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(12-10-2017 01:19 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Do you watch the games or the stat sheet?

Every pass he makes guys have to pirouette to catch. It’s awful.

He’s not a PG and never will be.

yep.

Glad I was drinking bourbon with friends and only half way paying attention to this game. I never thought I’d reach a point where I barely cared about UC basketball playing a top 25 Florida team but I can hardly take Mick ball anymore. It’s embarassing to watch with fans of other teams.

Cincinnati sports may have finally broken me.

I’m not stressed. Tell ya what. End of the season I’ll try not to spike the ball if I’m right. I will be. Guard play dooms this team to bubble-ville in early December.

You might be another one that swallowed the hook that he was the best player in practice. Bearcat fans are a gullible lot.

(12-10-2017 01:19 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Do you watch the games or the stat sheet?

Every pass he makes guys have to pirouette to catch. It’s awful.

He’s not a PG and never will be.

Do you watch the games? I have serious doubts that u actually do. You are right, we need more Jennifer, and cowbell.

(12-10-2017 01:31 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I’m not stressed. Tell ya what. End of the season I’ll try not to spike the ball if I’m right. I will be. Guard play dooms this team to bubble-ville in early December.

You might be another one that swallowed the hook that he was the best player in practice. Bearcat fans are a gullible lot.

Another hot take. Thanks. Needed that.

(12-10-2017 12:46 AM)HoopsJunky Wrote:  

(12-10-2017 12:04 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  

(12-09-2017 11:32 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  UC will be fine against middlin teams.

The guards on this team are not good enough. Broome can’t defend or pass and Cumberland and Evans are too slow. Other teams have seen the tape.

Troy and Johnson are sorely missed.

Disagree. Broome can create for himself and others. Jennifer is not a threat to do either. Broome defends just fine, comparatively. I would rather have him out there with his attacking mentality than any else.. Evans and Cumberland need to keep attacking the rim. Slow? LMAO. In what? The slow down half court look for Mick Offense? Give me a break.

I don’t get all the Cane hate on here

he goes 6-8 while Jenifer in 23 minutes has
0 points and only 1 assist

I don’t either. They just need to let Broome play. That is their only hope of doing anything this year. These talentless grinders are a joke and simply don’t work if you ever want to make a run when it matters. Jenifer needs to sit 95% of the game. He doesn’t have the skills.

(12-10-2017 01:19 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Do you watch the games or the stat sheet?

Every pass he makes guys have to pirouette to catch. It’s awful.

He’s not a PG and never will be.

this

I don't think it will get any better with Mick. This isn't a knock Mick post. He focus is playing hard, playing defense, and things like deflections. Great. It takes you so far. He is either unable or unwilling to change the offense and as long as we run the offense we run with the type of players he recruits, this is what we have: a decent NCAA squad (some years better some years worse) but we are not going to be a national threat with things the way they are. Sad really.

Its not the AAC (XU passed us while playing in the A10), its not that we couldn't 'do better' (XU hired coaches that got it done, while playing in the A10). Its just what is acceptable or not. I assume UC is happy with having an occasional ranked team that makes the NCAA most years and wins a game or so. The conference is just bad enough that Micks' teams will always be near the top, giving the illusion of success.

I was hoping this year would be different but clearly its the same offense with the same results. And sadly, the defense isn't as good as in the past so this team is a 7-10 seed at best and probably 1 and done at most.

At this point we are relegated to looking forward to not sucking as bad in football next year.

Its hard to be a UC fan sometimes.

(12-09-2017 10:41 PM)TubaCat Wrote:  

(12-09-2017 10:31 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-09-2017 10:27 PM)TubaCat Wrote:  "Lay people... all they know is whether you won or lost."

Well, yeah. I don't disagree with that assessment, but I don't think those "lay people" are wrong in judging a team by its wins and losses.

"Winning makes you soft. Winning makes you arrogant. Winning makes your players content."

Good thing we lost, then. College basketball is a game of 4D chess here, fellas.

"But I don't look at winning and losing as much as, you know, that... that's not what I look at."

I just... wow.

WTF is that real

Yes, verbatim. Those quotes are at 1:54, 2:07, and 2:45.

I told you guys this is his belief, look at my comments a few pages back before the press conference. The reason I knew he saw things this way is because he has said this before. He doesn't look at wins and losses supposedly.

I said one other time, Mick would rather lose pretty vs winning ugly. That's a problem.

