other schools leave. And really, how many options does the Summit have? I'd love to see Drake come to the Summit and give Denver another quality private school to hang with. I'd love UNI to be in the Summit, and could argue a move to the Summit could help UNI attract more students from Minnesota (which UNI could use). But that's not happening. Big fish eat little fish, not the other way around. P5s eat G5s who eat high majors (MVC) who eat mid majors (Horizon) who eat low majors (Summit). 7 of 9 Summit teams are recent d2 move ups (within 20 years).

Who else is out there yearning to join the Summit? I think St. Thomas MN should be d1, not beating up on tiny d3 schools. But they seem to like beating up on tiny schools. I wouldn't mind Univ Northern Colo joining the Summit. So what's stopping them? Maybe they like hanging around other Mountain schools. I wouldn't mind Mankato. But they have football and 18 sports teams- so you know what that means- painful choices. They're probably, "That's OK, were doing alright in d2. Thanks for asking."

Augie is not the dream school. But it's addition (if it can find the $$) might overall help solidify the conference. So it's worth considering.

If Augustana indeed has big donors behind them the public announcement of their desire to move up was a signal for the Dakota schools and company to start naming their price in terms of donations to give Augustana the vote in.

I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

Wait. It's not good for a school with 2,000 students to go D1 but it is good for Upper Iowa to go D1 with 700 students.

(02-02-2019 12:50 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

Wait. It's not good for a school with 2,000 students to go D1 but it is good for Upper Iowa to go D1 with 700 students.

Right, because sometimes 700 is bigger than 2,000.

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

So if a guy finds himself out of work in the DFW metro he should go to a Liberal Arts SMU and fork over stupid high tuition to retrain himself for the workforce? There's really no better option?

(02-02-2019 03:04 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

So if a guy finds himself out of work in the DFW metro he should go to a Liberal Arts SMU and fork over stupid high tuition to retrain himself for the workforce? There's really no better option?

There are other options like UTA and North Texas at D1.

(02-02-2019 07:46 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 03:04 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

So if a guy finds himself out of work in the DFW metro he should go to a Liberal Arts SMU and fork over stupid high tuition to retrain himself for the workforce? There's really no better option?

There are other options like UTA and North Texas at D1.

Someone who is not working will more likely go to an affordable community college. UTA is about $10,000 in tuition and fees. Yeah, that's the answer; "I have no income so I will spend thousands of dollars I don't have or increase my debt with student loans to attend a D1 school."

(02-02-2019 08:01 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 07:46 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 03:04 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

So if a guy finds himself out of work in the DFW metro he should go to a Liberal Arts SMU and fork over stupid high tuition to retrain himself for the workforce? There's really no better option?

There are other options like UTA and North Texas at D1.

Someone who is not working will more likely go to an affordable community college. UTA is about $10,000 in tuition and fees. Yeah, that's the answer; "I have no income so I will spend thousands of dollars I don't have or increase my debt with student loans to attend a D1 school."

Azcats, here’s the crazy thing: you would be correct if we were talking about the ‘80’s and the ‘90s. But, and here’s the catch: DavidSt is actually more correct than you are, crazy as it sounds. And here’s how it is done: Pell Grants & student loans. I kid you not.

(02-02-2019 10:28 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 08:01 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 07:46 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 03:04 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I would look at other D2 prospects. I am not sold for any small schools to move to D1. They need to attract more students. Look at schools like SMU, Baylor and other big schools? They opened their enrollments for older people and not just for 18-22 crowd. These schools could actually serve their communities for higher education for people who lost their jobs, and need to get a better education because of plant closures and all that. Sioux Falls and Augustana should do that.

So if a guy finds himself out of work in the DFW metro he should go to a Liberal Arts SMU and fork over stupid high tuition to retrain himself for the workforce? There's really no better option?

There are other options like UTA and North Texas at D1.

Someone who is not working will more likely go to an affordable community college. UTA is about $10,000 in tuition and fees. Yeah, that's the answer; "I have no income so I will spend thousands of dollars I don't have or increase my debt with student loans to attend a D1 school."

