(08-30-2018 07:13 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

I guess that symbolic meeting counts as something tangible. Right, Lad?

Yep - but there are some that view that as a tangible step backwards (see Illini). But it certainly hasn’t moved us forward. Since then relations have become more stressed and subsequent meetings have been canceled. Heck, Trump canceled a meeting because of an angry letter he received from the North Koreans.

And there are reports that NK is back to developing more ICBMs. If this is what a tangible step forward looks like to y’all, I guess you’re severely optimistic people. But right now, it looks like NK is the same old NK - unwilling to actually make changes that deescalate the situation on the peninsula.

I mean, using Tanqs silly and overly simplistic house party analogy, NK is literally building a stage in their backyard for their next house party, but Tanq thinks they won’t throw another party because they haven’t in a while. NK is developing a new ICBM - do you think they won’t go test it?

(08-30-2018 07:31 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 07:13 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

I guess that symbolic meeting counts as something tangible. Right, Lad?

Yep - but there are some that view that as a tangible step backwards (see Illini). But it certainly hasn’t moved us forward. Since then relations have become more stressed and subsequent meetings have been canceled. Heck, Trump canceled a meeting because of an angry letter he received from the North Koreans.

And there are reports that NK is back to developing more ICBMs. If this is what a tangible step forward looks like to y’all, I guess you’re severely optimistic people. But right now, it looks like NK is the same old NK - unwilling to actually make changes that deescalate the situation on the peninsula.

I mean, using Tanqs silly and overly simplistic house party analogy, NK is literally building a stage in their backyard for their next house party, but Tanq thinks they won’t throw another party because they haven’t in a while. NK is developing a new ICBM - do you think they won’t go test it?

I guess tangible and symbolic are interchangeable according to need, which I think was what Tanq was pushing with his analogy and which you seem to agree to with the first sentence in your reply.

My point is that we have movement, where before we had none, and that this is going to take a long time, so demands for a signed piece of paper NOW are way over the top.

When you say NK is literally building a stage in their backyard, what do you refer to?

(08-30-2018 07:31 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, using Tanqs silly and overly simplistic house party analogy, NK is literally building a stage in their backyard for their next house party, but Tanq thinks they won’t throw another party because they haven’t in a while. NK is developing a new ICBM - do you think they won’t go test it?

Yet previously you stated

Quote:Yep, the US-NK relations can be easily exemplified by your relationship with rowdy neighbors. Perfect analogy!

Quite the disparity between "perfect analogy" (with superlatives) and "silly and overly simplistic house party". I think I'll start listening to you when you are somewhat consistent and not speaking every fing side. Just saying.

Im just pointing out your steadfast, somewhat bitter clinging to the notion that things are 'back to square one'. Kind of goes hand in hand with absolute goal in life with that TDS you seem to have, to be honest. Thats the reason Im not surprised.

I wish your side of the spectrum would have had that same stick up their ass with the Iranian nuclear program. Funny that. Just saying.

Or perhaps we just act like a super Loomis armored delivery service and drop 500 million to 2 billion in cold hard cash with the mullahs while we stick our heads in the sand -- sounds like a winner plan to me!!!!

And I wish that your side of the spectrum would have had that same stick up their ass over the 8 years previous to Trump re: NK missile and nuclear capabilities. Again, funny that. Just saying.

Are things 'peachy rosy' keen. Far from it. But, the backdrop has actually changed to a degree. So I find it quite amusing that the TDSers yelp about that change in backdrop while steadfastly refusing to even note it. I just wish 'your side' had been as keen and astute (and vocal, mind you) to the issue while Obama literally put those jug ears into the sand on both those proliferation issues.

Quote:But right now, it looks like NK is the same old NK - unwilling to actually make changes that deescalate the situation on the peninsula.

Hmmm... which is 'less escalation' --

a) purportedly building ICBMs;

b) purportedly building ICBMs, throwing missiles over Japan on a monthly basis, violating their sovereign airspace, having your leader threaten to nuke a military base, and constant clamoring for war.

Most rational people would say that a change from b) to a) is a de-escalation. Perhaps not of the scope we may all want to see, but to characterize the delta between the two as 'no change' is just logically stupid.

Yet that is your premise.

Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I find the rush of the liberals/progressives to the 'defense hawk' side *and* to the state's rights side re: federalism to be rather exhilarating. Who would have ever thought it possible?

(08-30-2018 08:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I suggest you google “sarcasm” and get back to me...

