(01-14-2019 06:14 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-14-2019 03:34 PM)JMU08 Wrote:  Saban was amazing at every location he went to. Also would say, personally, what MH did at the cit was more impressive than what he did here given the challenges he faced.

KB is a good coach, but he's not great. Anybody that said otherwise was just putting on the purple shades. That being said, he's not on the hot seat. They made it the WNIT finals last year and he keeps showing positive trajectory for their program. As long as he can keep showing improvement, he's fine.

I guess the difference between "good", "very very good" and "great" are somewhat subjective terms.

Kenny gave us 6 NCAA trips, 5 WNIT, and was 29-6, 29-4, 27-5 his last 3 years at JMU. I would be ecstatic if a JMU MBB coach could get us remotely close to what he did here. Sure, no sweet 16's or better, but he put us in the hunt nationally, and made us dominant in the CAA. And yes, Shelia M was even better, but that doesn't diminish his performance.

You heard it here first, Coach O will rival KB's accomplishments.

(01-14-2019 01:48 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-14-2019 01:37 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(01-14-2019 01:22 PM)orange-to-purple Wrote:  WBB is not as important to VT as MBB. That's just a fact. Kenny will be given a couple more years to undo the damage done by previous coaches. The ACC is a hella competitive league in WBB since Notre Dame got in there and VT has a long ways to go, the only direction being up. There's a bit of a difference between that and MBB in a mid-major, non-P5 conference. Un-knot thy drawers.

ehhh....my drawers are not knotted whatsover.....actually 'free-balling' today for your info.

But I am over KB, take off thy purple shaded glasses (or is it just a KB man-crush) he is simply not getting it done at the top level as a coach. KB is a good coach, but perhaps his level is the mid-major level. Winners win regardless of level and sport they coach.

I think it is a misperception that good coaches can "go anywhere" and win. The dynamics of a winning program are more than that, and part of the reason it is so tough for us to turn around MBB.

Rip Scherer : great coach (at JMU)
Withers : good/decent coach (at JMU)
Houston : amazing coach (at JMU), good/decent (at Citadel), ECU ???
KB : great coach (at JMU)

3 of those 4 have struggled elsewhere, and it wasn't just about the "level" ... schools also play a factor in success, with everything from facilities and fan support to ability to attract talent.

KB could return to JMU and look like a great coach again. Good chance he will succeed at VT, but its a much harder path there, and not just because of the conference. It is hard to pull a team out of the gutter.

There are a lot of coaches who have changed schools and failed. Just look at every VCU basketball coach who left VCU for more money. None of them have yet to replicate the same success elsewhere and to date, all were fired before their first contract expired. Did they all somehow become bad coaches overnight?

There is more to a teams success then just the head coach and his abilities..

so Kenny and the VT woman are now 0-7 in the acc after a close loss to #22 FSU.

fortunately, they have some winnable games upcoming Pitt(0-7), BC (2-5), Duke (1-6), GT (3-4), UVa (2-6) & WF (2-6)

dont get me wrong, Kenny is a great coach and he will ultimately be successful at VT. that said, there is a built in advantage at JMU vs. the rest of the CAA that makes it easier to win at JMU. When coaches leave JMU, they are generally joining a school where they dont have that inherent advantage. They are coaching on a more even playing field, making success a bit more challenging.

It won't get any easier. The ACC is brutal. As I mentioned last week, he does have a 5* post player coming in next year which should help tremendously if she plays and develops to the hype. The Hokies really are missing a post presence which in the ACC can be a significant disadvantage.

Also, in support of the new cable channel launching in August, ACC WBB moves from a 16-game conference schedule to an 18-game conference schedule starting next season so that's 2 more very competitive games (and possibly against the nation's elite like Notre Dame). VPI&SU should and likely will be patient with Kenny. In conferences other than the ACC and SEC, he could probably have his team in the upper half and competing for titles within 3-4 years. It will take longer in the ACC most likely.

(01-28-2019 07:02 PM)Wear Purple Wrote:  It won't get any easier. The ACC is brutal. As I mentioned last week, he does have a 5* post player coming in next year which should help tremendously if she plays and develops to the hype. The Hokies really are missing a post presence which in the ACC can be a significant disadvantage.

Also, in support of the new cable channel launching in August, ACC WBB moves from a 16-game conference schedule to an 18-game conference schedule starting next season so that's 2 more very competitive games (and possibly against the nation's elite like Notre Dame). VPI&SU should and likely will be patient with Kenny. In conferences other than the ACC and SEC, he could probably have his team in the upper half and competing for titles within 3-4 years. It will take longer in the ACC most likely.

