Why is it that Pitt seems to have a hard time recruiting their own state? I noticed on 247 that you guys are only really in the running for one of the top 10 players in the state. What is the problem and is this normal? I know for USC and Clemson keeping guys in their home state is a big priority to a great recruiting class. Clemson has built their name so they are starting to branch out more. Just wondering from fans that know the region.

Many programs like Michigan, ND, etc...fish extensively in Pennsylvania waters.

ND, for instance, has landed a number of recruits there, historically and currently.

Penn State obviously is a big factor in my home state as well.

(07-18-2017 06:12 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Many programs like Michigan, ND, etc...fish extensively in Pennsylvania waters.

ND, for instance, has landed a number of recruits there, historically and currently.

Penn State obviously is a big factor in my home state as well.

I get that but SC is constantly getting picked apart. Do the athletes there want to get out of the state or just not have great ties to Pitt? I was just surprised only one of the top ten players was looking at Pitt as a contender considering it's one of the main state schools.

Over the past five years, 33 players from Pennsylvania were ranked in the Top 300 in their class by ESPN. Roughly half stayed home: Penn State got 10, Pitt 6 and Temple 1.

No other school signed more than 2 of these players during that period. Schools with 2 signees were: Florida State, Georgia, Michigan State, Notre Dame and South Carolina.

Schools that inked 1 player were: Alabama, Florida, Michigan, USC, Vanderbilt and West Virginia.

The days when the top football powers recruit mostly in their home territory are long gone, I'm afraid. Everybody goes after the big fish, no matter what lake they swim in.

There are two Pennsylvania recruits from this year's ND recruiting class of twelve commitments, including four star QB Phil Jurkovec:

https://notredame.rivals.com/commitments/football/2018

Last year's recruiting class of 21 signees included three guys from the Pittsburgh area:

https://notredame.rivals.com/commitments/football/2017

ND has made an increased emphasis on Pa. recruiting the past couple of years.

As someone who has closely followed this issue for a long time, I think some things are being conflated here.

It is definitely a challenge to have to recruit up against Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan and Notre Dame as Pitt is often forced to do.

Also, there are basically two Pennsylvania's from a recruiting standpoint: the WPIAL (Pittsburgh area) and the rest of the state. That rankles other Pennsylvanians to hear that but it's clearly true. Most of the best players to have ever come out of Pennsylvania have come out of the Pittsburgh area.

From a non-football perspective, there are essentially three Pennsylvanias: Philadelphia area, Pittsburgh area and the rest of the state. That too factors into all of this.

Pitt traditionally does very well in the WPIAL. That is how it has been able to hold its head above the water when recruiting went into the tank elsewhere. However, Pitt does not do very well in the other parts of the state where Penn State is king. Occasionally, we pull a kid like Shady McCoy out of Harrisburg – which is right in the heart of Penn State country – but that is not terribly common.

However, you have to put this into context, an area where Pitt has clearly improved in the last several years is Eastern Ohio. Our coach, Pat Narduzzi is from Youngstown. That's basically a suburb of Pittsburgh. That too is really important to understand.

The truth is Pittsburgh area football has declined in recent years. There's an ebb and flow and I expect it to get better. However, I think there's a real case to be made that it's not as important to be strong even in western Pennsylvania as it was 20-25 years ago.

I think for Pitt to reach its full potential it needs to lock down the WPIAL as much as possible. Pitt has never "owned" the WPIAL. If you go all the way back to the 20s and 30s you will find that other schools have always been a factor here. Notre Dame has a big presence here because of the large Catholic population. Penn State is the big state school here. Ohio State is just 2 1/2 hours down the road from Pittsburgh. Michigan is a great school it's just a few hours further. West Virginia is an hour south. It's a struggle and there are not many other places that are located in such a brutally competitive environment.