Bob Huggins hated to lose. He hated losing more than he liked winning. Mick is neither. He wants to see execution and hard play, wins/losses are side notes.

(12-10-2017 01:06 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(12-10-2017 12:04 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  

(12-09-2017 11:32 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  UC will be fine against middlin teams.

The guards on this team are not good enough. Broome can’t defend or pass and Cumberland and Evans are too slow. Other teams have seen the tape.

Troy and Johnson are sorely missed.

Disagree. Broome can create for himself and others. Jennifer is not a threat to do either. Broome defends just fine, comparatively. I would rather have him out there with his attacking mentality than any else.. Evans and Cumberland need to keep attacking the rim. Slow? LMAO. In what? The slow down half court look for Mick Offense? Give me a break.

He can’t defend or pass. I never said anything about clearing out and letting him go to the rim. He does that well. He’s an open gym guy.

The guards on this team are a liability against good squads.

yup...a disciplined team that plays smart with good guard play is going to destroy us. See Wichita State...

Same story as every year, against teams with bad offense our defense is good enough to make us look good. Against teams with good offense, our D will keep us in the game if we are lucky and we will lose a close one due to lack of offense. Or our D won't be enough and we get blown out.

The most dissapointing thing about this year is the lack of player improvement. I figured Troy would be a loss (KJ not so much), but in exchange everyone else gets another year to develop. But if anything, most of them have stayed the same or even regressed.

Cumberland and Evans play scared, looking over at Cronin, happier to pass the ball than to initiate the offense. I don't know if it is overcoaching, bad offensive scheme or something else. The two players who I thought would lead this team generally do their best to pass the buck. As freshmen they were in attack mode, yes they made mistakes, but they made things happen too. Now they seem to be so scared of messing up that they choose not to do anything.

Clark has added a 3 point shot, but that is about it. Clark and Washington are both weak with the ball near the basket. They don't have a good post up game and (especially Washington) make bad decisions when they do have the ball near the basket. Bad decision making and wings who aren't intested in creating means doubling the ball anytime it gets to the post result in either a bad shot or a turnover far too often.

Jennifer would be a fine PG as a distributer (he is not and won't ever be a scorer). But there is no one to give the ball to. Broome and Washington are the only players we have who consistantly seem like they are interested in scoring.

(12-09-2017 10:27 PM)TubaCat Wrote:  "Lay people... all they know is whether you won or lost."

Those lay people buy the tickets that pay your salary.
He should be mindful to not to talk down to the people paying the freight.

Mick Cronin maybe our basketball version of Rick Minter.

Minter brought the program back to respectability and his kids didn't get in trouble...but he couldn't get the team over the hump.

Sounds familiar?

I’ve come up with a term that I rather enjoy.

Bearcastrated. That’s what Mick does to very talented guys like Evans, Broome, Cumberland and Washington. At this point I’m convinced that Mick is an overachieving high school coach. He is still stuck in the mindset that he must control every little thing that happens on the court, like most high school coaches. However at the college level what great coaches do is put heir guys in the best position to succeed and then let them play, other than some out of bounds plays and end of clock situations when they want a very specific thing to happen. You don’t recruit a guy like Broome and then slap some reins on him and do your best to break him. That’s what guys like Troy and JJ are for. When players have the type of scoring talent that Broome has you let them play and do your teaching at practice, not in games. Bearcastration. For example guys like Evans and Cumberland come into UC with an advanced ability to score the basketball, they look great and free flowing as freshmen then Mick starts his Bearcastration. He does the exact opposite of what you want very talented athletes to do, he gets them to think instead of letting them rely on their already very good offensive instincts. Kyle Washington is in the same boat, he looks like a shell of himself out there. Cumberland plays with the emotion of a beat dog too. Beatcastration. This is where UC is and I doubt Mick will/should be removed any time soon. But he needs to do some serious self scouting and figure out for himself why his offenses, despite having talent, look so helpless most of the time. I doubt he will though, change is hard and it is especially hard for people who already view themselves as very successful.

To be clear I have and will continue to feel that there should be a statue of Mick at 5/3 arena because he helped the program survive and even thrive a free a nuclear winter. However, I doubt he ever has the success that were all hoping for.

After a bit of thought, the term should be Bearcatstration.