He also has a 5 star guard sitting on the bench while his daughter is starting and shooting 28%....yikes

(01-29-2019 06:52 AM)dukesfan4010 Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:02 PM)Wear Purple Wrote:  It won't get any easier. The ACC is brutal. As I mentioned last week, he does have a 5* post player coming in next year which should help tremendously if she plays and develops to the hype. The Hokies really are missing a post presence which in the ACC can be a significant disadvantage.

Also, in support of the new cable channel launching in August, ACC WBB moves from a 16-game conference schedule to an 18-game conference schedule starting next season so that's 2 more very competitive games (and possibly against the nation's elite like Notre Dame). VPI&SU should and likely will be patient with Kenny. In conferences other than the ACC and SEC, he could probably have his team in the upper half and competing for titles within 3-4 years. It will take longer in the ACC most likely.

He also has a 5 star guard sitting on the bench while his daughter is starting and shooting 28%....yikes

Yeah, I noticed that the former JMU commit (Kenny's daughter Kendyl) has been entrenched in VT's starting lineup. You look at her stats though, and nothing really jumps out. Very low shooting %, and nothing above average in any statistical category. If you're playing 27 min a game, I would expect something more than 5 points a game. Maybe be a tremendous rebounder, or dish off a lot of assists, or tons of steals, blocks etc. I don't see it. Maybe she is a great leader/chemistry person?

It's a little misleading.

0-7 is 0-7 in ACC play, but

They lost to #1 ND
Lost in OT to #14 Syracuse
Lost at #8 NC State in OT
Lost to #22 Fla State by 2

They're close, but this is similar to prior years when they accumulated an impressive OOC record versus non top 25 teams, and then did not play well in the CAA.

(01-29-2019 11:56 AM)olddawg Wrote:  

(01-29-2019 06:52 AM)dukesfan4010 Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:02 PM)Wear Purple Wrote:  It won't get any easier. The ACC is brutal. As I mentioned last week, he does have a 5* post player coming in next year which should help tremendously if she plays and develops to the hype. The Hokies really are missing a post presence which in the ACC can be a significant disadvantage.

Also, in support of the new cable channel launching in August, ACC WBB moves from a 16-game conference schedule to an 18-game conference schedule starting next season so that's 2 more very competitive games (and possibly against the nation's elite like Notre Dame). VPI&SU should and likely will be patient with Kenny. In conferences other than the ACC and SEC, he could probably have his team in the upper half and competing for titles within 3-4 years. It will take longer in the ACC most likely.

He also has a 5 star guard sitting on the bench while his daughter is starting and shooting 28%....yikes

Yeah, I noticed that the former JMU commit (Kenny's daughter Kendyl) has been entrenched in VT's starting lineup. You look at her stats though, and nothing really jumps out. Very low shooting %, and nothing above average in any statistical category. If you're playing 27 min a game, I would expect something more than 5 points a game. Maybe be a tremendous rebounder, or dish off a lot of assists, or tons of steals, blocks etc. I don't see it. Maybe she is a great leader/chemistry person?

or maybe she is tight with the coach.

probably doesnt sit well with the other players. maybe no one else able to step up

Kenny cannot catch a break! A 2 point loss(!) to FSU, FFS! And many of his losses have been just about that. The ACC is a horrible place to coach.

I think this is year 3 for KB at VT - correct? (it may be year 2 but from memory think it is year 3).

Given that I would think it would be fair to judge KB along a similar standard as folks judge Louis Rowe.

Bottom line is this Wins/Losses are what matter period and even more importantly conference wins/losses. 0-7 in the ACC and tied for last place is the only stat that really matters. Who cares about the recruits and how good you supposedly recruit if you cannot produce conference wins.

If 3 years is enough for Louis Rowe to show progress and be competitive in the CAA then 3 years is enough for KB to do the same at VT.

Maybe KB would like to come back here and coach the men?

(01-30-2019 09:34 AM)JMURocks Wrote:  Maybe KB would like to come back here and coach the men?

no thanks

(01-30-2019 09:30 AM)ShadyP Wrote:  I think this is year 3 for KB at VT - correct? (it may be year 2 but from memory think it is year 3).

Given that I would think it would be fair to judge KB along a similar standard as folks judge Louis Rowe.

Bottom line is this Wins/Losses are what matter period and even more importantly conference wins/losses. 0-7 in the ACC and tied for last place is the only stat that really matters. Who cares about the recruits and how good you supposedly recruit if you cannot produce conference wins.

If 3 years is enough for Louis Rowe to show progress and be competitive in the CAA then 3 years is enough for KB to do the same at VT.

Big difference is that KB has a strong history as a head coach from his time at JMU while LR does not. Further, there is a humongous difference in the ACC being the #1 rated WBB conference in the nation while the CAA is currently ranked #18 in MBB. KB has some more winnable games coming up though 5 of their next 7 are on the road...starting with Thursday night at fellow-cellar dweller Pitt. If they can't/don't win at Pitt (9-12/0-7), then they are staring a potential 0-14 ACC record right in the face before they host UVA and Wake to finish the regular season.

