So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

Within 3 months is a hell of a lot different than at conception.

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You sure are quick to believe polls that support what you believe no matter how many times the group has failed on the same question.

(01-22-2018 02:24 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Within 3 months is a hell of a lot different than at conception.

But the Democrats in Congress fight any and all restrictions and support the most egregious forms of abortion.

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

I'm opposed to abortion BUT
A couple I've known for some time really really wanted to have a child.

They prayed for one, they asked their friends, family, and small group at church to pray for it.

She got pregnant.

One day she had a horrible headache. Thought she was having a migraine. Finally got up to go get some Tylenol and an ice pack, got dizzy nearly fell then looked in the mirror and her nose had started bleeding. Couldn't get it to stop, starting get sick. Had family drive her to the doctor her blood pressure is so high her doctor wouldn't permit her family to drive her on to the ER, made them take an ambulance. She ends up in ICU, her kidneys are shutting down they are afraid of a cerebral hemorrhage.

They run through the full gamut of drugs and therapies and nothing is working. She has eclampsia.

My friend asks the doctor if the baby will be OK and he's told there's less than a 30% chance his wife will survive at this point.

They give her drugs to abort the child they so desperately wanted.

A few hours later her blood pressure is down but her kidneys are severely damaged. So damaged that three years later she has to have a transplant.

If abortion were illegal any sensible law would cover that and everything is OK right?
No. If abortion is illegal the doctor is subject to second guessing. Someone else can skim the file and say no you blew it, there were still choices and the doctor gets a suspended license, or revoked license or jail. Some bean counter at the hospital is looking over their shoulder saying no don't do it to CYA in the event there is second guessing.

Or you can have a system that others propose. Get a judicial order. So you track down a judge during the night and ask this person with little to no medical knowledge to make the call. Now in most states judges are elected, so if the judge says yes, a political opponent will be campaigning saying look at this he granted 100% of abortion requests. Well he doesn't want that so why not say no?

If it is done judicially, any nosey SOB who wants can trot down to the courthouse and get a list of people who got abortions and put it all over the internet.

Well we could make it a sealed record. Great except there is always the risk someone leaks it. Charlize Theron did an adoption and it was supposed to be sealed and it got leaked.

I have a hard time supporting laws that leave critical medical decisions up to judges in an emergency situation and I have a hard time supporting laws that make doctors fear for their freedom and livelihood in critical situations.

Want to ban it at viability, I'm cool with that.

That's the medical reality for all procedures we have now. Why make a special carve out for abortion. I'm all for reforms but across the board.

(01-22-2018 02:36 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:24 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Within 3 months is a hell of a lot different than at conception.

But the Democrats in Congress fight any and all restrictions and support the most egregious forms of abortion.

Hmm, well I can't speak to that, I can understand some restrictions but it depends a lot on what they are.

(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

(01-22-2018 04:22 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I'm opposed to abortion BUT
A couple I've known for some time really really wanted to have a child.

They prayed for one, they asked their friends, family, and small group at church to pray for it.

She got pregnant.

One day she had a horrible headache. Thought she was having a migraine. Finally got up to go get some Tylenol and an ice pack, got dizzy nearly fell then looked in the mirror and her nose had started bleeding. Couldn't get it to stop, starting get sick. Had family drive her to the doctor her blood pressure is so high her doctor wouldn't permit her family to drive her on to the ER, made them take an ambulance. She ends up in ICU, her kidneys are shutting down they are afraid of a cerebral hemorrhage.

They run through the full gamut of drugs and therapies and nothing is working. She has eclampsia.

My friend asks the doctor if the baby will be OK and he's told there's less than a 30% chance his wife will survive at this point.

They give her drugs to abort the child they so desperately wanted.

A few hours later her blood pressure is down but her kidneys are severely damaged. So damaged that three years later she has to have a transplant.

If abortion were illegal any sensible law would cover that and everything is OK right?
No. If abortion is illegal the doctor is subject to second guessing. Someone else can skim the file and say no you blew it, there were still choices and the doctor gets a suspended license, or revoked license or jail. Some bean counter at the hospital is looking over their shoulder saying no don't do it to CYA in the event there is second guessing.

Or you can have a system that others propose. Get a judicial order. So you track down a judge during the night and ask this person with little to no medical knowledge to make the call. Now in most states judges are elected, so if the judge says yes, a political opponent will be campaigning saying look at this he granted 100% of abortion requests. Well he doesn't want that so why not say no?