That's why I like them being more mobile in their approach. They do need to do better in the WPIAL than they have in the last two or three years. However, they also need to be strong in Ohio and in New Jersey – two areas where they've traditionally recruited very well. Finally, they have to make sure that they are very strong in Georgia and especially Florida. They have stolen a ton of great players out of the Sunshine State over the years and they need to continue to do that to be successful.

BTW, I'm not as familiar with them and their plight but I am guessing that Georgia Tech faces many of the same issues in talent-rich Atlanta.

I think Georgia Tech and Pitt are absolute doppelgängers in many, many senses. I think the schools are of a similar quality, they are both located in urban areas (major disadvantage), and they are each located in the heart of very talented areas – Atlanta moreso than Pittsburgh.

I think GT and Pitt share a lot of the same challenges but also a lot of the same opportunities.

(07-18-2017 04:04 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  BTW, I'm not as familiar with them and their plight but I am guessing that Georgia Tech faces many of the same issues in talent-rich Atlanta.

I think Georgia Tech and Pitt are absolute doppelgängers in many, many senses. I think the schools are of a similar quality, they are both located in urban areas (major disadvantage), and they are each located in the heart of very talented areas – Atlanta moreso than Pittsburgh.

I think GT and Pitt share a lot of the same challenges but also a lot of the same opportunities.

The state of Georgia is one of the most talent rich in the entire country. Unfortunately, Georgia Tech hasn't been able to capitalize on that. Of the 156 ESPN300 recruits over the last five years, 87% went to either an SEC or an ACC school. Georgia Tech signed one of them.

The ACC has clearly played second fiddle here, with 16% of these players to the SEC's 71%.

(07-18-2017 04:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 04:04 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  BTW, I'm not as familiar with them and their plight but I am guessing that Georgia Tech faces many of the same issues in talent-rich Atlanta.

I think Georgia Tech and Pitt are absolute doppelgängers in many, many senses. I think the schools are of a similar quality, they are both located in urban areas (major disadvantage), and they are each located in the heart of very talented areas – Atlanta moreso than Pittsburgh.

I think GT and Pitt share a lot of the same challenges but also a lot of the same opportunities.

The state of Georgia is one of the most talent rich in the entire country. Unfortunately, Georgia Tech hasn't been able to capitalize on that. Of the 156 ESPN300 recruits over the last five years, 87% went to either an SEC or an ACC school. Georgia Tech signed one of them.

The ACC has clearly played second fiddle here, with 16% of these players to the SEC's 71%.

I've seen a number of academic rankings of the P-5 that put GT as the most difficult school out of the 65. I'll check to see if I can find that again. I suspect that a fully 2/3 of Georgia High School football players can not get past the GT admissions office.

(07-18-2017 04:45 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 04:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 04:04 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  BTW, I'm not as familiar with them and their plight but I am guessing that Georgia Tech faces many of the same issues in talent-rich Atlanta.

I think Georgia Tech and Pitt are absolute doppelgängers in many, many senses. I think the schools are of a similar quality, they are both located in urban areas (major disadvantage), and they are each located in the heart of very talented areas – Atlanta moreso than Pittsburgh.

I think GT and Pitt share a lot of the same challenges but also a lot of the same opportunities.

The state of Georgia is one of the most talent rich in the entire country. Unfortunately, Georgia Tech hasn't been able to capitalize on that. Of the 156 ESPN300 recruits over the last five years, 87% went to either an SEC or an ACC school. Georgia Tech signed one of them.

The ACC has clearly played second fiddle here, with 16% of these players to the SEC's 71%.

I've seen a number of academic rankings of the P-5 that put GT as the most difficult school out of the 65. I'll check to see if I can find that again. I suspect that a fully 2/3 of Georgia High School football players can not get past the GT admissions office.

Found it http://universitybenchmarks.com/Power5_U...kings.html

Remember to not us US News for stuff like this as US News looks only at inputs not product or outputs.

