(05-26-2018 03:02 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 10:29 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 10:02 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Agreed with some of the other posters. I’ve thought about the Marshall, Western Kentucky, and Middle Tennessee St trio to the MAC. As a #4, I’ve considered Old Dominion and James Madison. However, all 5 of those schools have a CUSA-feel to them. The MAC will never kick out one of their twelve full members but the conference has some schools weighing the rest of the down. The MAC has weighed itself down to the bottom of FBS.

No the MWC has weighed itself down to the level of the MAC.

Average ranking

AAC 66.69
MWC 83.81
MAC 87.68
CUSA 90.91
SBC 98.58

https://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare.htm

When it comes to expansion, rankings don’t really matter. Just look at the 2017 attendance numbers - the MAC is dead last with most of the worst averages. The MAC is not a desireable conference in its current form. I love the MAC because I appreciate geographical conferences that maintain rivalries. It is, however, not the model for success moving forward.

Too much deadweight

Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

(05-26-2018 06:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

There it is folks, the random DII straight to FBS call up.
As for the "MAC feel" schools, Indiana State and SIU-C are losing money and have declining enrollment, and no way Illinois State leaves the MVC for a 1 bid league even if it means FBS football.

(05-26-2018 07:37 PM)seaking4steel Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 06:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

There it is folks, the random DII straight to FBS call up.
As for the "MAC feel" schools, Indiana State and SIU-C are losing money and have declining enrollment, and no way Illinois State leaves the MVC for a 1 bid league even if it means FBS football.

MVC have became a 1 bid league themselves as the strong schools left the conference. MVC is backsliding, and several schools are having wondering eyes.

(05-26-2018 07:37 PM)seaking4steel Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 06:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

There it is folks, the random DII straight to FBS call up.
As for the "MAC feel" schools, Indiana State and SIU-C are losing money and have declining enrollment, and no way Illinois State leaves the MVC for a 1 bid league even if it means FBS football.

The MVC is pretty much a one-bid league nowadays.

(05-26-2018 06:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

MAC gains nothing entering Terre Haute and Carbondale (as much a unique college town it is) markets. Indiana St operates as an OVC athletic department. SIU, fiscally, is spiraling towards rock bottom. Good hoops histories and arena but they dilute FB considerably.

Illinois St would be a top half MAC FB program and fit well. It would also weaken NIU as NIU drove itself to a temporary top G5 program by monopolizing non-P5 recruits in IL/WI/IA/MO/etc. ISU is a perfect add if no NIU. They’re a redundant but suitable add as a 14 to Marshall.

It is questionable if ISU would take a MAC invite - they’d be gambling on maintaining their hoops. NIU hoops died moving to the MAC and we all know what happened with Loyola upgrading to ISU’s league. It’s a risk ISU would weigh to be above the FBS cut line.

(05-26-2018 07:37 PM)seaking4steel Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 06:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

There it is folks, the random DII straight to FBS call up.
As for the "MAC feel" schools, Indiana State and SIU-C are losing money and have declining enrollment, and no way Illinois State leaves the MVC for a 1 bid league even if it means FBS football.

You must be a long-time reader of the DavidSt fantasy fiction nonsense.

The best MAC expansion would be to lose one of the Michigan (EMich) and one of the Ohio (Kent or Akron or BGSU) schools to be a more compact 10, where the money improves per school, by dividing TV, Playoff, and NCAA distributions 10 ways instead of 12, and having fewer schools competing for MAC level recruits in the Midwest.

(05-27-2018 03:58 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The best MAC expansion would be to lose one of the Michigan (EMich) and one of the Ohio (Kent or Akron or BGSU) schools to be a more compact 10, where the money improves per school, by dividing TV, Playoff, and NCAA distributions 10 ways instead of 12, and having fewer schools competing for MAC level recruits in the Midwest.

I agree, that would be good for both the MAC and those schools, they’d be able to drop to FCS or D2 and reinvest that money into other sports.

