(12-21-2018 11:32 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:25 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Obama was right about what?

Obama the 2008 candidate made some good points on certain foreign policy issues. Obama the president was a largely neoconservative commander in chief. We don't want to be involved with nation building. GWB campaigned on that specifically and won. Obama campaigned on it and won. Trump campaigned on it and won (and is now implementing the policy). There was a period after 9/11 where many conservatives (including myself) switched positions with President Bush. Can't speak for everyone else, but personally it was an angry and emotional time... but in retrospect mistakes were made. But I'm not sure I understand your argument that Obama was right. He wanted war with Syria.

I'm not trying to promote/defend Obama. I was responding to the idea that conservatives learn lessons doesn't explain the evolution on military strategy.

Obama was excoriated on the right for even mentioning troop draw-downs at inopportune times. Those same people are now defending Trump's spontaneous decisions that seem to run counter to military CW.

Your statements are simply false.

Many Republicans want to limit foreign military involvement to "necessary" tasks. Many want more intervention and you hear that from a number of Republican Senators. You are seeing Republicans as some monolithic group and seeing hypocrisy where none exists.

(12-21-2018 11:07 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:44 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  ? Anyone is welcome. I disagree though. A good case are the parents (White, E. Asian, Jews) in Manhattan fighting the school district that wants to put poor performing students (Blacks, C. American Hispanics) into the good schools and ship good performing students over to the bad schools. Those parents are largely Hillary voters.

From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Republicans learn their lesson, Democrats don't. (Strictly speaking to security and defense)

This. Those on the right tend to know history and what has been more successful in the past. The left is the ‘grass is greener on the other side of the fence” crowd but they ignore the failures of the past or think they can do it better because they are smarter.
The second distinction is that the left believes governments bestow rights. The right and the founders believe God bestows rights. What the government bestows (ie healthcare) the government can take away. Rights bestowed on man by God cannot be taken away by a legitimate government.
Common sense rule as opposed to rule by emotion.

(12-21-2018 11:10 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:57 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:44 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  ? Anyone is welcome. I disagree though. A good case are the parents (White, E. Asian, Jews) in Manhattan fighting the school district that wants to put poor performing students (Blacks, C. American Hispanics) into the good schools and ship good performing students over to the bad schools. Those parents are largely Hillary voters.

From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Did quick glance, the article is leftist trash.

I thought it was pretty fair. I can see how you wouldn't like the part about conservatives being more prone to misinformation, but I would think even conservatives would agree that there are more far-right 'personalities' than far left.

In looking at the article, what I see is it's written by Ezra Klein, and per his wiki bio in the first sentence :" left wing political commentator " - that tells me the slant he's going to present from right off the bat. As I suspected - that's exactly what he does, in my opinion. Nothing like painting with a broad brush.......and his view of painting conservatives in a poor light doesn't surprise me in the least.


Conservatives I think generally believe that the smaller government is, the better - they continually show us that they suck at whatever they try and run.....I think also conservatives believe that not trusting government is a good thing. Thinking they always have the people's best interests is not really how government works - they always take care of themselves first.....

Now, I suppose a lefty can somehow twist what I just said to try a paint me as a racist, bigoted, homophobe whose scared of my shadow because that's almost become the default, but whatever....

(12-21-2018 11:16 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:07 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:44 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  ? Anyone is welcome. I disagree though. A good case are the parents (White, E. Asian, Jews) in Manhattan fighting the school district that wants to put poor performing students (Blacks, C. American Hispanics) into the good schools and ship good performing students over to the bad schools. Those parents are largely Hillary voters.

From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Republicans learn their lesson, Democrats don't. (Strictly speaking to security and defense)

Then how can we explain the shifts we've seen in Republican foreign policy? I see Republicans on here rushing to explain Trump's recent strategies (I'm not really trying to debate those points, just pointing out that it's an obvious shift from Republican criticism under Obama).

Is the lesson learned that Obama was right?

Hussein’s announcement of removal of troops from Iraq was a gift to the Islamist because it gave them a time table. This is what the right complained about and what Trump complained about. This was not signaled in any way. Exactly what Trump said Hussein should have done. Basically don’t telegraph your moves to the enemy.
Telling France in advance would have been the equal to letting the whole world know.

(12-21-2018 11:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Are they the same people? Those same people seem to be excoriating Trump right now.

They look like it to me. There was a large percentage of the country that blasted Obama for reducing troops, I really don't remember any conservatives, commentators or people I know, that were saying "That's the first great thing he's done."

