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(01-10-2018 09:44 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that.

Why are blacks incarcerated more than 5x the rate of whites?

1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.

Incarceration is today's version of Jim Crow.

Once you start to accept these things and recognize the REAL social injustices in this country, you start to understand why a black athlete with a huge platform feels compelled to speak out.

“Drug users” and “drug offenses” are totally different.

You taking a Don Cooney class at Western?

I love how suburban white kids know all about inner city crime.

“Uuhhh I had a black friend at band camp.”

(01-10-2018 02:27 PM)brovol Wrote:  The flag is a symbol of America. That is what it represents, just as flags represent other nations. If your problem is racial profiling, or cops beating up innocent people, then protest those thing, which are illegal in America, and the vast majority of Americans condemn. If you are protesting the attitudes, dispositions, or the actions of government officials, then identify your issue, substantiate it, and speak out against it. More importantly, because America also guarantees democracy, advocate for change and vote bad people out of office.

Hoek, love you bro, but you kind of make my point when you say, "disrespecting the flag is a red herring and has absolutely nothing to do with the protests". You are right! And you are also right to point out that many other countries and governments (who are worthy of protest) require its citizens to salute the flag regardless of what it stands for, and regardless of the tyrannical rule those citizens are under. Because America is what it is, and the protections and liberties that it provides, people CAN do whatever they wish to do while the national anthem is played. That is a right they have, just like so many others which have been earned and preserved on the backs and blood of so many others; including not just the founding fathers who risked hanging to secure independence a constitutional democracy, and everything in the Bill of Rights, but also Martin Luther King, who fought so hard, and died, establishing civil rights and equality in the law. Americans now have little sense or appreciation for these concepts and take too much for granted. These are the things that today's NFL kneelers are protesting. Please compare the US to the rights that other nations guarantee their citizens.

At West Point my son, with all the other Cadets and soldiers, jumps to attention during Reveille, which occurs when the flag is raised and lowered. A bugle plays and the Cadets salute from wherever they are standing. When this happened the first time I visited my son at West Point I was surprised, but also quite choked up. Those Cadets and soldiers know that all is not perfect, but they honor and respect the principles, the values, and those that fought before them, just as they hope others will do for them one day. To kneel at the anthem and flag is akin to when the Vietnam vets were treated poorly upon arriving home from the war. People are angry at something or things that some people have done so they take it out on something or someone else. The flag, the anthem, those soldiers, and America deserves more than that.

Just because you have the right to kneel doesnt mean you should.

1. They did exactly what you’ve outlined/asked them to do. They identified the issue and spoke out against it.

2. I think it’s the opposite that many white Americans have turned the page on Civil Rights (thinking it was all taken care of in the 60’s and 70’s) and we’ve lost sight of our privilege. Things for “us” are equal and just. Not for everyone though.

3. Again, I’m sure your son honors and respects those principles and values because (I assume) as a white male, the flag represents him fairly.

You’ve been saying throughout this thread, you’ve been saying the flag represents “principles and values”... I’d like to ask you what are some examples? A lot of people would cite things like liberty, justice, and equality. Now ask yourself with the statistics I posted earlier how those principles and values are being upheld for ALL

Some veterans obviously take issue with the kneeling — I would argue the same thing I’ve been saying here that they aren’t listening to the protest. But many veterans also appreciate Andrew understand the protests because they aren’t an effective use of the first amendment (which as you correctly stated, they fought very hard to protect). In fact, it was a veteran than initially encouraged CK to kneel out of respect.

(01-10-2018 07:34 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:44 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that.

Why are blacks incarcerated more than 5x the rate of whites?

1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.

Incarceration is today's version of Jim Crow.

Once you start to accept these things and recognize the REAL social injustices in this country, you start to understand why a black athlete with a huge platform feels compelled to speak out.

“Drug users” and “drug offenses” are totally different.

You taking a Don Cooney class at Western?

I love how suburban white kids know all about inner city crime.

“Uuhhh I had a black friend at band camp.”

I don’t claim to know anything about inner city crime.

I just listen.

(01-10-2018 07:59 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 07:34 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:44 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that.

Why are blacks incarcerated more than 5x the rate of whites?

1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.

