The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

Notre Dame won’t be joining in either of our lifetimes. The fact that they made the CFP this year just reinforces their belief in staying quasi-independent.

I think it would take Notre Dame being left out of the playoffs at least once, but probably multiple times, when a team with a similar record and resume made it in over them, before they would really consider joining the ACC. However, let's say that happens one day in the future. I would prefer that the ACC stick with 15 members and hopefully, by that time, the requirement that conferences be split into divisions will be taken away and more creative scheduling can exist that would accommodate a 15 member conference. I would then continue to support an eight-game conference schedule so that schools like Clemson, FSU, Louisville, and Georgia Tech can continue to have two P5 OOC games a year and maintain seven home games if they wish. As for the NBC contract, I think some sort of deal would be worked out between Disney/ABC/ESPN and NBC and maybe the end result would be that NBC gets something like four or five Irish home games, and ABC/ESPN gets two or three. In exchange, NBC would show a handful of other ACC games in the slots that would have traditionally been ND home games. Maybe as a kicker, they get a few extra ACC games, so that instead of a total of 7 games a year, they have 9 or 10 and about half of them would be ND home games. I'm just thinking out loud.

Uhh .. no.

Notre Dame isn't going to suddenly want conference membership after one lopsided loss in the playoffs ... to a team IN the conference it would be joining.

And UConn man?? Seriously?? There are 5 better options in the AAC to choose from than UConn.


A much better opportunity for the ACC than the scenario you lay out, is let Notre Dame keep their status as is ... and use the 16th spot for an exact same membership status with Texas ... letting them schedule 5 ACC football games a year as a football independent, with the rest of their sports in the ACC as members.

This adds a huge state to the conference. With much better athletics. And academics (for those that give two chits about that).

Depending on how TV contracts shake out in the next couple years, this Texas bolting from the Big XII is far more appealing than forcing ND into a full member with UConn coming along.

So you wait out the TV contract stuff, see if the Big XII is going to hold, and then see what may happen.

Guys ND doesn’t give two ***** about joining the ACC or any other conference when they are getting paid the way they are by not having to share a dime with anyone else in regards to FB. The only way they will accept joining ANY conference is when the powers to be state CONFERENCE champions only will autmatically get into the playoffs. This was the only way I could see them being forced to join a conference, but now with the possible movement from 4schools to 8schools it will never happen. Now if by some chanc ND wanted to join the ACC I assure you the 16th pick will most likely be a team of their choosen and not UConn as much as their fans would love to see that happen.

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

You lost me at UConn.

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

They will join only if they have to. Champ only playoff would do it. In this unlikely scenario, ACC may be able to lure a high profile school as #16 (Texas?). Even if Texas or any other high profile school doesnt want to join along wth ND, Navy is more realistic than Cincy as that will help ND's scheduling.

Texas would be choice #1 but that isn’t that realistic. Cincinnati, wvu or temple probably all ahead of UConn. I doubt navy would want a full acc schedule so cross them off. Also, could look at TCU or BYU football only. Than the option of nobody if ND joined if some rules are changed so you can have 3 pods. Personally, I think ND should join full time and either wvu or Cincinnati be team 16.

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

Ha Ha - good one on UConn

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

(12-31-2018 01:26 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

Was the Coastal division designed partially (a very small part) to potentially entice ND to the table? I will concede that as a minute possibility. Which is why I was convinced when Pitt and SU joined the league Pitt would get the Coastal while SU would get the Atlantic despite it making much better sense in terms of geography to go the other way around.

But, Miami has still not recovered and VT which was the saving grace of the league in the mid-to-late 00s through early 10s (with all of FSU, Miami, and Clemson being down) has had their own problems since 2011. ND prides itself not only on its independence but on the strength of its schedules year in and year out. They don't want to get into the CFP "the easy way". Me, as an Orange fan, will take anyway we can get for us to be there.

So despite the enticing geographical and academic pluses the Coastal has, ND isn't going to give up its cherished independence in order to play more so-so Coastal teams and then get their butts handed to them by Clemson or Florida State in the ACCCG, immediately removing themselves from the CFP as a result of that 13th game. They just aren't. They'd rather roll the dice on their season ending PAC match-up in California.

Now add in the fact that no Coastal team has come close to sniffing either the BCS Championship Game or CFP 4-team playoff since VT in 2007 is proof enough for me.

Cheers,
Neil

(12-31-2018 02:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 01:26 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

Was the Coastal division designed partially (a very small part) to potentially entice ND to the table? I will concede that as a minute possibility. Which is why I was convinced when Pitt and SU joined the league Pitt would get the Coastal while SU would get the Atlantic despite it making much better sense in terms of geography to go the other way around.