Excoriating Trump, though? Lindsay Graham promising to tweet at Trump is not as threatening as it sounds. Saying that the decision is "unfortunate" is not excoriation, IMO.

(12-21-2018 10:38 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  While there is a high level theoretical basis to that it really comes down to a few basic differences of how things should work:



Republicans generally think that an adult can and should take care of themselves (Government should give everybody the tools to do so) - survival of the fittest

Democrats think that everyone (Government) should take care of everyone - we should all be equals regardless of what we contribute

The answer is here.

Democrats think about both sides what the original poster posted.

Republicans think about both sides what Eldonabe just posted.

EDIT TO ADD: This is about listening. Listen. What each side thinks is expressed pretty well here, but will the other side actually listen?

(12-21-2018 11:48 AM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:07 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Republicans learn their lesson, Democrats don't. (Strictly speaking to security and defense)

This. Those on the right tend to know history and what has been more successful in the past. The left is the ‘grass is greener on the other side of the fence” crowd but they ignore the failures of the past or think they can do it better because they are smarter.
The second distinction is that the left believes governments bestow rights. The right and the founders believe God bestows rights. What the government bestows (ie healthcare) the government can take away. Rights bestowed on man by God cannot be taken away by a legitimate government.
Common sense rule as opposed to rule by emotion.

Does this seem like an unbiased take to you? This seems more like an excuse to dump on the half of the country that doesn't agree with you.

Also, the whole conservatives believe in religion, the liberals don't isn't really true and doesn't really explain anything about vitriol if it was.

The Republicans believe in Jesus so that's why they hate people with a liberal worldview so much? Jesus sounds great...

(12-21-2018 11:28 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:22 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:16 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:07 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Republicans learn their lesson, Democrats don't. (Strictly speaking to security and defense)

Then how can we explain the shifts we've seen in Republican foreign policy? I see Republicans on here rushing to explain Trump's recent strategies (I'm not really trying to debate those points, just pointing out that it's an obvious shift from Republican criticism under Obama).

Is the lesson learned that Obama was right?

Trump -/= republican on defense. Honestly I don't understand exactly what he is doing in Syria.

Generally Republicans favor presence in the ME, Dem don't. Strong hand with NK and China, Dem's don't. Repubicans strong defense, dem's don't.

But that's a lot of my confusion. Typically, that is how I see things usually going.

But right now, you see a lot of 'typical conservatives' passionately defending Trump on a position that out-flanks the Democrats on the left.

Republicans strong defense doesn't explain the cleaving to Trump, it would normally predict that people would be blasting him right now.

Many conservatives are.

(12-21-2018 11:50 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:10 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:57 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:44 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  ? Anyone is welcome. I disagree though. A good case are the parents (White, E. Asian, Jews) in Manhattan fighting the school district that wants to put poor performing students (Blacks, C. American Hispanics) into the good schools and ship good performing students over to the bad schools. Those parents are largely Hillary voters.

From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Did quick glance, the article is leftist trash.

I thought it was pretty fair. I can see how you wouldn't like the part about conservatives being more prone to misinformation, but I would think even conservatives would agree that there are more far-right 'personalities' than far left.

In looking at the article, what I see is it's written by Ezra Klein, and per his wiki bio in the first sentence :" left wing political commentator " - that tells me the slant he's going to present from right off the bat. As I suspected - that's exactly what he does, in my opinion. Nothing like painting with a broad brush.......and his view of painting conservatives in a poor light doesn't surprise me in the least.


Conservatives I think generally believe that the smaller government is, the better - they continually show us that they suck at whatever they try and run.....I think also conservatives believe that not trusting government is a good thing. Thinking they always have the people's best interests is not really how government works - they always take care of themselves first.....

Now, I suppose a lefty can somehow twist what I just said to try a paint me as a racist, bigoted, homophobe whose scared of my shadow because that's almost become the default, but whatever....

Klein is a liberal, but this is an interview (and a fair one to me) instead of an opinion article.

The small government thing doesn't make sense to me. Deficits and the size of the government did not exactly shrink during the current term or with George W. Bush.

I don't think anyone got racist, bigoted, homophobe from that post. Did you do an OK sign as you were typing and I just couldn't see it?