After every loss the board has a meltdown. The coaching is going have to earn their money and find out how to put the pieces in place. I keep going back to the lack of game action over the last couple weeks as huge negative for this team. Even if the they don't figure things out this team will win 25 games and will be in the NCAA tournament with a chance to advance to the Sweet 16 or better.

Beat Miss State on Tuesday and get the ball rolling. One major issue with this staff has always been early season scheduling and adjusting the teams actual talent to a winning style of play. Playing fast isn't the answer for this team. UC had open looks yesterday and didn't make them.

This is a response to many who responded to me, but mostly my good pal Jarr.

I've consistently made the point that UC should not be scared to move on from Mick Cronin. UC is a very desirable job, with great history that absolutely has the ability to get back to what Huggs had built from 1992-2002.

2 games have not changed my mind that this is Mick Cronin's best team and is a top 10-15 caliber team that has a real shot at the final four. I haven't seen anything in the 2 games we watched that isn't correctable. Hell, most of the things I think will get corrected soon.

I've already laid out my thoughts on the Xavier game pretty extensively so lets talk to this game. UC lost this game in a 10-12 minute stretch in the first half where it turned the ball over like 10 times resulting in points for Florida and UC not scoring. You cannot play sloppy basketball like that and expect to win. The good news is Mick Cronin coached teams have consistently been among the best in the country at protecting the basketball. I don't believe that stretch of basketball is going to be reflective of how UC plays most of the year.

I will say that if Cumberland continues to play like he has the last few weeks UC's ceiling is severely limited. UC needs Cumberland to make outside shots, needs him to get to the basket and needs him protect the basketball. If he plays like he is capable yesterday, UC wins. I like Cumberland. I thought he made plays in big games all season last year and I'm not going to overreact to a bit of a slump early in his sophomore year.

The other big area of concern yesterday is UC had only 4 assists. The ball just stopped moving and players tried to play too much one on one. This is another area where UC excelled all last season, so I have to believe its an anomaly. UC needs to share the ball better and finish when the offense creates a good look (missed too many open threes and layups yesterday). I think they'll fix this issue as well.

I guess my overarching point is this is a long season. Teams lose basketball games and have issues sometimes. Duke went to Boston College and got beat yesterday. That Florida team is going to be a top 15-20 team at the end of the year... it lost to Loyola and Florida State this week. Xavier got trucked by an Arizona State team that is very improved but probably will be a bubble type team at season's end. I'm not going to overreact to 2 games and I ultimately think this team has the players to be a protected seed. If they want a protected seed these next two games are absolutely essential so it's time to respond. Luckily UC's league schedule will give them more opportunities for top 50/100 wins than last year.

I've been encouraged by how Broome has seemed to come on the last couple of games. He's a really good scorer. The ball doesn't move enough when he's a PG which is why I still like him coming off the bench, but I think he's a better option at the end of games than Jennifer and should play more minutes than Jennifer. I'd like to see the plus/minus but I thought he and Jennifer on the floor together was actually one of UC's better lineups yesterday (probably because of how Cumberland struggled). Gary is Gary and is going to be fine. The big area where we haven't gotten nearly enough is Kyle Washington at center. When he scores effectively and doesn't turn it over UC is top 5-10 good, but that doesn't happen often enough. That will likely be a source of some inconsistency all year. If Cumberland and Broome area playing well UC should be fine overcoming that issue... when one or both are not they can struggle.

This season as a whole is a big put up or shut up season for Mick Cronin and what he can achieve at UC, but these 2 games are 2 games in a long season and I have seen plenty so far to make me think this team still has what it takes to be a second weekend NCAA team and possibly beyond.

(12-10-2017 08:54 AM)BeerCat Wrote:  Beatcastration. This is where UC is and I doubt Mick will/should be removed any time soon.

To be clear I have and will continue to feel that there should be a statue of Mick at 5/3 arena because he helped the program survive and even thrive a free a nuclear winter.

This is the mindset that I don't understand.

On the first point, why should his position not be challenged if you are admitting that he takes talented players and sucks the life and talent out of them.

On the second point, it took him 5 years to get to the tournament. And really hasn't tamen us anywhere beyond that since. All while being in a power conference while coaching a historically good Basketball school. Let's just rename the school after him too while we are at it.

(12-10-2017 08:59 AM)bearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  After every loss the board has a meltdown. The coaching is going have to earn their money and find out how to put the pieces in place. I keep going back to the lack of game action over the last couple weeks as huge negative for this team. Even if the they don't figure things out this team will win 25 games and will be in the NCAA tournament with a chance to advance to the Sweet 16 or better.

