The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

To put it in perspective.

We won 25 games last season, had a second place CUSA finish, Top 75 RPI...

But what did we really accomplish? We beat who we were supposed to beat. Marshall X2 was our best win.

We still can't beat W&M or VCU, and didn't even get an NIT bid.

25 wins with the schedule we had seems pretty empty, but I guess that's better than 24.

(05-04-2018 11:28 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

Im glad he's chosen to stick it out and fight for that spot here.

(05-03-2018 06:57 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 05:23 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 04:26 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 03:57 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 03:27 PM)monarx Wrote:  If Im not mistaken he also has the fewest NCAA appearances of any ODU coach over a 6 year span in school history.

And do you really want to hang your hat on being third? I could understand touting this if he was first... but this is really stretching for something positive to spin.

I never understand how people criticize self promotion of the school. Whether you like Jones or not or you think the win total is not impressive, this is what you want the school doing it. Some kid may see it and say "dang, thats a lot of wins, I want to go there."

It's like the school is not supposed to but anything positive out.

Not really criticizing the school, they have to do something. Its more how this validates criticism of JJ. Too bad we don't have something better to brag about. It just comes across as grasping for straws by touting the third best percentage over a cherry picked 4 year period taken out of context. Almost like bragging about a participation trophy. If it somehow helps, then go for it. I just wish we had something other than the NIT F4 in the JJ era to legitimately put out there. If it was the best winning percentage of any ODU hoops coach ever, or most NCAAs in the shortest period of time, best record ever... something like that, it would carry a lot more weight.

It's a reasonable accomplishment to point out (and when you look at it closer, it's really comparing Jones's four-year span to a five-year span for BT [2007-12]). Now you can argue that promoting the W-L stripped of its context (no CUSA titles, no NCAAs, one NIT, few top 100 wins and very few top 50 wins) is misleading, but I don't see how it validates criticism of his coaching or recruiting or whatever any more than a .500 record against better competition would validate compliments of another coach.

The fact that you can’t see how it validates the criticism is a VERY big problem lol.

How exactly does "one of the best four-year records in school history" validate opinions that he's a bad coach or needs to be fired? You can diminish the value of the accomplishment, make a reasonable case that it's not as impressive as it sounds, but who in their right mind is going to say "Jeff Jones went 96-40 in the past four years; see, I told you he sucked!"

There's plenty of empirical evidence that point to JJ having a disappointing run, at least by some fan standards. But 96 wins in four seasons, on its own, doesn't prove the argument.

Borat says Kazakstan is #1 in Potassium. Therefore, it's a great country.

The point being that a ranking or a number is just a number, until it's put into perspective. Beating 150+ RPI teams < Beating RPI 50-100 Teams. The only reason to feel good about racking up a bunch of wins against creampuffs, is that you know you're better than a creampuff. Not beating anybody of significance in big games is a dead end. It's analogous to taking your cousin to the prom. Sure, you have a date to the prom, but nothing is going to come of it. Unless you're from West Virginia, you're not going to marry her and start a family. And if you do, that "family" is going to look a lot like the CBI or CIT or Vegas 8/16.

(05-04-2018 12:27 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  Borat says Kazakstan is #1 in Potassium. Therefore, it's a great country.

The point being that a ranking or a number is just a number, until it's put into perspective. Beating 150+ RPI teams < Beating RPI 50-100 Teams. The only reason to feel good about racking up a bunch of wins against creampuffs, is that you know you're better than a creampuff. Not beating anybody of significance in big games is a dead end. It's analogous to taking your cousin to the prom. Sure, you have a date to the prom, but nothing is going to come of it. Unless you're from West Virginia, you're not going to marry her and start a family. And if you do, that "family" is going to look a lot like the CBI or CIT or Vegas 8/16.

Right but I'm ceding the point that obviously ODU could be better with regards to the postseason and beating two of their three big rivals while at the same time arguing the point that 96 wins in four seasons does NOT in and of itself mean that the program is bad or that the coach sucks.