(12-21-2018 12:18 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:48 AM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:07 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Republicans learn their lesson, Democrats don't. (Strictly speaking to security and defense)

This. Those on the right tend to know history and what has been more successful in the past. The left is the ‘grass is greener on the other side of the fence” crowd but they ignore the failures of the past or think they can do it better because they are smarter.
The second distinction is that the left believes governments bestow rights. The right and the founders believe God bestows rights. What the government bestows (ie healthcare) the government can take away. Rights bestowed on man by God cannot be taken away by a legitimate government.
Common sense rule as opposed to rule by emotion.

Does this seem like an unbiased take to you? This seems more like an excuse to dump on the half of the country that doesn't agree with you.

Also, the whole conservatives believe in religion, the liberals don't isn't really true and doesn't really explain anything about vitriol if it was.

The Republicans believe in Jesus so that's why they hate people with a liberal worldview so much? Jesus sounds great...

IMO, there are Republicans and Democrats both favor us spending treasure and lives on whatever hot spot is boiling over at any given time. Those are your globalists - somehow they aren't happy running this country, they're sticking their nose in all those other folks business........because they somehow think "they are the smartest and they can do it better"..

People (and countries) do what is in their own best interests. Anyone that thinks differently is making a huge mistake (read: generally the left)

(12-21-2018 12:24 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:50 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:10 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:57 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Did quick glance, the article is leftist trash.

I thought it was pretty fair. I can see how you wouldn't like the part about conservatives being more prone to misinformation, but I would think even conservatives would agree that there are more far-right 'personalities' than far left.

In looking at the article, what I see is it's written by Ezra Klein, and per his wiki bio in the first sentence :" left wing political commentator " - that tells me the slant he's going to present from right off the bat. As I suspected - that's exactly what he does, in my opinion. Nothing like painting with a broad brush.......and his view of painting conservatives in a poor light doesn't surprise me in the least.


Conservatives I think generally believe that the smaller government is, the better - they continually show us that they suck at whatever they try and run.....I think also conservatives believe that not trusting government is a good thing. Thinking they always have the people's best interests is not really how government works - they always take care of themselves first.....

Now, I suppose a lefty can somehow twist what I just said to try a paint me as a racist, bigoted, homophobe whose scared of my shadow because that's almost become the default, but whatever....

Klein is a liberal, but this is an interview (and a fair one to me) instead of an opinion article.

The small government thing doesn't make sense to me. Deficits and the size of the government did not exactly shrink during the current term or with George W. Bush.

I don't think anyone got racist, bigoted, homophobe from that post. Did you do an OK sign as you were typing and I just couldn't see it?

Because the content is consistent with your views.

Democrats hate America

(12-21-2018 12:27 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 12:24 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:50 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:10 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:57 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Did quick glance, the article is leftist trash.

I thought it was pretty fair. I can see how you wouldn't like the part about conservatives being more prone to misinformation, but I would think even conservatives would agree that there are more far-right 'personalities' than far left.

In looking at the article, what I see is it's written by Ezra Klein, and per his wiki bio in the first sentence :" left wing political commentator " - that tells me the slant he's going to present from right off the bat. As I suspected - that's exactly what he does, in my opinion. Nothing like painting with a broad brush.......and his view of painting conservatives in a poor light doesn't surprise me in the least.


Conservatives I think generally believe that the smaller government is, the better - they continually show us that they suck at whatever they try and run.....I think also conservatives believe that not trusting government is a good thing. Thinking they always have the people's best interests is not really how government works - they always take care of themselves first.....

Now, I suppose a lefty can somehow twist what I just said to try a paint me as a racist, bigoted, homophobe whose scared of my shadow because that's almost become the default, but whatever....

Klein is a liberal, but this is an interview (and a fair one to me) instead of an opinion article.

The small government thing doesn't make sense to me. Deficits and the size of the government did not exactly shrink during the current term or with George W. Bush.

I don't think anyone got racist, bigoted, homophobe from that post. Did you do an OK sign as you were typing and I just couldn't see it?

Because the content is consistent with your views.

Not necessarily. I just felt like Klein was trying to figure out whether it was a good theory, not trying to score points with liberals reading it.

As to whether I subscribe to the theory, that's why I came here. I wanted to see if there were conservatives that thought it was a good explanation.

(12-21-2018 12:24 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:50 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:10 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:57 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 10:50 AM)atsKnight Wrote:  From the article: Take 9/11, for example. Americans across the worldview spectrum were petrified. In the short run, the more fluid became more willing to trade civil liberties for security, more willing to support the use of torture. The fixed were already likely to support those things before the attacks. As time passed, however, the fluid went back to valuing civil liberties and opposing torture. Their worldviews hadn’t changed.

That would explain short term shifts.