According to the site this is the pecking order of difficulty at the schools playing p-5 football:

1. GT
2. Vandy
3. NW
4. Duke
5. Cal
6. Stanford
7. Michigan
8. USC
9. ND
10. UVa
11. MD
12. Ill
13. Miami
14. Minn
15. UCLA
16. UNC
17. Ohio State
18. Wisky
19. Purdue
20. BC
21. Wake Forest
22. Texas
23. NC State
24. Pitt
25. Rutgers

28. Clemson
29. FSU
41. VT
51. Louisville
64. Syracuse

If you notice there is not a lot of football success before you get to Ohio State at 17. There is some, and there is a lot of history for some, but it suggests possibly the inability to hide dumb football players these days.

GT is something like 95% STEM, and 2/3rd Engineering. The bigger schools have an advantage hiding morons, so GT small size makes it difficult.

None of this means that school X might not find a place to stash a moron, but these rankings might explain some of the reasons why you have had academically related scandals.

Notice there is not one SEC school in the top 25 and Texas is the only representative of the B12 in the top 25.

Clemson and FSU in particular deserve praise for the quality of their football viewed against their academic rigor in the top half of the P-5.

For GT to change it's unique situation, it has to have more cross majors with Emory - but that's just not going to happen.

(07-18-2017 05:27 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 04:45 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 04:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 04:04 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  BTW, I'm not as familiar with them and their plight but I am guessing that Georgia Tech faces many of the same issues in talent-rich Atlanta.

I think Georgia Tech and Pitt are absolute doppelgängers in many, many senses. I think the schools are of a similar quality, they are both located in urban areas (major disadvantage), and they are each located in the heart of very talented areas – Atlanta moreso than Pittsburgh.

I think GT and Pitt share a lot of the same challenges but also a lot of the same opportunities.

The state of Georgia is one of the most talent rich in the entire country. Unfortunately, Georgia Tech hasn't been able to capitalize on that. Of the 156 ESPN300 recruits over the last five years, 87% went to either an SEC or an ACC school. Georgia Tech signed one of them.

The ACC has clearly played second fiddle here, with 16% of these players to the SEC's 71%.

I've seen a number of academic rankings of the P-5 that put GT as the most difficult school out of the 65. I'll check to see if I can find that again. I suspect that a fully 2/3 of Georgia High School football players can not get past the GT admissions office.

Found it http://universitybenchmarks.com/Power5_U...kings.html

Remember to not us US News for stuff like this as US News looks only at inputs not product or outputs.

According to the site this is the pecking order of difficulty at the schools playing p-5 football:

1. GT
2. Vandy
3. NW
4. Duke
5. Cal
6. Stanford
7. Michigan
8. USC
9. ND
10. UVa
11. MD
12. Ill
13. Miami
14. Minn
15. UCLA
16. UNC
17. Ohio State
18. Wisky
19. Purdue
20. BC
21. Wake Forest
22. Texas
23. NC State
24. Pitt
25. Rutgers

28. Clemson
29. FSU
41. VT
51. Louisville
64. Syracuse

If you notice there is not a lot of football success before you get to Ohio State at 17. There is some, and there is a lot of history for some, but it suggests possibly the inability to hide dumb football players these days.

GT is something like 95% STEM, and 2/3rd Engineering. The bigger schools have an advantage hiding morons, so GT small size makes it difficult.

None of this means that school X might not find a place to stash a moron, but these rankings might explain some of the reasons why you have had academically related scandals.

Notice there is not one SEC school in the top 25 and Texas is the only representative of the B12 in the top 25.

Clemson and FSU in particular deserve praise for the quality of their football viewed against their academic rigor in the top half of the P-5.

For GT to change it's unique situation, it has to have more cross majors with Emory - but that's just not going to happen.

Vandy must have moved out of the SEC.

Vandy is part of the SEC?

You learn something new every day.

(07-18-2017 06:55 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Vandy is part of the SEC?

You learn something new every day.

I think they try to keep that on the QT.