Incarceration is today's version of Jim Crow.

Once you start to accept these things and recognize the REAL social injustices in this country, you start to understand why a black athlete with a huge platform feels compelled to speak out.

“Drug users” and “drug offenses” are totally different.

You taking a Don Cooney class at Western?

I love how suburban white kids know all about inner city crime.

“Uuhhh I had a black friend at band camp.”

I don’t claim to know anything about inner city crime.

I just listen.

Sigh...

You just "listen" for the opportuninty to speak again.

(01-10-2018 09:44 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that.

Why are blacks incarcerated more than 5x the rate of whites?

1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.

Incarceration is today's version of Jim Crow.

Once you start to accept these things and recognize the REAL social injustices in this country, you start to understand why a black athlete with a huge platform feels compelled to speak out.

God I pray you didn’t graduate from WMU

(01-10-2018 07:17 AM)ChipfanII Wrote:  [quote='Hoekjeness' pid='14976487' dateline='1515553751']
[quote='BroncoPhilly' pid='14976449' dateline='1515552411']
who needs the added irritation of a bunch of overpaid performers insulting our nation's symbols?

1) A lot of Americans do. Ones who don’t have a voice.

2) They aren’t insulting our nations “symbols”... they are seeking justice for a group of people whom the flag doesn’t represent.

They are the real patriots.


If they want to do something to promote 'justice for a group of people whom the flag doesn't represent' they can each chip in a million and use it to reduce crime in Chicago by creating jobs. That might earn them a little admiration, instead of taking a knee during the playing of our national anthem and coming across like hypocritical fools. Obviously we see things differently, I'm more results oriented.

But, what the hey-I stopped watching their games anyway. No skin off my nose either way, I have other things to do with my spare time.

Hey, it's all about America. We live in a nation where a bunch of highly overpaid Pro athletes feel it's their civic duty to take a knee during the playing of the national anthem because they feel they're making a statement on the injustices in our society.

Ostensibly they're protesting the lack of opportunity for young blacks. How taking a knee during the National Anthem-something dear to the hearts of many of us-promotes more opportunity for young black boys/girls is a mystery to me, but you're not supposed to question the practicality of their protest-just praise them for their civic mindedness.

They could also protest sexual harassment of and violence against women, but being as this is the NFL-that might come off a little cheesy. No, it make that A LOT cheesy. But, we're not supposed to get into THAT serious issue with the League-just praise them for their civic mindedness.

They could also protest abuse of Opioids and hard drugs.....No, better not go there either. Yadda, yadda, yadda.....civic mindedness.

This is like the Hollywood bimbos wearing black dresses and 'Times up!' pins at the Golden Globes the other night-all this time I'm wondering how Meryl Streep got her lipstick on with her lips glued to Weinstein's azz, while Oprah directed young women at him. Didn't stop the folks at the network news channels from gushing over their superficial and hypocritical posturing, though.

If they protest one thing they have to protest everything? Odd logic.

(01-10-2018 11:06 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  If they want to do something to promote 'justice for a group of people whom the flag doesn't represent' they can each chip in a million and use it to reduce crime in Chicago by creating jobs. That might earn them a little admiration, instead of taking a knee during the playing of our national anthem and coming across like hypocritical fools. Obviously we see things differently, I'm more results oriented.

Many of them do contribute millions. You just don’t hear about it. So one could (rightfully) argue that kneeling during the anthem is just as, if not a more effective way of making progress. It grabs headlines and gets people talking.

(01-10-2018 11:17 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  Hey, it's all about America. We live in a nation where a bunch of highly overpaid Pro athletes feel it's their civic duty to take a knee during the playing of the national anthem because they feel they're making a statement on the injustices in our society.

Because many of them came from situations where they were the ones who didn’t have a voice. You’re an idiot if you think they were all born spoiled millionaires.

I really don’t know why this is so hard to grasp. But again, this is the country that elected Trump. So I guess it all makes sense sadly.

(01-11-2018 06:19 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 11:17 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  Hey, it's all about America. We live in a nation where a bunch of highly overpaid Pro athletes feel it's their civic duty to take a knee during the playing of the national anthem because they feel they're making a statement on the injustices in our society.