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

I am still awaiting your advice on what legal agreement I need to foist upon my neighbors, since that is the obvious solution to life, the universe, and everything. And obviously, I need to otherwise I would be remiss in being "flippant" about it....

And yes, the analogy does point out the various degrees of 'tangible'. I guess that still escapes you.

(08-30-2018 08:42 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

I am still awaiting your advice on what legal agreement I need to foist upon my neighbors, since that is the obvious solution to life, the universe, and everything.

And yes, the analogy does point out the various levels of tangible. I guess that still escapes you.

Yeah, that’s why I made fun of your analogy. It’s overly simplistic. Just like how trying to equate the national budget to a household budget is similarly idiotic.

But to indulge you, you have talked to your neighbors and they have verbally agreed to the terms you stated, correct? If so, that is tangible - there was a conversation where both sides agreed to the stakes. Have we had a verbal agreement made with NK about their tests (or lack there of)?

(08-30-2018 08:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I suggest you google “sarcasm” and get back to me...

Perhaps after you google 'tangible' we should have a group confab on the issue.

(08-30-2018 08:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I suggest you google “sarcasm” and get back to me...

Perhaps after you google 'tangible' we should have a group confab on the issue.

Tangible - clear and definite; real

I don't see a change in behavior that has not been accompanied by a communication indicating that the behavior will be sustained, as tangible progress. There's nothing to indicate it will be sustained, or even that the behavioral change was due to Trump.

All I'm saying is that I do not, and did not, think that Trump should have been lauded or patted on the back for making progress with NK, because there is not tangible progress yet. We are seeing better behavior from them, which is good! But we do not have any reason to think that the behavioral changes are permanent, while we do have a multi-decade history of similar experiences (NK meeting with western and neighboring partners) where progress appeared to have been made, only to see it be unraveled by North Korean actions later on.

Why does me giving Trump credit for this matter so much to you?

(08-30-2018 08:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I suggest you google “sarcasm” and get back to me...

No, I understand sarcasm. I was just applying the same yardstick to you that the MSM applies to Trump.

(08-30-2018 10:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Why does me giving Trump credit for this matter so much to you?

Maybe it was this smart-ass remark:

"...after you and Tanq tried furiously to pat Trump on the back for "progress" that was made."

since then all you have done is try "furiously" to deny that any progress has been made, resting your case totally on the lack of a finished product.

Maybe we need to look up the definition of "progress", while we are at it.

(08-30-2018 10:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I suggest you google “sarcasm” and get back to me...

Perhaps after you google 'tangible' we should have a group confab on the issue.

Tangible - clear and definite; real

I don't see a change in behavior that has not been accompanied by a communication indicating that the behavior will be sustained, as tangible progress. There's nothing to indicate it will be sustained, or even that the behavioral change was due to Trump.

All I'm saying is that I do not, and did not, think that Trump should have been lauded or patted on the back for making progress with NK, because there is not tangible progress yet. We are seeing better behavior from them, which is good! But we do not have any reason to think that the behavioral changes are permanent, while we do have a multi-decade history of similar experiences (NK meeting with western and neighboring partners) where progress appeared to have been made, only to see it be unraveled by North Korean actions later on.

Why does me giving Trump credit for this matter so much to you?

So your entire discourse is:

The place me and my neighbors are in is tangible, even though that is based solely on *potentially* usustainable course of conduct

NK is not tangible,*because* that is based solely on *potentially* unsustainable course of conduct.

Got it.

This is almost as good as your "far worse to listen to Russians" compared to "lets find some russians to talk to" irish jig.

As i said, Mrs Tanq is sure gonna be pissed that there is no tangible difference in the current and previous situations.

As for giving Trump credit, the *only* 'tangible' (haha) credit due is for him getting panda jong un to stop tossing missiles like glitter at a strip club and for calming down the adderall-fueled talk of nuking guam and other places. But you will argue till your ears steam that that isnt 'tangible' -- so be it.

To be equal opportunity -- I will give Obama credit for opening the dialogue to Cuba. Another tangible betterment of a situation. But considering the regime there is also not 'racing' to better the things we want, and have backtracked on others, I guess I shouldnt give any credit there, should I? I mean, that betterment is all built on only 'possibilities' and *potentially* unsustainable conduct there. But, I guess I am being flippant about that as well given your razor-sharp lines in the sand about what the tangible meaning of 'tangible' is (to ghost the famous Bill Clinton deposition line....)

I fail to see where I have lauded Trump for much else re: NK in the interim between the sake summit and now. Im just as disappointed in the lack of progress as many.