FWIW, I think a lot of D1 programs would like to have ODU's last four seasons, postseason letdowns notwithstanding. That doesn't mean that things can't or shouldn't be better, but it's not like ODU is the Gardner-Webb JV squad or something.

(05-04-2018 11:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 11:28 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

Im glad he's chosen to stick it out and fight for that spot here.

So getlikemahd is Caver and he's responding to that other person who said March Madness next year is a must by saying facts 100, aka I agree completely, and therefor it is implied that he will be back next year.

(05-04-2018 02:59 PM)bit_9 Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 11:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 11:28 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

Im glad he's chosen to stick it out and fight for that spot here.

So getlikemahd is Caver and he's responding to that other person who said March Madness next year is a must by saying facts 100, aka I agree completely, and therefor it is implied that he will be back next year.

Was their ever any doubt that he'd be back?

(05-04-2018 12:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:27 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  Borat says Kazakstan is #1 in Potassium. Therefore, it's a great country.

The point being that a ranking or a number is just a number, until it's put into perspective. Beating 150+ RPI teams < Beating RPI 50-100 Teams. The only reason to feel good about racking up a bunch of wins against creampuffs, is that you know you're better than a creampuff. Not beating anybody of significance in big games is a dead end. It's analogous to taking your cousin to the prom. Sure, you have a date to the prom, but nothing is going to come of it. Unless you're from West Virginia, you're not going to marry her and start a family. And if you do, that "family" is going to look a lot like the CBI or CIT or Vegas 8/16.

Right but I'm ceding the point that obviously ODU could be better with regards to the postseason and beating two of their three big rivals while at the same time arguing the point that 96 wins in four seasons does NOT in and of itself mean that the program is bad or that the coach sucks.

FWIW, I think a lot of D1 programs would like to have ODU's last four seasons, postseason letdowns notwithstanding. That doesn't mean that things can't or shouldn't be better, but it's not like ODU is the Gardner-Webb JV squad or something.

But we're not lots of programs. We're ODU and post season play is expected. JJ record can never be viewed strictly in terms of wins/losses. That has no context. His record is vastly diminished when you cond=sider who his teams beat, who they lose to and how many post season tourneys his tams make. All things considered, he's failing IMHO.

JJ is exactly what many of us were afraid of. Able to deliver lots of cotton candy wins, not good enough to get us to the dance and not bad enough to fire.

(05-04-2018 04:13 PM)ODU_NYG Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 02:59 PM)bit_9 Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 11:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 11:28 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

Im glad he's chosen to stick it out and fight for that spot here.

So getlikemahd is Caver and he's responding to that other person who said March Madness next year is a must by saying facts 100, aka I agree completely, and therefor it is implied that he will be back next year.

Was their ever any doubt that he'd be back?

No. Just saying with the nature today, its admirable that hes not taking the easy way.

(05-04-2018 04:38 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:27 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  Borat says Kazakstan is #1 in Potassium. Therefore, it's a great country.

The point being that a ranking or a number is just a number, until it's put into perspective. Beating 150+ RPI teams < Beating RPI 50-100 Teams. The only reason to feel good about racking up a bunch of wins against creampuffs, is that you know you're better than a creampuff. Not beating anybody of significance in big games is a dead end. It's analogous to taking your cousin to the prom. Sure, you have a date to the prom, but nothing is going to come of it. Unless you're from West Virginia, you're not going to marry her and start a family. And if you do, that "family" is going to look a lot like the CBI or CIT or Vegas 8/16.

Right but I'm ceding the point that obviously ODU could be better with regards to the postseason and beating two of their three big rivals while at the same time arguing the point that 96 wins in four seasons does NOT in and of itself mean that the program is bad or that the coach sucks.

FWIW, I think a lot of D1 programs would like to have ODU's last four seasons, postseason letdowns notwithstanding. That doesn't mean that things can't or shouldn't be better, but it's not like ODU is the Gardner-Webb JV squad or something.

But we're not lots of programs. We're ODU and post season play is expected. JJ record can never be viewed strictly in terms of wins/losses. That has no context. His record is vastly diminished when you cond=sider who his teams beat, who they lose to and how many post season tourneys his tams make. All things considered, he's failing IMHO.