Pretty sure Babcock will be giving KB likely 2 more years, though their performance this year I'm sure is raising plenty of doubt.

(01-28-2019 06:40 PM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  dont get me wrong, Kenny is a great coach and he will ultimately be successful at VT. that said, there is a built in advantage at JMU vs. the rest of the CAA that makes it easier to win at JMU. When coaches leave JMU, they are generally joining a school where they dont have that inherent advantage. They are coaching on a more even playing field, making success a bit more challenging.

Yeah, I don't know. Do we have an inherent advantage over the rest of the conference? If that were the case, then the utter and complete futility and collapse of the men's program at the same time that the women's program has surged would be even more depressing than it seems.

IMHO Kenny Brooks was the greatest coach ever at JMU -- for any sport.

(01-30-2019 10:15 AM)Wear Purple Wrote:  

(01-30-2019 09:30 AM)ShadyP Wrote:  I think this is year 3 for KB at VT - correct? (it may be year 2 but from memory think it is year 3).

Given that I would think it would be fair to judge KB along a similar standard as folks judge Louis Rowe.

Bottom line is this Wins/Losses are what matter period and even more importantly conference wins/losses. 0-7 in the ACC and tied for last place is the only stat that really matters. Who cares about the recruits and how good you supposedly recruit if you cannot produce conference wins.

If 3 years is enough for Louis Rowe to show progress and be competitive in the CAA then 3 years is enough for KB to do the same at VT.

Big difference is that KB has a strong history as a head coach from his time at JMU while LR does not. Further, there is a humongous difference in the ACC being the #1 rated WBB conference in the nation while the CAA is currently ranked #18 in MBB. KB has some more winnable games coming up though 5 of their next 7 are on the road...starting with Thursday night at fellow-cellar dweller Pitt. If they can't/don't win at Pitt (9-12/0-7), then they are staring a potential 0-14 ACC record right in the face before they host UVA and Wake to finish the regular season.

Pretty sure Babcock will be giving KB likely 2 more years, though their performance this year I'm sure is raising plenty of doubt.

Agree.....all I am saying is there are a lot of similarities and KB is now making a lot of $$$ to coach women's bball. With a much higher salary becomes higher expectations and accountability.

I think the argument saying how difficult it is to coach women's bball in the ACC is invalid. That is why the salary is so much more and I don't think you lower expectations just b/c you play in a tough conference. Just like JMU men's bball I don't think it is too much to ask to be a .500 team in your conference by year 3. I somehow don't think Whit Babccok is saying, it's ok that you are 0-7 in the ACC, Kenny.....we play in the #1 conference so just try to win 3 or 4 games in conference and that's will be 'ok'. One could argue it is worse to get these results with KB, since he was supposed to be a proven commodity with a strong track record. It is not like he is learning on the job like LR.

I have just slipped off the purple glasses and calling it like it is.......the W/L record doesn't lie and tells you EXACTLY what kind of job you are doing and takes the subjectivity out of it.

Couple of things:
1. VT's schedule was front-loaded, meaning the toughest conference games came first in a brutal conference. That can get discouraging and set a tone for the rest of the season. Also, as mentioned, some of the losses were really close.
2.Did you ever stop to think--he left his best assistant behind?? Of course, maybe he offered Coach O, who had the good sense to say no.

(01-30-2019 10:52 AM)orange-to-purple Wrote:  Couple of things:
1. VT's schedule was front-loaded, meaning the toughest conference games came first in a brutal conference. That can get discouraging and set a tone for the rest of the season. Also, as mentioned, some of the losses were really close.
2.Did you ever stop to think--he left his best assistant behind?? Of course, maybe he offered Coach O, who had the good sense to say no.

Hey, just making the comparison......
To counter in year 3:
1. Nobody cares anymore about close loses, W/L is what matters. Do close losses mean you just get out-coached in clutch time? I don't know but it is W/L that matters, close doesn't matter in year 3.
2. The buck stops with the HC, no one cares about the assistants. The assumption is that the HC has assembled a competent staff. If not that is back on the HC.

(01-30-2019 10:46 AM)Madison 91 Forever Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 06:40 PM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  dont get me wrong, Kenny is a great coach and he will ultimately be successful at VT. that said, there is a built in advantage at JMU vs. the rest of the CAA that makes it easier to win at JMU. When coaches leave JMU, they are generally joining a school where they dont have that inherent advantage. They are coaching on a more even playing field, making success a bit more challenging.

Yeah, I don't know. Do we have an inherent advantage over the rest of the conference? If that were the case, then the utter and complete futility and collapse of the men's program at the same time that the women's program has surged would be even more depressing than it seems.