Did quick glance, the article is leftist trash.

I thought it was pretty fair. I can see how you wouldn't like the part about conservatives being more prone to misinformation, but I would think even conservatives would agree that there are more far-right 'personalities' than far left.

In looking at the article, what I see is it's written by Ezra Klein, and per his wiki bio in the first sentence :" left wing political commentator " - that tells me the slant he's going to present from right off the bat. As I suspected - that's exactly what he does, in my opinion. Nothing like painting with a broad brush.......and his view of painting conservatives in a poor light doesn't surprise me in the least.


Conservatives I think generally believe that the smaller government is, the better - they continually show us that they suck at whatever they try and run.....I think also conservatives believe that not trusting government is a good thing. Thinking they always have the people's best interests is not really how government works - they always take care of themselves first.....

Now, I suppose a lefty can somehow twist what I just said to try a paint me as a racist, bigoted, homophobe whose scared of my shadow because that's almost become the default, but whatever....

Klein is a liberal, but this is an interview (and a fair one to me) instead of an opinion article.

The small government thing doesn't make sense to me. Deficits and the size of the government did not exactly shrink during the current term or with George W. Bush.

I don't think anyone got racist, bigoted, homophobe from that post. Did you do an OK sign as you were typing and I just couldn't see it?

The small government is what Republicans believe. That doesn't mean DC politicians follow it. That's the reason for Ross Perot and why the Republicans lost in 2006.

You are spouting off close-minded talking points against Republicans (not as bad as a lot of Democrats). That was the point of his comment.

(12-21-2018 12:40 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Democrats hate America

I am aware that asking for self-awareness on this board is asking a lot.

And I know that trying to cooperatively examine the motivations for vitriol is a little naive on a board that exists for vitriol and has probably jettisoned cooperative people a long time ago.

But I don't really know where I would go to talk to liberals and I feel like I understand their flavor of hypocrisy anyways. And I thought I got conservatives until Trump.

Now I realize I don't understand conservatives at all and I never could have predicted the rise of Trump, nor the continued undying loyalty. So I'm trying to shift my perspective from small govt/big govt, hawk/dove, and the old ways of looking at things to something that explains the passion on both sides despite idealogical shifts.

(12-21-2018 01:22 PM)bullet Wrote:  The small government is what Republicans believe. That doesn't mean DC politicians follow it. That's the reason for Ross Perot and why the Republicans lost in 2006.

You are spouting off close-minded talking points against Republicans (not as bad as a lot of Democrats). That was the point of his comment.

Help me understand, what are the close-minded talking points?

I felt like the article was broadly talking about whether people view the world as a scary place or not. That sounds more like a worldview spectrum than a right/wrong, good person/bad person.

(12-21-2018 12:18 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:48 AM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 11:07 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Republicans learn their lesson, Democrats don't. (Strictly speaking to security and defense)

This. Those on the right tend to know history and what has been more successful in the past. The left is the ‘grass is greener on the other side of the fence” crowd but they ignore the failures of the past or think they can do it better because they are smarter.
The second distinction is that the left believes governments bestow rights. The right and the founders believe God bestows rights. What the government bestows (ie healthcare) the government can take away. Rights bestowed on man by God cannot be taken away by a legitimate government.
Common sense rule as opposed to rule by emotion.

Does this seem like an unbiased take to you? This seems more like an excuse to dump on the half of the country that doesn't agree with you.

Also, the whole conservatives believe in religion, the liberals don't isn't really true and doesn't really explain anything about vitriol if it was.

The Republicans believe in Jesus so that's why they hate people with a liberal worldview so much? Jesus sounds great...

You didn't understand the comment. There has been a decline in religion. That has resulted in a decline in common norms among everyone. Now that decline is much more prevalent among Democrats.

Republicans have gotten tired of arrogant, smug hypocritical Democratic attacks and have started sending some of the vitrol back. Democrats have been hateful since the McGovern era. They have just gotten worse recently. You don't even seem to understand how arrogant and smug many of your comments are.

(12-21-2018 01:23 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 12:40 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Democrats hate America

I am aware that asking for self-awareness on this board is asking a lot.

And I know that trying to cooperatively examine the motivations for vitriol is a little naive on a board that exists for vitriol and has probably jettisoned cooperative people a long time ago.

But I don't really know where I would go to talk to liberals and I feel like I understand their flavor of hypocrisy anyways. And I thought I got conservatives until Trump.