JJ is exactly what many of us were afraid of. Able to deliver lots of cotton candy wins, not good enough to get us to the dance and not bad enough to fire.

Unpopular opinion time: This "we're not lots of programs; we're ODU and postseason play is expected" argument that's popular around here doesn't really hold up. ODU has three NCAA wins in its D1 history — VCU and George Mason beat that in one year and Richmond tied it. ODU has only been to back-to-back NCAAs twice. ODU has 11 NCAA appearances in the 40-ish seasons they've been in D1, tied with a bunch of schools for which the NCAAs are a reasonable goal but NOT an expectation (except Clemson, but that's because of how good that program is in the now). But the way people go on around here, you'd think this was Memphis enduring Tubby Smith.

ODU is a fine program with decent successes and great facilities. There's certainly no reason to think they *can't* be consistently good, or have an NCAA run similar to VCU's recent stretch. But I think treating is as some sort of, I dunno, entitlement doesn't jibe with their history.

As you stated, ODU has 11 NCAA Tourney appearances in its history. How many wins they have in those tournament appearances has nothing to do with the comment that you replied to which was ... "We're ODU and post season play is expected". Getting there achieved that point. I believe that the poster also was probably referencing the NIT as well as the NCAA Tournament with that comment.

If you take a look at the Paul Webb era at ODU, and more recently, the Blaine Taylor era, you will see that it was a reasonable comment.

I don't think that anyone is treating ODU and the NCAA Tourney as an entitlement, or the school as the 2nd coming of Memphis. All people seem to be saying in general is that ODU has taken a few steps back from where they recently were in getting to the post season on a much more regular basis - not including any tournaments other than the NCAA or NIT.

(05-04-2018 06:26 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 04:38 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:27 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  Borat says Kazakstan is #1 in Potassium. Therefore, it's a great country.

The point being that a ranking or a number is just a number, until it's put into perspective. Beating 150+ RPI teams < Beating RPI 50-100 Teams. The only reason to feel good about racking up a bunch of wins against creampuffs, is that you know you're better than a creampuff. Not beating anybody of significance in big games is a dead end. It's analogous to taking your cousin to the prom. Sure, you have a date to the prom, but nothing is going to come of it. Unless you're from West Virginia, you're not going to marry her and start a family. And if you do, that "family" is going to look a lot like the CBI or CIT or Vegas 8/16.

Right but I'm ceding the point that obviously ODU could be better with regards to the postseason and beating two of their three big rivals while at the same time arguing the point that 96 wins in four seasons does NOT in and of itself mean that the program is bad or that the coach sucks.

FWIW, I think a lot of D1 programs would like to have ODU's last four seasons, postseason letdowns notwithstanding. That doesn't mean that things can't or shouldn't be better, but it's not like ODU is the Gardner-Webb JV squad or something.

But we're not lots of programs. We're ODU and post season play is expected. JJ record can never be viewed strictly in terms of wins/losses. That has no context. His record is vastly diminished when you cond=sider who his teams beat, who they lose to and how many post season tourneys his tams make. All things considered, he's failing IMHO.

JJ is exactly what many of us were afraid of. Able to deliver lots of cotton candy wins, not good enough to get us to the dance and not bad enough to fire.

Unpopular opinion time: This "we're not lots of programs; we're ODU and postseason play is expected" argument that's popular around here doesn't really hold up. ODU has three NCAA wins in its D1 history — VCU and George Mason beat that in one year and Richmond tied it. ODU has only been to back-to-back NCAAs twice. ODU has 11 NCAA appearances in the 40-ish seasons they've been in D1, tied with a bunch of schools for which the NCAAs are a reasonable goal but NOT an expectation (except Clemson, but that's because of how good that program is in the now). But the way people go on around here, you'd think this was Memphis enduring Tubby Smith.

ODU is a fine program with decent successes and great facilities. There's certainly no reason to think they *can't* be consistently good, or have an NCAA run similar to VCU's recent stretch. But I think treating is as some sort of, I dunno, entitlement doesn't jibe with their history.