But, Miami has still not recovered and VT which was the saving grace of the league in the mid-to-late 00s through early 10s (with all of FSU, Miami, and Clemson being down) has had their own problems since 2011. ND prides itself not only on its independence but on the strength of its schedules year in and year out. They don't want to get into the CFP "the easy way". Me, as an Orange fan, will take anyway we can get for us to be there.

So despite the enticing geographical and academic pluses the Coastal has, ND isn't going to give up its cherished independence in order to play more so-so Coastal teams and then get their butts handed to them by Clemson or Florida State in the ACCCG, immediately removing themselves from the CFP as a result of that 13th game. They just aren't. They'd rather roll the dice on their season ending PAC match-up in California.

Now add in the fact that no Coastal team has come close to sniffing either the BCS Championship Game or CFP 4-team playoff since VT in 2007 is proof enough for me.

Cheers,
Neil

The Coastal was designed to make UNC/Duke/UVa happy. They got the weaker of the Florida programs and they got to monopolize recruiting appearances in Pa, Georgia and Virginia and they avoided having to play in the Carrier Dome or in Alumni in Boston. It's one of the things that pissed off Maryland, but not near as much as other things.

Some of it was predicated on how each school filled its football stadium at the time (2002/03). Some of it was predicated on hoping to breath life into the UNC-Ch program. Some of it was predicated on keeping old rivalries intact.

The ideal division for ND does indeed include Miami, GT, and Pitt, but it also includes BC. Past that they probably would prefer WF, UVa, and UNC and in that order.

Ideal ND 8 ACC school division - ND, Miami, Pitt, BC, GT, WF, UVa, UNC and that leaves another division with FSU, Clemson, VT, NCSU, Duke, Louisville, Syracuse and one other. That's grossly unbalanced.

ND wants to appear in as many far flung metros as possible. The above gives them Boston, Atlanta, Miami, and Pittsburgh and sometimes Charlotte.

An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

(12-31-2018 02:30 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 02:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 01:26 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

Was the Coastal division designed partially (a very small part) to potentially entice ND to the table? I will concede that as a minute possibility. Which is why I was convinced when Pitt and SU joined the league Pitt would get the Coastal while SU would get the Atlantic despite it making much better sense in terms of geography to go the other way around.

But, Miami has still not recovered and VT which was the saving grace of the league in the mid-to-late 00s through early 10s (with all of FSU, Miami, and Clemson being down) has had their own problems since 2011. ND prides itself not only on its independence but on the strength of its schedules year in and year out. They don't want to get into the CFP "the easy way". Me, as an Orange fan, will take anyway we can get for us to be there.

So despite the enticing geographical and academic pluses the Coastal has, ND isn't going to give up its cherished independence in order to play more so-so Coastal teams and then get their butts handed to them by Clemson or Florida State in the ACCCG, immediately removing themselves from the CFP as a result of that 13th game. They just aren't. They'd rather roll the dice on their season ending PAC match-up in California.

Now add in the fact that no Coastal team has come close to sniffing either the BCS Championship Game or CFP 4-team playoff since VT in 2007 is proof enough for me.

Cheers,
Neil

The Coastal was designed to make UNC/Duke/UVa happy. They got the weaker of the Florida programs and they got to monopolize recruiting appearances in Pa, Georgia and Virginia and they avoided having to play in the Carrier Dome or in Alumni in Boston. It's one of the things that pissed off Maryland, but not near as much as other things.

Some of it was predicated on how each school filled its football stadium at the time (2002/03). Some of it was predicated on hoping to breath life into the UNC-Ch program. Some of it was predicated on keeping old rivalries intact.

The ideal division for ND does indeed include Miami, GT, and Pitt, but it also includes BC. Past that they probably would prefer WF, UVa, and UNC and in that order.

Ideal ND 8 ACC school division - ND, Miami, Pitt, BC, GT, WF, UVa, UNC and that leaves another division with FSU, Clemson, VT, NCSU, Duke, Louisville, Syracuse and one other. That's grossly unbalanced.

ND wants to appear in as many far flung metros as possible. The above gives them Boston, Atlanta, Miami, and Pittsburgh and sometimes Charlotte.

An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

I will defer to your knowledge of the southern teams "ideal" 8. But think you are way off on at least one of your ND "ideal".

Does ND admire Wake as a like-minded institution? Sure. But they will never want to play them on annual basis. For that matter, there aren't any ACC programs they would want to play annually. Pitt being the closest. There simply is NO "ideal" ACC division for the Irish as the league is currently constituted. Only the "illusion" of one in the mind of southerners who tend to be the ACC is "all that" and who still to this day think the ACC had a shot of getting ND full when the ACC was only a southern conference.