Beat Miss State on Tuesday and get the ball rolling. One major issue with this staff has always been early season scheduling and adjusting the teams actual talent to a winning style of play. Playing fast isn't the answer for this team. UC had open looks yesterday and didn't make them.

This is a good point and one of my big pet peeves with the scheduling UC consistently does. Watch Xavier go out and schedule (or what UC did under Huggins). Those games against sub 250 RPI teams do nothing for you. They hurt your seed in March, but more than that they don't really let you find out what you need to be to be most successful because you can do anything you want against them. Good buy games against teams 100-200 in RPI will actually challenge you. Those teams will take away certain things or make them more difficult. They are games you'll win but you really do find out more about what you should look like against your best competition. UC fails year after year with their buy games.

Barring scandal, Mick had a job for life here.

1/3 of the fan base thinks he is a HOF coach
1/3 thinks we can’t get anyone better
1/3 wants to move on to someone else

(12-10-2017 09:00 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  This is a response to many who responded to me, but mostly my good pal Jarr.

I've consistently made the point that UC should not be scared to move on from Mick Cronin. UC is a very desirable job, with great history that absolutely has the ability to get back to what Huggs had built from 1992-2002.

2 games have not changed my mind that this is Mick Cronin's best team and is a top 10-15 caliber team that has a real shot at the final four. I haven't seen anything in the 2 games we watched that isn't correctable. Hell, most of the things I think will get corrected soon.

I've already laid out my thoughts on the Xavier game pretty extensively so lets talk to this game. UC lost this game in a 10-12 minute stretch in the first half where it turned the ball over like 10 times resulting in points for Florida and UC not scoring. You cannot play sloppy basketball like that and expect to win. The good news is Mick Cronin coached teams have consistently been among the best in the country at protecting the basketball. I don't believe that stretch of basketball is going to be reflective of how UC plays most of the year.

I will say that if Cumberland continues to play like he has the last few weeks UC's ceiling is severely limited. UC needs Cumberland to make outside shots, needs him to get to the basket and needs him protect the basketball. If he plays like he is capable yesterday, UC wins. I like Cumberland. I thought he made plays in big games all season last year and I'm not going to overreact to a bit of a slump early in his sophomore year.

The other big area of concern yesterday is UC had only 4 assists. The ball just stopped moving and players tried to play too much one on one. This is another area where UC excelled all last season, so I have to believe its an anomaly. UC needs to share the ball better and finish when the offense creates a good look (missed too many open threes and layups yesterday). I think they'll fix this issue as well.

I guess my overarching point is this is a long season. Teams lose basketball games and have issues sometimes. Duke went to Boston College and got beat yesterday. That Florida team is going to be a top 15-20 team at the end of the year... it lost to Loyola and Florida State this week. Xavier got trucked by an Arizona State team that is very improved but probably will be a bubble type team at season's end. I'm not going to overreact to 2 games and I ultimately think this team has the players to be a protected seed. If they want a protected seed these next two games are absolutely essential so it's time to respond. Luckily UC's league schedule will give them more opportunities for top 50/100 wins than last year.

I've been encouraged by how Broome has seemed to come on the last couple of games. He's a really good scorer. The ball doesn't move enough when he's a PG which is why I still like him coming off the bench, but I think he's a better option at the end of games than Jennifer and should play more minutes than Jennifer. I'd like to see the plus/minus but I thought he and Jennifer on the floor together was actually one of UC's better lineups yesterday (probably because of how Cumberland struggled). Gary is Gary and is going to be fine. The big area where we haven't gotten nearly enough is Kyle Washington at center. When he scores effectively and doesn't turn it over UC is top 5-10 good, but that doesn't happen often enough. That will likely be a source of some inconsistency all year. If Cumberland and Broome area playing well UC should be fine overcoming that issue... when one or both are not they can struggle.

This season as a whole is a big put up or shut up season for Mick Cronin and what he can achieve at UC, but these 2 games are 2 games in a long season and I have seen plenty so far to make me think this team still has what it takes to be a second weekend NCAA team and possibly beyond.

Good well thought out analysis Mark! At this point all we can do is step back and let this team play out the season and see where they end up. I think most fans are getting tired of the same excuses year after year. I think I'm going to try a little more fair weather approach as I've taken to some of the other teams I follow, and stop worrying about it so much. It is what it is st this point.