Hallcity
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RE: Conference realignment doesn’t seem likely, but Longhorn Network, ACC Network and Pac
(12-27-2018 07:58 PM)OrangeDude Wrote: Thanks Statefan. The ACC's interest in ND and PSU is well known and goes a long ways back. ND itself has rarely ever shown any interest in being in a conference specifically because it has PSU as a member so that part of the info seems suspect to me. ACC wanting ND and ACC wanting PSU is only logical as I have stated in several posts over the years on this board and others, but if the ACC truly thought having PSU was somehow a key to getting ND to join full-time demonstrates to me that even by the early 2010's their understanding of the Irish is questionable at best. Not as bad as believing ND would join a fully southern conference ACC back in 2003, but still not good.
Now it is true that ND and PSU did play each other a lot in the 80s and early 90s (12 of the 19 times they played happened then) when both were independents so I could see Corrigan perhaps believing there might be some connection there at that time but having talked with others who are familiar with both ND and PSU, I am under the impression there has never been much between them - including discussions around what teams they would want in a conference if they did form a northeastern conference. The fact that JoePa never mentions wanting an independent ND as part of his efforts to form a northeastern conference but did mention Maryland a founding and current member of the ACC back then as a possibility speaks volumes to me as it should have to ACC officials as well.
Now I have been told from people familiar with both sides that when ND considered the Big Ten sometime in late 2003 or early 2004 after they had ended negotiations with the ACC and were once again considering the Big Ten on the quiet (these talks I am told were actually initiated by the Irish, not the Big Ten) the Irish voiced the same concerns about joining the Big Ten they had back in 1999 and asked for permission to speak with PSU about their assimilation into the conference. Whatever JoePa said wasn't good, or at least surprised ND, because the "quiet" talks ended quickly after that.
By 2010 though JoePa seemed to have mellowed and was looking for any expansion beyond the Midwest so Delany's original plan of expanding with one to three of Texas, TAMU, ND, and Nebraska sounded good to him. Some say he simply wanted a "voting block" outside of the 10 to help persuade things to go in a different direction if need be. Also, if I am recalling correctly it was in 2011 there was the infamous leaked story with anonymous Big Ten officials questioning PSU's overall value to the league, no doubt in response to JoePa pushing for more eastern expansion. So when the ACC expanded with SU and Pitt joining them with Maryland and BC I could see Penn State at least getting "roving eyes" as Alvarez said. Which in turn got my hopes up that even with the BTN there was a slight chance PSU might join the ACC.
I assume that the NW and Purdue stuff was separate and distinct from the PSU side of the equation and more perhaps some misguided idea of what ND might want to join fully. But this would definitely seem to indicate that even the ACC had gotten to the point of considering expansion to at least 18 which is both surprising and shows some foresight on the part of the conference. Or am I misinterpreting this and 16 was going to be the max with two of ND, PSU, Purdue, and NW?
As for the conference not finding out until late in the game that Maryland was playing a "double game" with intent on leaving the conference, well that is on the conference in my eyes. Institutions in the league knew Maryland (and Rutgers) were potential high profile expansion candidates for expansion beyond 12 when it became obvious by late Spring of 2010 only Nebraska was willing to bite of the four desired candidates. Wasn't there even some exploratory reach out to other high profile ACC institutions by the Big Ten at that time as well? If yes, then they had to know some of the tactics the Big Ten was using to "persuade" any potential members to leave the conference. These tactics no doubt included playing up academics, the CIC, the BTN with "more $$$ than God" as one Big Ten official proclaimed.
Conference officials also had to know about Maryland's $$$ issues and that the Big Ten would appear to be an "easy fix" to them. But just as many Big East officials and conference mates were "shocked" to see Syracuse accept the ACC bid in 2011, I suppose the same was true of ACC officials in regards to Maryland. Ultimately though they only have themselves to blame if they extended a whole lot of trust and faith in Maryland by that time since the writing was on the wall for many who were not as near to the situation as they were.
Thanks again for the info. Learned some new interesting stuff.
Cheers,
Neil
(12-27-2018 07:58 PM)OrangeDude Wrote: Thanks Statefan. The ACC's interest in ND and PSU is well known and goes a long ways back. ND itself has rarely ever shown any interest in being in a conference specifically because it has PSU as a member so that part of the info seems suspect to me. ACC wanting ND and ACC wanting PSU is only logical as I have stated in several posts over the years on this board and others, but if the ACC truly thought having PSU was somehow a key to getting ND to join full-time demonstrates to me that even by the early 2010's their understanding of the Irish is questionable at best. Not as bad as believing ND would join a fully southern conference ACC back in 2003, but still not good.