Unpopular on here yet it's true. There's a reason why there's several fans on the conference board who hate us. Sometimes we come across as entitled and that we should be the best and this conference is a stepping stone for a move up, when in reality we've done jack since joining the conference unless you count losing championship games.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

(05-04-2018 09:09 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  As you stated, ODU has 11 NCAA Tourney appearances in its history. How many wins they have in those tournament appearances has nothing to do with the comment that you replied to which was ... "We're ODU and post season play is expected". Getting there achieved that point. I believe that the poster also was probably referencing the NIT as well as the NCAA Tournament with that comment.

If you take a look at the Paul Webb era at ODU, and more recently, the Blaine Taylor era, you will see that it was a reasonable comment.

I don't think that anyone is treating ODU and the NCAA Tourney as an entitlement, or the school as the 2nd coming of Memphis. All people seem to be saying in general is that ODU has taken a few steps back from where they recently were in getting to the post season on a much more regular basis - not including any tournaments other than the NCAA or NIT.

OK, so take the NCAA results out of the equation. We're still talking about making the tournament 25 percent of the time and only making the tournament back to back twice. That's still not a record that screams "we expect postseason play."

The funny thing is, you find one more win during the NIT Final Four run, score three more points against Middle Tennessee in the 2016 CUSA final and have that big goof for W&M miss that heave at the end this past season, and you're looking at JJ with 98 wins, two NCAA trips and an NIT bid. Effectively the same results, but they look a LOT better.

(05-04-2018 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 09:09 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  As you stated, ODU has 11 NCAA Tourney appearances in its history. How many wins they have in those tournament appearances has nothing to do with the comment that you replied to which was ... "We're ODU and post season play is expected". Getting there achieved that point. I believe that the poster also was probably referencing the NIT as well as the NCAA Tournament with that comment.

If you take a look at the Paul Webb era at ODU, and more recently, the Blaine Taylor era, you will see that it was a reasonable comment.

I don't think that anyone is treating ODU and the NCAA Tourney as an entitlement, or the school as the 2nd coming of Memphis. All people seem to be saying in general is that ODU has taken a few steps back from where they recently were in getting to the post season on a much more regular basis - not including any tournaments other than the NCAA or NIT.

OK, so take the NCAA results out of the equation. We're still talking about making the tournament 25 percent of the time and only making the tournament back to back twice. That's still not a record that screams "we expect postseason play."

The funny thing is, you find one more win during the NIT Final Four run, score three more points against Middle Tennessee in the 2016 CUSA final and have that big goof for W&M miss that heave at the end this past season, and you're looking at JJ with 98 wins, two NCAA trips and an NIT bid. Effectively the same results, but they look a LOT better.

Not that it matters, but scoring 3 more points against Middle Tennessee doesn't give ODU two NCAA trips under Jeff.

No point in playing the "what if" game when we have actual results - or lack thereof - to review. Otherwise, you could just as easily say that had ODU score three more points against Butler in DC, they could have gone to the Final Four instead of them, and defeated VCU there for the 3rd time that season to go to the NCAA Championship game.

Had Jeff's ODU teams actually accomplished those things that you said above instead of pretending they did then I doubt very many on here would be hoping for something better coaching wise.

(05-04-2018 10:15 PM)odu09 Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 06:26 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 04:38 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:27 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  Borat says Kazakstan is #1 in Potassium. Therefore, it's a great country.

The point being that a ranking or a number is just a number, until it's put into perspective. Beating 150+ RPI teams < Beating RPI 50-100 Teams. The only reason to feel good about racking up a bunch of wins against creampuffs, is that you know you're better than a creampuff. Not beating anybody of significance in big games is a dead end. It's analogous to taking your cousin to the prom. Sure, you have a date to the prom, but nothing is going to come of it. Unless you're from West Virginia, you're not going to marry her and start a family. And if you do, that "family" is going to look a lot like the CBI or CIT or Vegas 8/16.

Right but I'm ceding the point that obviously ODU could be better with regards to the postseason and beating two of their three big rivals while at the same time arguing the point that 96 wins in four seasons does NOT in and of itself mean that the program is bad or that the coach sucks.