Because many of them came from situations where they were the ones who didn’t have a voice. You’re an idiot if you think they were all born spoiled millionaires.

I really don’t know why this is so hard to grasp. But again, this is the country that elected Trump. So I guess it all makes sense sadly.

I can’t speak for your circumstance, but my 403 and stock portfolio is blowing up. Our pension fund is in great shape. GDP 3.5%, never reached 3 under the previous administration. Lowest unemployment in 17 years. ISIS Gone. Waste Management gave 34,000 employees $2000 bonuses yesterday. My son’s business is having its best year ever. Doubled bonuses to his hygienists. My house is appreciating 6.5%. The idea that “deplorable morons” elected him is exactly why Hillary lost. I know a host of highly educated and successful people who quietly voted for policies that he proposed.

To quote Bill Clinton, “It the economy Stupid.” If you want to dwell on Tweets, Presidential decorum, or pristine character, good luck finding that candidate.

(01-11-2018 06:19 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 11:17 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  Hey, it's all about America. We live in a nation where a bunch of highly overpaid Pro athletes feel it's their civic duty to take a knee during the playing of the national anthem because they feel they're making a statement on the injustices in our society.

Because many of them came from situations where they were the ones who didn’t have a voice. You’re an idiot if you think they were all born spoiled millionaires.

I really don’t know why this is so hard to grasp. But again, this is the country that elected Trump. So I guess it all makes sense sadly.

It is hard for you to grasp because you are only looking at the cause you passionately (and rightfully) support, not the vehicle. If the National Anthem was being used to protest a cause you do not support, you would be vehemently against that protest. You can't see beyond the cause. Myself, and others, are against disgracing the National Anthem for ANY cause, regardless of the merits of that cause. There are other, more effective, vehicles and options as a previous poster has pointed out.

Also, educate yourself on the 2016 election. You've been drinking too much partisan Koolaid and are accepting things blindly. Had the Democrats nominated anybody other than Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump would have lost in a landslide and not be an issue now.

Exit polls showed many of the folks who voted Trump were really voting against Clinton. They didn't like Trump any more than you do. Any many Democrat voters couldn't stomach Clinton and just did not vote (Wayne County voters for example, and many principled Sanders supporters).

Add the disturbing comments that have come out the last 2-3 months from the former Democrat Party chair (Hillary's nomination was unethically rigged, and incompetently ran, with no message for the working/middle class), and it is easy to understand how a moron like Donald Trump actually won the general election. The Dems gave it to him by blindly nominating a bigger, more disturbing, moron - Hillary Clinton!

Had a Joe Biden been nominated....

That said, I am done with this thread. God Bless America! Go Broncos! And bless you, Hoekjeness for your passion.

(01-11-2018 08:38 AM)GullLake Wrote:  It is hard for you to grasp because you are only looking at the cause you passionately (and rightfully) support, not the vehicle. If the National Anthem was being used to protest a cause you do not support, you would be vehemently against that protest. You can't see beyond the cause. Myself, and others, are against disgracing the National Anthem for ANY cause, regardless of the merits of that cause. There are other, more effective, vehicles and options as a previous poster has pointed out.

I disagree. I think it's actually the perfect vehicle because the flag doesn't represent the America these people live in. The flag doesn't uphold its principles and values equally across all of its people.

(01-10-2018 07:34 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:44 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that.

Why are blacks incarcerated more than 5x the rate of whites?

1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.

Incarceration is today's version of Jim Crow.

Once you start to accept these things and recognize the REAL social injustices in this country, you start to understand why a black athlete with a huge platform feels compelled to speak out.

“Drug users” and “drug offenses” are totally different.

You taking a Don Cooney class at Western?

I love how suburban white kids know all about inner city crime.

“Uuhhh I had a black friend at band camp.”

+1 for Don Cooney reference! Now that's some nostalgia right there!