Azcats, here’s the crazy thing: you would be correct if we were talking about the ‘80’s and the ‘90s. But, and here’s the catch: DavidSt is actually more correct than you are, crazy as it sounds. And here’s how it is done: Pell Grants & student loans. I kid you not.

He just brought up student loans, and it's hard to think of much worse things to do when you're out of work than to come up with a way to put yourself even deeper in debt. Non-traditional students going to schools like that are normally working and taking classes part-time or receiving other benefits like disability to get by.

(02-02-2019 10:33 PM)Mav Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 10:28 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 08:01 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 07:46 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 03:04 PM)Shox Wrote:  So if a guy finds himself out of work in the DFW metro he should go to a Liberal Arts SMU and fork over stupid high tuition to retrain himself for the workforce? There's really no better option?

There are other options like UTA and North Texas at D1.

Someone who is not working will more likely go to an affordable community college. UTA is about $10,000 in tuition and fees. Yeah, that's the answer; "I have no income so I will spend thousands of dollars I don't have or increase my debt with student loans to attend a D1 school."

Azcats, here’s the crazy thing: you would be correct if we were talking about the ‘80’s and the ‘90s. But, and here’s the catch: DavidSt is actually more correct than you are, crazy as it sounds. And here’s how it is done: Pell Grants & student loans. I kid you not.

He just brought up student loans, and it's hard to think of much worse things to do when you're out of work than to come up with a way to put yourself even deeper in debt. Non-traditional students going to schools like that are normally working and taking classes part-time or receiving other benefits like disability to get by.

Didn’t read all of AZcats’ post very thoroughly, but still my point is this and this is coming from someone who was married to an individual who had a lot of debt in student loans: it didn’t affect her in the least until she started thinking about going to college again; then it became a problem for her because she told me she couldn’t go back to college until she paid off her student loans. I graduated from a community college myself, and the type of students that you mentioned Mav, I saw a lot of them. They inspired me, and I graduated from a community college and a four year university. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with going the community college route. Fortunately, I have no student loans whatsoever. My dad and a scholarship paid for my college education.

(02-02-2019 11:24 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I graduated from a community college and a four year university. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with going the community college route. Fortunately, I have no student loans whatsoever. My dad and a scholarship paid for my college education.

This brings the conversation back around (indirectly) to Augustana's desire to move up. I bumped into some articles recently that quantify that life is getting harder for Midwest private liberal arts schools due to declining enrollments- IOW, the pond Augustana has been swimming in is shrinking. Part of the decline is there are fewer 18 year olds. (my opinion: Part of the decline is universities "driving away" male students with their toxic politically correct anti-"white male, cis-gendered, hetero-normative, traditional values" agenda; university enrollment is now about 60% female, 40% male.) Now 50% of students begin their path to a 4 year degree at a 2 year school. That means universities are losing about 50% of their former tuition dollars. I believe Augustana has looked at the data and determined that they need to get out of the "d2-d3-naia pond" with so many competitors in the Midwest chasing a shrinking number of students and get into the Drake-Creighton pond. Competing for tuition paying students is the real competition here, not basketball or football.

PS. DawgNBama- congratulations on getting your degree debt-free. In today's world, that's no small thing.

I think it's in the best interest of the Summit to pass on Augustana. I think they are too small to be competitive and the Summit has better expansions out there that they can pursue.

(02-03-2019 04:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think it's in the best interest of the Summit to pass on Augustana. I think they are too small to be competitive and the Summit has better expansions out there that they can pursue.

Last season, despite playing a D-II schedule, Augustana was the second-highest drawing basketball program in the Dakotas. Here are the average home-game attendance figures:

2,757 North Dakota State
2,421 Augustana
2,292 South Dakota State
2,269 South Dakota
1,865 North Dakota

I was also surprised to find that Augustana out-drew every Summit League school outside the Dakotas:

2,411 Oral Roberts
2,366 Omaha
1,403 Fort Wayne
1,204 Denver
602 Western Illinois

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketba...ndance.pdf

So it appears to me that, at least in terms of its fan base and community support, Augustana isn’t at all too small to be considered for addition to the Summit.