FWIW, I think a lot of D1 programs would like to have ODU's last four seasons, postseason letdowns notwithstanding. That doesn't mean that things can't or shouldn't be better, but it's not like ODU is the Gardner-Webb JV squad or something.

But we're not lots of programs. We're ODU and post season play is expected. JJ record can never be viewed strictly in terms of wins/losses. That has no context. His record is vastly diminished when you cond=sider who his teams beat, who they lose to and how many post season tourneys his tams make. All things considered, he's failing IMHO.

JJ is exactly what many of us were afraid of. Able to deliver lots of cotton candy wins, not good enough to get us to the dance and not bad enough to fire.

Unpopular opinion time: This "we're not lots of programs; we're ODU and postseason play is expected" argument that's popular around here doesn't really hold up. ODU has three NCAA wins in its D1 history — VCU and George Mason beat that in one year and Richmond tied it. ODU has only been to back-to-back NCAAs twice. ODU has 11 NCAA appearances in the 40-ish seasons they've been in D1, tied with a bunch of schools for which the NCAAs are a reasonable goal but NOT an expectation (except Clemson, but that's because of how good that program is in the now). But the way people go on around here, you'd think this was Memphis enduring Tubby Smith.

ODU is a fine program with decent successes and great facilities. There's certainly no reason to think they *can't* be consistently good, or have an NCAA run similar to VCU's recent stretch. But I think treating is as some sort of, I dunno, entitlement doesn't jibe with their history.

Unpopular on here yet it's true. There's a reason why there's several fans on the conference board who hate us. Sometimes we come across as entitled and that we should be the best and this conference is a stepping stone for a move up, when in reality we've done jack since joining the conference unless you count losing championship games.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Don't really care if other fans hate us, in fact that's what fuels rivalry's. Entitled seems to be the term de jour. I prefer expect. Don't see anything wrong with that either. My EXPECTATION is that ODU will fairly consistently appear in either the NCAA's or NIT. Anything less does not meet my expectations. JJ has proven he is not capable of meeting my expectations.

(05-04-2018 11:14 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Not that it matters, but scoring 3 more points against Middle Tennessee doesn't give ODU two NCAA trips under Jeff.

Three points against Middle Tennessee = NCAA trip
One more win in 2014-15 = from NIT top seed to NCAA First Four
W&M prayer goes unanswered = from NIT bubble to NIT 6 seed

Quote:No point in playing the "what if" game when we have actual results - or lack thereof - to review. Otherwise, you could just as easily say that had ODU score three more points against Butler in DC, they could have gone to the Final Four instead of them, and defeated VCU there for the 3rd time that season to go to the NCAA Championship game.

That's actually not an unreasonable possibility, given that ODU matched up pretty well with the teams that they would have played, and I've brought that up as a what-if before. My point with this was to show how very subtle changes to three of their games would likely have given them *much* better results even though essentially they're the same team than one that we saw. Pointing out the fine line between "get this loser out of here" and "hail hail the conquering hero," unless people would be pushing for his ouster with 98 wins and two NCAA trips in four seasons. Which is certainly possible.

Quote:Had Jeff's ODU teams actually accomplished those things that you said above instead of pretending they did then I doubt very many on here would be hoping for something better coaching wise.

Which is exactly my point. If those breaks went his way, it's not as though the team would have been dramatically better. It would have been the same team with happier conclusions. Does he suddenly become a much better coach because of that?

(05-05-2018 06:13 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 10:15 PM)odu09 Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 06:26 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 04:38 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 12:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Right but I'm ceding the point that obviously ODU could be better with regards to the postseason and beating two of their three big rivals while at the same time arguing the point that 96 wins in four seasons does NOT in and of itself mean that the program is bad or that the coach sucks.

FWIW, I think a lot of D1 programs would like to have ODU's last four seasons, postseason letdowns notwithstanding. That doesn't mean that things can't or shouldn't be better, but it's not like ODU is the Gardner-Webb JV squad or something.