If it is done judicially, any nosey SOB who wants can trot down to the courthouse and get a list of people who got abortions and put it all over the internet.

Well we could make it a sealed record. Great except there is always the risk someone leaks it. Charlize Theron did an adoption and it was supposed to be sealed and it got leaked.

I have a hard time supporting laws that leave critical medical decisions up to judges in an emergency situation and I have a hard time supporting laws that make doctors fear for their freedom and livelihood in critical situations.

Want to ban it at viability, I'm cool with that.

viability is as early as 20 weeks now with medical intervention.

(01-22-2018 04:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

An unborn baby has zero say in the matter… zero. Totally innocent.

In the great majority of cases...the woman did have a say in the matter because she chose to have sex…the act of sexual intercourse can result in a baby. Spread your legs and you are making a choice i.e. having a say in the matter.

(I used great majority because of course this would not be the case in rape or incest. In those rare situations the woman does have no say in the matter.)

(01-22-2018 04:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

In the vast majority of cases, the woman's life is not on the line. Only the baby's life is.

A womans rights should not trump a babys right to life, particularly just because its a terrible inconvenience for the woman and is bad for her social life.

(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

It depends on how you view it, unborn baby or a cluster of cells. Where that line gets crossed is all philosophical until around the end of the first trimester, IMO.

It's an issue people are just going to have to disagree on. There's not (and won't be) enough push from either side to make it budge from where it is. It doesn't move the majority of the country either way. People are generally satisfied where we are on this issue.

This is yet another area where science is actually hurting the lefts position, not helping it.

(01-22-2018 04:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

Uh, yeah. She definitely had a say in it.

(01-22-2018 06:27 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(01-21-2018 02:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  So why is the Democratic Party so anti-life? I think the answer is simple. 2nd biggest contributor to their Georgia 6th candidate-Planned Parenthood. Democrats are supporting their donors.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/1...-time.html

"...An annual poll released Wednesday by The Knights of Columbus and Marist on Americans’ abortion views found that 63 percent of Americans now strongly support a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, up from 59 percent just a year ago. The number of Democrats who support the same ban has increased to 56 percent from 49 percent in January 2017. Also noteworthy is that 61 percent of Democrats want significant restrictions on abortion.
The poll also found that 62 percent of Americans said they believe life begins within the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy. Among those who believe life begins at conception, 46 percent said they believe so because it is “a biological and scientific fact,” versus 45 percent who said they believe it based on “a philosophical or religious belief....”"

Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

It depends on how you view it, unborn baby or a cluster of cells. Where that line gets crossed is all philosophical until around the end of the first trimester, IMO.

It's an issue people are just going to have to disagree on. There's not (and won't be) enough push from either side to make it budge from where it is. It doesn't move the majority of the country either way. People are generally satisfied where we are on this issue.

I think the proponents of abortion are satisfied, we're where they want us. Don't think those of us opposed are satisfied.

I’ll just never understand how one can be so sure in their viewpoints of another’s life. I’ve seen enough neglect in my life and yes never being born is a better existence than being neglected and abused mentally and physically. You guys think we have nightmare stories now with crappy parents. Make abortion illegal. That’s the ones that don’t want them. Now how about the people who are carrying children with chromosomalmdisorders. 1 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. Now throw a trisomy condition out there that is guaranteed to end in death. You want to force a mother to carry out a pregnancy. I will NEVER understand that. Now put yourself in the shoes of a parent who has a special needs child. Don’t you think that special needs kid is going to be better taken care of if the parents had a choice in if it went to term. Now how will that child be treated if the parents were forced to have the child by force of government? It just doesn’t make sense. No libertarian could be in favor of such an astounding invasion of ones privacy. It’s a medical privacy issue at heart.

(01-22-2018 04:22 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I'm opposed to abortion BUT
A couple I've known for some time really really wanted to have a child.

.....

I have a hard time supporting laws that leave critical medical decisions up to judges in an emergency situation and I have a hard time supporting laws that make doctors fear for their freedom and livelihood in critical situations.

I'm sorry I've never seen *ANYONE* say that if the mother is going to die that she should not be afforded an abortion. At the point where one/both of their lives are in danger it's triage.

This is an example a lot of pro-abortion folks bring up which is *1* exceedingly rare and *2* something everyone agrees one.

Quote:Want to ban it at viability, I'm cool with that.

The problem is that viability is a moving target. Kids can be born at 22 weeks now and are viable. 10 years ago that was 28 weeks. In five years it's 17 weeks.

"viability" is not a hard and fixed word or time.