(05-27-2018 03:58 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The best MAC expansion would be to lose one of the Michigan (EMich) and one of the Ohio (Kent or Akron or BGSU) schools to be a more compact 10, where the money improves per school, by dividing TV, Playoff, and NCAA distributions 10 ways instead of 12, and having fewer schools competing for MAC level recruits in the Midwest.

That is a good point. A combination of reducing the congestion and expanding the geo-footprint will go a long way for the MAC. The three obvious schools of interest have already been mentioned (MTSU, WKU, Marshall). UMass could be another interesting option but the disadvantage is that travel costs would be a little bit higher due to their location.

(05-27-2018 03:58 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The best MAC expansion would be to lose one of the Michigan (EMich) and one of the Ohio (Kent or Akron or BGSU) schools to be a more compact 10, where the money improves per school, by dividing TV, Playoff, and NCAA distributions 10 ways instead of 12, and having fewer schools competing for MAC level recruits in the Midwest.

That's all the deadwood there is in the MAC, maybe 2 schools at most.

After that you start cutting into value.

If Milwaukee added football? MAC could have them on their radar as well. That is a state that the MAC does not have a presence in.

Akron and Bowling Green do have some great games that they won over P5. I would think Kent, Miami and E. Michigan are the three deadweights in the conference overall.

(05-28-2018 10:47 AM)WesternSkillet Wrote:  

(05-27-2018 03:58 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The best MAC expansion would be to lose one of the Michigan (EMich) and one of the Ohio (Kent or Akron or BGSU) schools to be a more compact 10, where the money improves per school, by dividing TV, Playoff, and NCAA distributions 10 ways instead of 12, and having fewer schools competing for MAC level recruits in the Midwest.

That is a good point. A combination of reducing the congestion and expanding the geo-footprint will go a long way for the MAC. The three obvious schools of interest have already been mentioned (MTSU, WKU, Marshall). UMass could be another interesting option but the disadvantage is that travel costs would be a little bit higher due to their location.

Why does the MAC geo-footprint need to be expanded?

Staying in the Midwest retains identity.

If we assume Marshall is good for the footprint and BG to the west is good for rivalries who makes a nice 14th?

Charlotte I have thought as a possible because they only play in a 15,000 stadium. The average stadium in CUSA is close to 35,000 I believe.

East: Charlotte, Marshall, Ohio, Miami, Kent, Akron, Buffalo
West: BGSU, Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU, Ball St, N.Illinois

Charlotte is only 6-7 hours from Cleveland so semi regional. They would bring a nice basketball pedigree to the MAC including a Final Four appearance.

(05-28-2018 01:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  If Milwaukee added football? MAC could have them on their radar as well. That is a state that the MAC does not have a presence in.

What fantasy world do you live in? It’s an honest question.

If you are looking for candidates to lose go by finances, which I summarize here from USAToday


By every measure EMich is really sick. Kent and Ball are also not healthy in terms of true revenue, but they fund most of athletics through student fees and are not too bad in using institutional money -- they really lack the community support to be FBS, but if the students pay for it, it's hard to say they should drop. EMich howvere should give it up, they simply lack the level of support for D-I athletics and frankly are stealing tax payer money; Less than 4% of the budget comes from gate and donations, and $0 from students (why I question the veracity of the claim the $30M football facility can be paid for with donations, unless they are cannibalizing donations to the school itself, given Athletics pulls only $600K annually in donations)

CMich has terrible gate, but OK contributions. Akron, CMich and WMich like EMich, have $0 student fees and are transferring what should be criminal levels of tax payers institutional dollars into the programs. Buffalo leans too much on that as well. This could make them candidates to drop as well, with States beginning to focus on the high level of tax payer dollars being transferred. These schools need to get a significant component of their subsidy funded by student fees to avoid the guillotine.

Conclusion, EMich is the one to go.

For looking at any new schools, James Madison is the top candidate. They would help recruiting by expanding the base, and they are interested in being with Ohio and Miami U. If expansion is simply a trade of EMich for JMU, that would be a win for the MAC.