Now I realize I don't understand conservatives at all and I never could have predicted the rise of Trump, nor the continued undying loyalty. So I'm trying to shift my perspective from small govt/big govt, hawk/dove, and the old ways of looking at things to something that explains the passion on both sides despite idealogical shifts.

I think the "America First" slogan captures the modern republican base, especially this forum, perfectly. Too long has 50% of the country sat by and watched the rest of the world prosper at our expense while the middle class in this country faltered. The progressive left wants everyone to be equal and the fact that conservatives do not want others to benefit from their hard work leads them to be labeled as racist because the majority of those that would benefit are minorities. I see it all the time on my facebook and I'm not talking about jobless college kids. I'm talking firm middle class people that fully support open boarders and medicare for all because they truly believe it is society's responsibility to make sure everyone has a decent quality of life. I respect them because they are willing to put their money where their ideals are even if I disagree with it completely.

To sum it up, basically conservatives think I work my ass off to support myself everyone else should do the same. Liberals think everyone should contribute to supporting everyone.

The vitrol comes from the liberals can't get their way without taking what the conservatives have earned and do not want to share. When it comes down to your ideas basically will end with you robbing me to fund them people are going to get a little pissed off.

(12-21-2018 01:35 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  I think the "America First" slogan captures the modern republican base, especially this forum, perfectly. Too long has 50% of the country sat by and watched the rest of the world prosper at our expense while the middle class in this country faltered. The progressive left wants everyone to be equal and the fact that conservatives do not want others to benefit from their hard work leads them to be labeled as racist because the majority of those that would benefit are minorities. I see it all the time on my facebook and I'm not talking about jobless college kids. I'm talking firm middle class people that fully support open boarders and medicare for all because they truly believe it is society's responsibility to make sure everyone has a decent quality of life. I respect them because they are willing to put their money where their ideals are even if I disagree with it completely.

To sum it up, basically conservatives think I work my ass off to support myself everyone else should do the same. Liberals think everyone should contribute to supporting everyone.

The vitrol comes from the liberals can't get their way without taking what the conservatives have earned and do not want to share. When it comes down to your ideas basically will end with you robbing me to fund them people are going to get a little pissed off.

Part of my question in posting the article is the search for an explanation that both sides can agree on. Is there a theory that both liberals and conservatives would look at and say, "Yeah, that sounds like me."

I really doubt that liberals look at themselves as the people that want to rob people to fund other people. Or even the people that want everyone to be equal. I think that's called Communist.

(12-21-2018 01:23 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  

(12-21-2018 12:40 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Democrats hate America

I am aware that asking for self-awareness on this board is asking a lot.

And I know that trying to cooperatively examine the motivations for vitriol is a little naive on a board that exists for vitriol and has probably jettisoned cooperative people a long time ago.

But I don't really know where I would go to talk to liberals and I feel like I understand their flavor of hypocrisy anyways. And I thought I got conservatives until Trump.

Now I realize I don't understand conservatives at all and I never could have predicted the rise of Trump, nor the continued undying loyalty. So I'm trying to shift my perspective from small govt/big govt, hawk/dove, and the old ways of looking at things to something that explains the passion on both sides despite idealogical shifts.

Mindless talking points:
Shifts in foreign policy that don't exist
Ignoring the difference between strong defense and interventionism
Falsely claiming the same people bashing Obama are approving of Trump in Syria
Conservatives believe more in fake news (when liberals keep believing the proven lies in NYT and CNN)
Conservatives hate liberals and liberals are open to other ideas.
Undying loyalty to Trump
Conservatives brought about the rise of Trump

And you started out alright, but then started with your arrogant, smug, mindless talking points. Now you are getting angry because you are being called on it. If you had stuck to the article you would be ok here.

Trump isn't president because of conservatives. They supported Cruz and Carson. Trump is president because a huge swath of the country was ignored by BOTH parties for 30 years. Its a populist movement against a government that has helped the poor, foreigners and the top 30% of the population and made policies that helped those groups, often at the expense the middle 50%. I didn't get it at first, but I did live in some blue collar factory towns and it started to make sense.

To quote James Carville, "Its the economy, stupid." Most Democrats STILL don't get that. Life expectancy has declined in the US for 3 years running and 4 years running in the 45-54 age group. No age group had ever suffered a decline in life expectancy other than war and the 1919 flue pandemic prior to that, let alone the whole country. People are desperate. And of 22 candidates, Trump was the only one with empathy for them. For the rest, it was business as usual. Democrats lost because they not only ignored those people, they called them names and promised to eliminate their good paying jobs in the extraction industries.