Now it is true that ND and PSU did play each other a lot in the 80s and early 90s (12 of the 19 times they played happened then) when both were independents so I could see Corrigan perhaps believing there might be some connection there at that time but having talked with others who are familiar with both ND and PSU, I am under the impression there has never been much between them - including discussions around what teams they would want in a conference if they did form a northeastern conference. The fact that JoePa never mentions wanting an independent ND as part of his efforts to form a northeastern conference but did mention Maryland a founding and current member of the ACC back then as a possibility speaks volumes to me as it should have to ACC officials as well.
Now I have been told from people familiar with both sides that when ND considered the Big Ten sometime in late 2003 or early 2004 after they had ended negotiations with the ACC and were once again considering the Big Ten on the quiet (these talks I am told were actually initiated by the Irish, not the Big Ten) the Irish voiced the same concerns about joining the Big Ten they had back in 1999 and asked for permission to speak with PSU about their assimilation into the conference. Whatever JoePa said wasn't good, or at least surprised ND, because the "quiet" talks ended quickly after that.
By 2010 though JoePa seemed to have mellowed and was looking for any expansion beyond the Midwest so Delany's original plan of expanding with one to three of Texas, TAMU, ND, and Nebraska sounded good to him. Some say he simply wanted a "voting block" outside of the 10 to help persuade things to go in a different direction if need be. Also, if I am recalling correctly it was in 2011 there was the infamous leaked story with anonymous Big Ten officials questioning PSU's overall value to the league, no doubt in response to JoePa pushing for more eastern expansion. So when the ACC expanded with SU and Pitt joining them with Maryland and BC I could see Penn State at least getting "roving eyes" as Alvarez said. Which in turn got my hopes up that even with the BTN there was a slight chance PSU might join the ACC.
I assume that the NW and Purdue stuff was separate and distinct from the PSU side of the equation and more perhaps some misguided idea of what ND might want to join fully. But this would definitely seem to indicate that even the ACC had gotten to the point of considering expansion to at least 18 which is both surprising and shows some foresight on the part of the conference. Or am I misinterpreting this and 16 was going to be the max with two of ND, PSU, Purdue, and NW?
As for the conference not finding out until late in the game that Maryland was playing a "double game" with intent on leaving the conference, well that is on the conference in my eyes. Institutions in the league knew Maryland (and Rutgers) were potential high profile expansion candidates for expansion beyond 12 when it became obvious by late Spring of 2010 only Nebraska was willing to bite of the four desired candidates. Wasn't there even some exploratory reach out to other high profile ACC institutions by the Big Ten at that time as well? If yes, then they had to know some of the tactics the Big Ten was using to "persuade" any potential members to leave the conference. These tactics no doubt included playing up academics, the CIC, the BTN with "more $$$ than God" as one Big Ten official proclaimed.
Conference officials also had to know about Maryland's $$$ issues and that the Big Ten would appear to be an "easy fix" to them. But just as many Big East officials and conference mates were "shocked" to see Syracuse accept the ACC bid in 2011, I suppose the same was true of ACC officials in regards to Maryland. Ultimately though they only have themselves to blame if they extended a whole lot of trust and faith in Maryland by that time since the writing was on the wall for many who were not as near to the situation as they were.
Thanks again for the info. Learned some new interesting stuff.
Cheers,
Neil
In the end, I’m delighted that the B10 took Maryland and its dysfunctional athletic department and athletic culture off our hands.
BTW, I don’t have to think too hard to figure out what started the Terps on the road to leaving the ACC. It was a series of devastating losses in basketball to Duke in 2001. In the game at Cole Field House, Duke came back from a 10 point deficit in the last minute and won in OT. This included Jason (now known as Jay) Williams, hitting a 3, stealing the inbounds pass and immediately hitting another 3 on which he was fouled. He made the FT. That’s 7 points in something like 3 seconds. Then there was an incredible Duke comeback to overcome a 22 point deficit to Maryland in the national semifinal game in 2001. These and other Maryland losses (and occasional wins) led to rioting at Maryland and I do mean rioting with significant injuries and property damage. Maryland was widely criticized at the time but reacted in a ridiculously self righteous way. As an example of how badly out of whack things had gotten, immediately after the Terps had a rare win at Cameron their whole team rushed to center court and proceeded to stomp on the Duke logo. I’ve never seen or heard of such a thing from any other team.
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