But we're not lots of programs. We're ODU and post season play is expected. JJ record can never be viewed strictly in terms of wins/losses. That has no context. His record is vastly diminished when you cond=sider who his teams beat, who they lose to and how many post season tourneys his tams make. All things considered, he's failing IMHO.

JJ is exactly what many of us were afraid of. Able to deliver lots of cotton candy wins, not good enough to get us to the dance and not bad enough to fire.

Unpopular opinion time: This "we're not lots of programs; we're ODU and postseason play is expected" argument that's popular around here doesn't really hold up. ODU has three NCAA wins in its D1 history — VCU and George Mason beat that in one year and Richmond tied it. ODU has only been to back-to-back NCAAs twice. ODU has 11 NCAA appearances in the 40-ish seasons they've been in D1, tied with a bunch of schools for which the NCAAs are a reasonable goal but NOT an expectation (except Clemson, but that's because of how good that program is in the now). But the way people go on around here, you'd think this was Memphis enduring Tubby Smith.

ODU is a fine program with decent successes and great facilities. There's certainly no reason to think they *can't* be consistently good, or have an NCAA run similar to VCU's recent stretch. But I think treating is as some sort of, I dunno, entitlement doesn't jibe with their history.

Unpopular on here yet it's true. There's a reason why there's several fans on the conference board who hate us. Sometimes we come across as entitled and that we should be the best and this conference is a stepping stone for a move up, when in reality we've done jack since joining the conference unless you count losing championship games.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Don't really care if other fans hate us, in fact that's what fuels rivalry's. Entitled seems to be the term de jour. I prefer expect. Don't see anything wrong with that either. My EXPECTATION is that ODU will fairly consistently appear in either the NCAA's or NIT. Anything less does not meet my expectations. JJ has proven he is not capable of meeting my expectations.

I agree and would add that those expectations are fueled by former coaches and results like these -

Paul Webb:
10 seasons at ODU
4 NCAA Tournaments (includes 1 in Division 2)
5 NIT Tournaments

Blaine Taylor:
12 seasons at ODU
4 NCAA Tournaments
1 NIT Tournament (Final Four)

(05-05-2018 09:14 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 11:14 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Not that it matters, but scoring 3 more points against Middle Tennessee doesn't give ODU two NCAA trips under Jeff.

Three points against Middle Tennessee = NCAA trip
One more win in 2014-15 = from NIT top seed to NCAA First Four (speculation, not a certainty).
W&M prayer goes unanswered = from NIT bubble to NIT 6 seed (speculation, not a certainty).

Quote:No point in playing the "what if" game when we have actual results - or lack thereof - to review. Otherwise, you could just as easily say that had ODU score three more points against Butler in DC, they could have gone to the Final Four instead of them, and defeated VCU there for the 3rd time that season to go to the NCAA Championship game.

That's actually not an unreasonable possibility, given that ODU matched up pretty well with the teams that they would have played, and I've brought that up as a what-if before. My point with this was to show how very subtle changes to three of their games would likely have given them *much* better results even though essentially they're the same team than one that we saw. Pointing out the fine line between "get this loser out of here" and "hail hail the conquering hero," unless people would be pushing for his ouster with 98 wins and two NCAA trips in four seasons. Which is certainly possible.

Quote:Had Jeff's ODU teams actually accomplished those things that you said above instead of pretending they did then I doubt very many on here would be hoping for something better coaching wise.

Which is exactly my point. If those breaks went his way, it's not as though the team would have been dramatically better. It would have been the same team with happier conclusions. Does he suddenly become a much better coach because of that?

It's simple. Jeff grades out better when his ODU teams actually achieve those things instead of just coming close to achieving them. Lots of coaches get replaced because they only came close (but no cigar). If a coach is good enough to get those things accomplished but got a bad break or two, then the law of averages would also state that he would have a year or two where he got a good break or two. Either way, ODU has not gotten much - i.e. they have come up short - in the areas you have discussed here under Jones.

As far as expectations go, I expect to beat W&M every time we play them, at least beat VCU every other meeting, and beat MTSU at least once, period.

That's my minimum expectation, and we're far from it.