But if one were to try and establish an ideal vision with the current ACC members, Wake would not be in the grouping. SU would have a better shot at it than Wake and that would come with some restrictions like "x" number of those ND-SU games would be played in or around NYC, something the current SU athletic administrators would likely decline, at least if it meant SU giving up a home game. That might be subject to change IF attendance ever gets back to late 1980s through 1998 numbers.

Again, ND prides itself on not just it's national schedule, but the toughness of that schedule (even the geographical location of where the games are played, which you mention in your post). The 5 game ACC deal has unfortunately diluted that SOS somewhat over these past 5 years especially since they have only played Clemson once so far and they got a down FSU this year. In their 3 good years they are 14-2 against ACC teams. Even in their two sub-par years they went 4-5 against ACC teams.

If anyone believes Irish fans (including influential donors as well) aren't complaining about this with their athletics department, I suggest they think again.

But this is ND, so posters on these boards will continue to daydream about them joining the conference full a lot. I, admittedly, did my share of that in the past. And this talk will likely continue especially now that football season is just about over with. But IF the Irish ever do join fully, it won't be because they think playing in the ACCCG gives them a better shot of getting into the current CFP playoff system than remaining independent (which is the argument being put forth by some, not necessarily you). It will be because the CFP has gone to a champions only model, which I think we can both agree is highly unlikely.

Cheers,
Neil

(12-31-2018 02:30 PM)Statefan Wrote:  ...An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

I disagree on both Clemson and VT. First, Clemson would much rather have VT than UNC... and VT would rather Clemson, too. While VT doesn't mind playing Wake and Duke, I don't think those are "ideal" opponents.

(12-31-2018 04:36 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 02:30 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 02:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 01:26 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

Was the Coastal division designed partially (a very small part) to potentially entice ND to the table? I will concede that as a minute possibility. Which is why I was convinced when Pitt and SU joined the league Pitt would get the Coastal while SU would get the Atlantic despite it making much better sense in terms of geography to go the other way around.

But, Miami has still not recovered and VT which was the saving grace of the league in the mid-to-late 00s through early 10s (with all of FSU, Miami, and Clemson being down) has had their own problems since 2011. ND prides itself not only on its independence but on the strength of its schedules year in and year out. They don't want to get into the CFP "the easy way". Me, as an Orange fan, will take anyway we can get for us to be there.

So despite the enticing geographical and academic pluses the Coastal has, ND isn't going to give up its cherished independence in order to play more so-so Coastal teams and then get their butts handed to them by Clemson or Florida State in the ACCCG, immediately removing themselves from the CFP as a result of that 13th game. They just aren't. They'd rather roll the dice on their season ending PAC match-up in California.

Now add in the fact that no Coastal team has come close to sniffing either the BCS Championship Game or CFP 4-team playoff since VT in 2007 is proof enough for me.

Cheers,
Neil

The Coastal was designed to make UNC/Duke/UVa happy. They got the weaker of the Florida programs and they got to monopolize recruiting appearances in Pa, Georgia and Virginia and they avoided having to play in the Carrier Dome or in Alumni in Boston. It's one of the things that pissed off Maryland, but not near as much as other things.

Some of it was predicated on how each school filled its football stadium at the time (2002/03). Some of it was predicated on hoping to breath life into the UNC-Ch program. Some of it was predicated on keeping old rivalries intact.

The ideal division for ND does indeed include Miami, GT, and Pitt, but it also includes BC. Past that they probably would prefer WF, UVa, and UNC and in that order.

Ideal ND 8 ACC school division - ND, Miami, Pitt, BC, GT, WF, UVa, UNC and that leaves another division with FSU, Clemson, VT, NCSU, Duke, Louisville, Syracuse and one other. That's grossly unbalanced.

ND wants to appear in as many far flung metros as possible. The above gives them Boston, Atlanta, Miami, and Pittsburgh and sometimes Charlotte.

An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

I will defer to your knowledge of the southern teams "ideal" 8. But think you are way off on at least one of your ND "ideal".

Does ND admire Wake as a like-minded institution? Sure. But they will never want to play them on annual basis. For that matter, there aren't any ACC programs they would want to play annually. Pitt being the closest. There simply is NO "ideal" ACC division for the Irish as the league is currently constituted. Only the "illusion" of one in the mind of southerners who tend to be the ACC is "all that" and who still to this day think the ACC had a shot of getting ND full when the ACC was only a southern conference.