Hoek, do you believe that some white are never the victims of crimes committed by minority perpetrators? I assume your answer would be that you know there are plenty of situations where crimes or other bad things are done by black people to white people. Maybe in some cases the white victims were targeted because they were white, and some times they were just targeted. Would you "get it", and understand the "cause" if white athletes or actors protested or raised a white gloved fist during the national anthem as a protest against black targeting of white people, or would you say, "that's ridiculous, blacks targeting whites is not something that is sanctioned by the US, and in fact there are plenty of laws in this country which make that illegal, and it makes no sense insulting the symbols of America for the behavior of some idiots"? There will always be bad people. People will judge others based on whatever criteria they want to use; and that is the way it should be.

Racists want to separate and distinguish people based on race. Hoek, when you tell me or others that we dont know what it is like being black, you assume that your stereotypes of people are accurate, including your assumption that black people and white people necessarily experience life on different levels, when in fact there are poor people who are raised and live in difficult situations who are white, black, Hispanic, Asian, and everything else, just as the upper and middle classes have members of all races. Sometimes a person's station in life is caused by his/her own doings, based on things like character, work ethic, willingness to invest and take chances, and sometimes it is good or bad luck/circumstances, like being raised by lousy parents, being blessed with a great mind, or being physically strong or talented, being handicapped physically or mentally. These situations happen to people of all races. But Hoek, in your discussion you, like many others who discuss these issues, tend to separate and distinguish people by race; which is exactly what we need to eliminate. All people should be treated equal in the law, and the laws of the US do that. If they didnt then I would understand protest against America. If you protest is against individuals who are racist, then go ahead and say how much you dont like them. But, unless you want a country where people are not allowed to have their own beliefs, or express those beliefs, you shouldn't have an issue with America.

7,881 Black homicides in 2016
230 were fatal shootings by police.
The bulk of the police fatal shootings were described by the Washington Post as "armed and dangerous".
16 were classified as unarmed.
Crime is racial. White crime is mainly White on White. Black crime is mainly Black on Black.
If Black Lives Matter then where should the focus truly be?

(01-11-2018 09:46 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 08:38 AM)GullLake Wrote:  It is hard for you to grasp because you are only looking at the cause you passionately (and rightfully) support, not the vehicle. If the National Anthem was being used to protest a cause you do not support, you would be vehemently against that protest. You can't see beyond the cause. Myself, and others, are against disgracing the National Anthem for ANY cause, regardless of the merits of that cause. There are other, more effective, vehicles and options as a previous poster has pointed out.

I disagree. I think it's actually the perfect vehicle because the flag doesn't represent the America these people live in. The flag doesn't uphold its principles and values equally across all of its people.

America is an institution made up of laws. What do you think needs to change about "America" for things to be corrected? Should we become non-democratic? Eliminate the laws we have? Which laws? Should we mandate a specific set of beliefs which everyone in the country must have, so that those who think differently go to prison? Should we eliminate the Constitution, and all of the rights guaranteed to individuals? Tell me what it is that makes America itself worthy of protest? Dont say better elected officials though, because they were elected by the people; so if they are the issue then just say you would rather not have democratically elected officials, and then suggest the "better" system you propose.

What I think is that people who kneel for the anthem don't understand that their b!tch is really with certain individuals who have, in most cases, committed wrongful and illegal acts, which happens in a free society, and that they are too uninformed to realize that they should actually be expressing tremendous gratitude at being blessed to live in America and benefit from its Constitution, laws, system of democracy and free enterprise, justice system, and structure, even considering the fact that there are a lot of idiots who live here, and a disproportionate amount of those idiots in congress and the White House, because people in this country, unfortunately, have become too lazy and dependent on TV personalities to identify what is important in an election rather than learning and determining it for themselves.

(01-11-2018 11:24 AM)brovol Wrote:  What do you think needs to change about "America" for things to be corrected?

Less greed and more empathy.

There are too many Award Shows.

We don't have to watch them.

I don't like listening to actors-actresses make political-social statements when I do.

I don't like seeing athletes not standing for National Anthem.

But that doesn't mean I don't respect their right to do so.

(01-11-2018 01:57 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 11:24 AM)brovol Wrote:  What do you think needs to change about "America" for things to be corrected?

Less greed and more empathy.

Well put your money where your mouth is. Saying you care more makes you feel like a SJW, but it doesn’t do **** for people in need. I’m sure you’d love to make more money, why penalize the success of others, does that help anyone, or do you just feel better knowing your rich neighbor got hit in the wallet.