(05-26-2018 11:44 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 07:37 PM)seaking4steel Wrote:  

(05-26-2018 06:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Well, Illinois State, Indiana State and southern Illinois do have the MAC feel in them. They were D1 A aka FBS independents in the early days. All three are already rivals to the MAC schools in all sports already.

If there is a central plains conference to form with the Dakota schools, Minnesota schools, Missouri State, Northern Iowa and some Texas schools would be okay. Oklahoma is growing, and could use a 4th FBS school in the state. Central Oklahoma is in position to be that school in the future since they do have some sugar daddies that donate a lot of money for the athletics.

There it is folks, the random DII straight to FBS call up.
As for the "MAC feel" schools, Indiana State and SIU-C are losing money and have declining enrollment, and no way Illinois State leaves the MVC for a 1 bid league even if it means FBS football.

You must be a long-time reader of the DavidSt fantasy fiction nonsense.

Indeed. It's my favorite genre.

(05-28-2018 01:22 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If we assume Marshall is good for the footprint and BG to the west is good for rivalries who makes a nice 14th?

Charlotte I have thought as a possible because they only play in a 15,000 stadium. The average stadium in CUSA is close to 35,000 I believe.

East: Charlotte, Marshall, Ohio, Miami, Kent, Akron, Buffalo
West: BGSU, Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU, Ball St, N.Illinois

Charlotte is only 6-7 hours from Cleveland so semi regional. They would bring a nice basketball pedigree to the MAC including a Final Four appearance.

I don’t think Charlotte is a bad option but I would guess Old Dominion or James Madison would be called beforehand. I don’t believe James Madison would accept the invite though and I would doubt Old Dominion would. Western Kentucky fits geographically but would probably not want to part from Middle Tennessee St. A school like Delaware would be decent.

I honestly don’t see the MAC, in it’s current form, as enticing to any school.

(05-28-2018 03:33 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(05-28-2018 01:22 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If we assume Marshall is good for the footprint and BG to the west is good for rivalries who makes a nice 14th?

Charlotte I have thought as a possible because they only play in a 15,000 stadium. The average stadium in CUSA is close to 35,000 I believe.

East: Charlotte, Marshall, Ohio, Miami, Kent, Akron, Buffalo
West: BGSU, Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU, Ball St, N.Illinois

Charlotte is only 6-7 hours from Cleveland so semi regional. They would bring a nice basketball pedigree to the MAC including a Final Four appearance.

I don’t think Charlotte is a bad option but I would guess Old Dominion or James Madison would be called beforehand. I don’t believe James Madison would accept the invite though and I would doubt Old Dominion would. Western Kentucky fits geographically but would probably not want to part from Middle Tennessee St. A school like Delaware would be decent.

I guess a lot of the arguments I applied to Charlotte would also apply to ODU, that is its a program with a stadium in the low 20k range which is more MAC sized and that ODU is a nice basketball oriented compliment to Marshall's football orientation.

Western Kentucky is problematic geographically. Its as far west as WMU so it belongs really in the MAC West division. The MAC already has directional Michigan headaches so a second western and a second bowling green adds to that.

Delaware good market and academics. The problem with Delaware is because they are not in a strong recruiting state they'll likely be over their head at the G5 level.

(05-28-2018 03:33 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I honestly don’t see the MAC, in it’s current form, as enticing to any school.

The thought was that more schools in the MAC would pull a Marshall and slide up to a bigger conference. Cincinnati did it early by going indy and joining the MVC.

What has happened instead is programs like NIU and Toledo built value but have stayed in it for the cost model. NIU applied to the Big XII. They certainly are not going to bother with moving to CUSA like Marshall did.

If NIU, Toledo and Buffalo hit the doors the MAC could bring in Illinois St, Northern Iowa and NDSU-FB only. 11 in basketball for a 20 game schedule. Beat the Valley down some more by taking ISU and UNI.

The MAC has resilience. Some have overtures to leave but would rather stay when the conference might actually be better with the departures. Any other G5 conference if it was to lose its top 3 programs it would be a total disaster. In the MAC it opens up possibilities.