But if one were to try and establish an ideal vision with the current ACC members, Wake would not be in the grouping. SU would have a better shot at it than Wake and that would come with some restrictions like "x" number of those ND-SU games would be played in or around NYC, something the current SU athletic administrators would likely decline, at least if it meant SU giving up a home game. That might be subject to change IF attendance ever gets back to late 1980s through 1998 numbers.

Again, ND prides itself on not just it's national schedule, but the toughness of that schedule (even the geographical location of where the games are played, which you mention in your post). The 5 game ACC deal has unfortunately diluted that SOS somewhat over these past 5 years especially since they have only played Clemson once so far and they got a down FSU this year. In their 3 good years they are 14-2 against ACC teams. Even in their two sub-par years they went 4-5 against ACC teams.

If anyone believes Irish fans (including influential donors as well) aren't complaining about this with their athletics department, I suggest they think again.

But this is ND, so posters on these boards will continue to daydream about them joining the conference full a lot. I, admittedly, did my share of that in the past. And this talk will likely continue especially now that football season is just about over with. But IF the Irish ever do join fully, it won't be because they think playing in the ACCCG gives them a better shot of getting into the current CFP playoff system than remaining independent (which is the argument being put forth by some, not necessarily you). It will be because the CFP has gone to a champions only model, which I think we can both agree is highly unlikely.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil, my comments were predicated on ND playing in an ACC division, not about their current arrangement. I suspect the boosters liked being 12-0 and not having their ass kicked mid-season by Clemson. I would imagine that Syracuse would be their annual crossover rival. That makes 8 conference games.

If someone sets forth a proposition telling you that you have to pick 7 of 15, it's not an option to say you will only pick 5.

(12-31-2018 04:43 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 02:30 PM)Statefan Wrote:  ...An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

I disagree on both Clemson and VT. First, Clemson would much rather have VT than UNC... and VT would rather Clemson, too. While VT doesn't mind playing Wake and Duke, I don't think those are "ideal" opponents.

Hokie, VT does not want Clemson as long as Dabo is there. Volunteering to get your ass kicked is dumb. The Hokie objectives are to win their division and to maintain their recruiting ties to NC and Florida. At least that's what I was told back in the early 2010's when I was there.

Now Clemson on the other might want VT over NC State, but not over UNC. UNC has more alumni in SW NC, than NC State, therefore they have more willing to travel to Clemson on a regular basis. UNC has a particularly robust base in Asheville.

WF is indeed an ideal opponent for VT because they are your geographically closest ACC school and you already have joint academic programs with WF. Your home media markets overlap and you depend on being able to recruit the Piedmont Triad of NC. Duke is another easy trip for your fan base, especially those in Southside Va.

It's always good to have someone that you "should" be able to beat.

(12-31-2018 02:30 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 02:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 01:26 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

Was the Coastal division designed partially (a very small part) to potentially entice ND to the table? I will concede that as a minute possibility. Which is why I was convinced when Pitt and SU joined the league Pitt would get the Coastal while SU would get the Atlantic despite it making much better sense in terms of geography to go the other way around.

But, Miami has still not recovered and VT which was the saving grace of the league in the mid-to-late 00s through early 10s (with all of FSU, Miami, and Clemson being down) has had their own problems since 2011. ND prides itself not only on its independence but on the strength of its schedules year in and year out. They don't want to get into the CFP "the easy way". Me, as an Orange fan, will take anyway we can get for us to be there.

So despite the enticing geographical and academic pluses the Coastal has, ND isn't going to give up its cherished independence in order to play more so-so Coastal teams and then get their butts handed to them by Clemson or Florida State in the ACCCG, immediately removing themselves from the CFP as a result of that 13th game. They just aren't. They'd rather roll the dice on their season ending PAC match-up in California.

Now add in the fact that no Coastal team has come close to sniffing either the BCS Championship Game or CFP 4-team playoff since VT in 2007 is proof enough for me.

Cheers,
Neil

The Coastal was designed to make UNC/Duke/UVa happy. They got the weaker of the Florida programs and they got to monopolize recruiting appearances in Pa, Georgia and Virginia and they avoided having to play in the Carrier Dome or in Alumni in Boston. It's one of the things that pissed off Maryland, but not near as much as other things.

Some of it was predicated on how each school filled its football stadium at the time (2002/03). Some of it was predicated on hoping to breath life into the UNC-Ch program. Some of it was predicated on keeping old rivalries intact.

The ideal division for ND does indeed include Miami, GT, and Pitt, but it also includes BC. Past that they probably would prefer WF, UVa, and UNC and in that order.