IMHO Kenny Brooks was the greatest coach ever at JMU -- for any sport.

We fund the WBB at the top of the CAA and much higher nationally than MBB. Outside of football, the women's sports we have are funded better on a national scale than the majority of our men's sports.

For better or worse, most universities attempt to get away with the bare minimum in women's sports and that's just not how JMU does things. People wonder why our ladies have such success over time and our men don't. It's all about funding at a nationally competitive scale. Part of this is to offset the emphasis on football, and part of this is just the political stance we've taken.


Also would add that I think Shelley, Mickey Dean, Mike Houston, and Christy Morgan, were all greater coaches in their respective sports than KB. I think our Men's soccer coach could end up being the greatest of them all, but little early to tell.

(01-30-2019 10:15 AM)Wear Purple Wrote:  

(01-30-2019 09:30 AM)ShadyP Wrote:  I think this is year 3 for KB at VT - correct? (it may be year 2 but from memory think it is year 3).

Given that I would think it would be fair to judge KB along a similar standard as folks judge Louis Rowe.

Bottom line is this Wins/Losses are what matter period and even more importantly conference wins/losses. 0-7 in the ACC and tied for last place is the only stat that really matters. Who cares about the recruits and how good you supposedly recruit if you cannot produce conference wins.

If 3 years is enough for Louis Rowe to show progress and be competitive in the CAA then 3 years is enough for KB to do the same at VT.

Big difference is that KB has a strong history as a head coach from his time at JMU while LR does not. Further, there is a humongous difference in the ACC being the #1 rated WBB conference in the nation while the CAA is currently ranked #18 in MBB. KB has some more winnable games coming up though 5 of their next 7 are on the road...starting with Thursday night at fellow-cellar dweller Pitt. If they can't/don't win at Pitt (9-12/0-7), then they are staring a potential 0-14 ACC record right in the face before they host UVA and Wake to finish the regular season.

Pretty sure Babcock will be giving KB likely 2 more years, though their performance this year I'm sure is raising plenty of doubt.

Women's game and men's game are very different animals. If they weren't you'd see more coaches that were successful jumping from women's to men's basketball and vice-versa. Not saying that a coach couldn't make the jump but having success in one style doesn't mean much for the other. Kind of like saying an Arena league coach would be a great NFL coach, or a CFL guy would do well in the SEC. Different strategies, different kind of athletes, different mindset needed. High School and college football are more suited to the NFL than those other versions of American football are.

(01-30-2019 11:22 AM)JMaddy Wrote:  

(01-30-2019 10:15 AM)Wear Purple Wrote:  

(01-30-2019 09:30 AM)ShadyP Wrote:  I think this is year 3 for KB at VT - correct? (it may be year 2 but from memory think it is year 3).

Given that I would think it would be fair to judge KB along a similar standard as folks judge Louis Rowe.

Bottom line is this Wins/Losses are what matter period and even more importantly conference wins/losses. 0-7 in the ACC and tied for last place is the only stat that really matters. Who cares about the recruits and how good you supposedly recruit if you cannot produce conference wins.

If 3 years is enough for Louis Rowe to show progress and be competitive in the CAA then 3 years is enough for KB to do the same at VT.

Big difference is that KB has a strong history as a head coach from his time at JMU while LR does not. Further, there is a humongous difference in the ACC being the #1 rated WBB conference in the nation while the CAA is currently ranked #18 in MBB. KB has some more winnable games coming up though 5 of their next 7 are on the road...starting with Thursday night at fellow-cellar dweller Pitt. If they can't/don't win at Pitt (9-12/0-7), then they are staring a potential 0-14 ACC record right in the face before they host UVA and Wake to finish the regular season.

Pretty sure Babcock will be giving KB likely 2 more years, though their performance this year I'm sure is raising plenty of doubt.

Women's game and men's game are very different animals. If they weren't you'd see more coaches that were successful jumping from women's to men's basketball and vice-versa. Not saying that a coach couldn't make the jump but having success in one style doesn't mean much for the other. Kind of like saying an Arena league coach would be a great NFL coach, or a CFL guy would do well in the SEC. Different strategies, different kind of athletes, different mindset needed. High School and college football are more suited to the NFL than those other versions of American football are.

Yep. Agree they are different games. Point is though, getting into a race with a bunch of gazelles (ACC WBB) is very different from getting into a race with 1 or 2 horses and 7 or 8 snails (CAA MBB). The timeline for "getting good" in a rebuild is very different as well.

Side note, I still find it interesting that Ike is being given a 5th year. Is that foreshadowing what we will do with Rowe? If not, where is the consistency? A case can be made that Ike has failed harder than Rowe. Of course, again a big difference in revenue generation of the 2 sports as well as investment (UB&TC, for example).