I just dont seemingly have that autonomic knee jerk to classify everything as 'the same as before' that seems to emanate from some. Or is that 'failure to classify' some weird warped version of an insta-laud in today's climate?

Have to cut class short, need to go earn some dollars being flippant and actually advising someone that the contract he is perusing that puts a lot of other obligations on him aside from the not-so-formal situation he is in now may not be in his best interest.....

(08-30-2018 10:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 10:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Why does me giving Trump credit for this matter so much to you?

Maybe it was this smart-ass remark:

"...after you and Tanq tried furiously to pat Trump on the back for "progress" that was made."

since then all you have done is try "furiously" to deny that any progress has been made, resting your case totally on the lack of a finished product.

Maybe we need to look up the definition of "progress", while we are at it.

Stop being flippant. No tangible upside to it.

(08-30-2018 11:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 10:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 10:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Why does me giving Trump credit for this matter so much to you?

Maybe it was this smart-ass remark:

"...after you and Tanq tried furiously to pat Trump on the back for "progress" that was made."

since then all you have done is try "furiously" to deny that any progress has been made, resting your case totally on the lack of a finished product.

Maybe we need to look up the definition of "progress", while we are at it.

Stop being flippant. No tangible upside to it.

I will sign a tangible piece of paper saying I will stop being flippant for ten years if you will give me $30B.

Pretty good upside, I think.

(08-30-2018 10:46 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:37 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 08:30 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Wait, you actually thought I was being serious when I said you made a perfect analogy?

So you lied?

I suggest you google “sarcasm” and get back to me...

No, I understand sarcasm. I was just applying the same yardstick to you that the MSM applies to Trump.

Or the same yardstick applied to Flynn. Lucky for Lad's sake none of us are Feebs.

I don't like Trump. I didn't vote for him. But I've spent decades counting on mainstream republicans to protect me from the socialist/communist/collectivist left. And they've done a piss-poor job. If Trump is the only thing protecting me from the likes of Schumer, Pelosi, Bernie, Fauxcohontas, and Ocasio-Cortez, then the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I wish I had another option. But I don't see one.

(08-30-2018 02:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 11:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 10:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 10:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Why does me giving Trump credit for this matter so much to you?

Maybe it was this smart-ass remark:

"...after you and Tanq tried furiously to pat Trump on the back for "progress" that was made."

since then all you have done is try "furiously" to deny that any progress has been made, resting your case totally on the lack of a finished product.

Maybe we need to look up the definition of "progress", while we are at it.

Stop being flippant. No tangible upside to it.

I will sign a tangible piece of paper saying I will stop being flippant for ten years if you will give me $30B.

Pretty good upside, I think.

Can we get that legal agreement done with a real glitzy, shiny embossing? Makes all the difference you know. Perhaps *you* will make an enforceable bigboy promise not to throw a party in your backyard that will keep us awake.

Now that I know that I need a 'legal agreement' to make things tangible, maybe that will be a good thing for me.

And I just realized I need to apologize for the 'Irish jig' comment I made previously. Im sure its racist in some manner. If not to the Irish, maybe its a dog-whistle for slurring those pesky Welsh....

(08-30-2018 04:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't like Trump. I didn't vote for him. But I've spent decades counting on mainstream republicans to protect me from the socialist/communist/collectivist left. And they've done a piss-poor job. If Trump is the only thing protecting me from the likes of Schumer, Pelosi, Bernie, Fauxcohontas, and Ocasio-Cortez, then the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I wish I had another option. But I don't see one.

Gavin Newsome perhaps? Or Kamala Harris?

Interestingly in the last election I debated throwing Hills my vote. It seemed that Trump was bad enough that I might be able to stomach that choice. And, Hills was bad enough to make me seriously think about voting Trump.

I didnt think the Democrats could move in a direction that would make the inclination and reasoning to vote Trump stronger. Yet, if any of the above were in fact the nominee I could very easily see myself pulling the Trump lever next time (assuming the Democrats dont actually impeach him in the interim.....)

Johnson was *just* serious enough for me to throw that lever for him last time. The rest of the Libertarian Party that I saw is the political equivalent of a clown car at the circus. I dont know if I could stomach voting for Bozo....

Seriously, the field seems to be headed to: boorish *******, flaming progressive/liberal/quasi-socialist, or clown car candidate.

I know if a family had three siblings that were at that level, I would seriously counsel the wife to get her tubes tied and the husband to get snipped, fix both parents just to be on the safe side.... If these are the children of out political system god have mercy on our political system......