Ideal ND 8 ACC school division - ND, Miami, Pitt, BC, GT, WF, UVa, UNC and that leaves another division with FSU, Clemson, VT, NCSU, Duke, Louisville, Syracuse and one other. That's grossly unbalanced.

ND wants to appear in as many far flung metros as possible. The above gives them Boston, Atlanta, Miami, and Pittsburgh and sometimes Charlotte.

An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

Pitt and Syracuse weren’t even in the conference for another ten years when the divisions were formed!

UNC football fans are much more interested in playing FSU and Clemson than Miami and whatever northern team is having a “resurgence”.

(12-31-2018 02:30 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 02:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 01:26 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 12:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 10:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  The blowout by Clemson must make ND feel vulnerable and insecure. Maybe this is the time to ask ND join ACC football. I will propose:

1. ACC expand to 16. ND joins Coastal. UConn joins Atlantic.

2. Only 7 division games decides division championship. Cross division games count as out-of-conference games. Schools can choose 0, 1 or 2 cross-division games on their own. In ND's case, they will choose play the minimal 7 ACC games and leave them five open OOC game slots.

3. ND can still have its private contract with NBC for their home games. But in return, all revenues on their road games belong to ACC network.

What do you think? Will they bite? They keep what they want the most, NBC money and national exposure. Still quite independent.

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Not only does the current arrangement work fine as is, the plan you outline above appears to rely on keeping a divisional set-up which I see as THE major problem the ACC needs to address moving forward.

Cheers,
Neil

Keeping the current division is essential to bait Notre Dame. We only promise Notre Dame that they will not be in the same division with Clemson and Florida State. If Notre Dame thinks they can handle Miami and Virginia Tech then go to conference championship game almost every year and it turns out that they can't, it is Notre Dame's problem.

Was the Coastal division designed partially (a very small part) to potentially entice ND to the table? I will concede that as a minute possibility. Which is why I was convinced when Pitt and SU joined the league Pitt would get the Coastal while SU would get the Atlantic despite it making much better sense in terms of geography to go the other way around.

But, Miami has still not recovered and VT which was the saving grace of the league in the mid-to-late 00s through early 10s (with all of FSU, Miami, and Clemson being down) has had their own problems since 2011. ND prides itself not only on its independence but on the strength of its schedules year in and year out. They don't want to get into the CFP "the easy way". Me, as an Orange fan, will take anyway we can get for us to be there.

So despite the enticing geographical and academic pluses the Coastal has, ND isn't going to give up its cherished independence in order to play more so-so Coastal teams and then get their butts handed to them by Clemson or Florida State in the ACCCG, immediately removing themselves from the CFP as a result of that 13th game. They just aren't. They'd rather roll the dice on their season ending PAC match-up in California.

Now add in the fact that no Coastal team has come close to sniffing either the BCS Championship Game or CFP 4-team playoff since VT in 2007 is proof enough for me.

Cheers,
Neil

The Coastal was designed to make UNC/Duke/UVa happy. They got the weaker of the Florida programs and they got to monopolize recruiting appearances in Pa, Georgia and Virginia and they avoided having to play in the Carrier Dome or in Alumni in Boston. It's one of the things that pissed off Maryland, but not near as much as other things.

Some of it was predicated on how each school filled its football stadium at the time (2002/03). Some of it was predicated on hoping to breath life into the UNC-Ch program. Some of it was predicated on keeping old rivalries intact.

The ideal division for ND does indeed include Miami, GT, and Pitt, but it also includes BC. Past that they probably would prefer WF, UVa, and UNC and in that order.

Ideal ND 8 ACC school division - ND, Miami, Pitt, BC, GT, WF, UVa, UNC and that leaves another division with FSU, Clemson, VT, NCSU, Duke, Louisville, Syracuse and one other. That's grossly unbalanced.

ND wants to appear in as many far flung metros as possible. The above gives them Boston, Atlanta, Miami, and Pittsburgh and sometimes Charlotte.

An ideal Clemson 8 (if you listen to Kaplony) would included FSU, Miami, GT, ND, Pitt, Lousiville, UNC, and NCSU

Clemson wants to maximize the demand for home football tickets so they want folks to travel to them so that means no small privates.

An ideal VT 8 would be UVa, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke, Pitt, GT, Miami, and ND

VT's big thing was appearances in the State of NC plus Miami and ND.

When you multiply these variables by all the schools, it's tough to satisfy. But in any formula, you have to start with Carolina and them playing Duke, NC State, and UVa on an annual basis. Then go from there.

NCSU was always a late September/early October game that nobody in Chapel Hill paid much attention to. If the "conference" didn't insist on making the Carolina-State game a rivalry, it wouldn't be.

Dump UL and add UCONN. Call it a day.