(07-18-2017 05:27 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  http://universitybenchmarks.com/Power5_U...kings.html

1. GT
4. Duke
10. UVa
13. Miami
16. UNC
20. BC
21. Wake Forest
23. NC State
24. Pitt

28. Clemson
29. FSU
41. VT
51. Louisville
64. Syracuse

So the top 25 list that the ACC dominates with 9 schools ranked and 2 more in the top 30 is a list of how difficult it is to get into for P5 schools?

(07-18-2017 10:06 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 05:27 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  http://universitybenchmarks.com/Power5_U...kings.html

1. GT
4. Duke
10. UVa
13. Miami
16. UNC
20. BC
21. Wake Forest
23. NC State
24. Pitt

28. Clemson
29. FSU
41. VT
51. Louisville
64. Syracuse

So the top 25 list that the ACC dominates with 9 schools ranked and 2 more in the top 30 is a list of how difficult it is to get into for P5 schools?

Actually, after checking the link the rankings of ACC schools are as follows:

1 Georgia Institute of Technology
5 Duke University
13 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
14 University of Virginia
17 University of Notre Dame
22 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
24 Boston College

26 University of Miami
27 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
30 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

31 Wake Forest University
33 Florida State University
37 Clemson University

55 Syracuse University

64 University of Louisville

GT's problems stem from the following, in order of damage done:

1) An AD who has NO CLUE on marketing, the academic culture, the school, or the fanbase. (Resolved!)
1b) Bad contracts from previous bad ADs (Chan Gailey from Dave Braine (PAID), Paul Hewitt from Dave Braine (STILL BEING PAID), Brian Gregory from Mike Bobinski (STILL BEING PAID)).
1c) Bad stadium debt from a terribly rushed and slapdash expansion and renovation of the stadium (from Dave Braine)
1d) An inexplicable dropping of the ball of the Alexander-Tharpe Fund as the primary vehicle for outside funding from fans above and beyond even season tickets (Party shot! Everybody is in on this one: Dave Braine, Dan Radakovich, Mike Bobinski)
1e) An inexplicable cutting back to bare minimum staffing and funding for assistants and recruiting in football (Mike Bobinski)
1f) A lack of the vision, will power, fortitude, and willingness to round up the resources needed to recruit aggressively at a NATIONAL level. Yes, GT needs to do well at home which is talent rich. But you have to recruit national in scope to deal with the restrictions noted here. Bobby Ross recruited nationally. George O'Leary recruited nationally, and even created some out of state talent pipelines like Jesuit HS in Tampa (George Godsey, Will Glover). A lot of key pieces for Paul Johnson were the rare national recruiting landings. Vad Lee (NC), Justin Thomas (AL), Derrick Morgan (PA), Jeremiah Attachou (DC). (hey look ... Dave Braine actually got this one right for the most part! But Radakovich, Bobinski fail here.)

2) The GABOT. The GABOT is run by two things: gross incompetence and UGAg. Okay so maybe one thing. Even though GT pretty much can't get liberal arts majors added "because of unnecessary duplication of offerings", they handed UGAg a new engineering school when you already have Georgia Tech, Georgia Tech-Savannah, and Georgia Southern doing that.

3) The Hill. Unnecessary academic restrictions above and beyond ACC minimums, particularly the calculus requirement.

(07-18-2017 10:25 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 10:06 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 05:27 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  http://universitybenchmarks.com/Power5_U...kings.html

1. GT
4. Duke
10. UVa
13. Miami
16. UNC
20. BC
21. Wake Forest
23. NC State
24. Pitt

28. Clemson
29. FSU
41. VT
51. Louisville
64. Syracuse

So the top 25 list that the ACC dominates with 9 schools ranked and 2 more in the top 30 is a list of how difficult it is to get into for P5 schools?

Actually, after checking the link the rankings of ACC schools are as follows:

1 Georgia Institute of Technology
5 Duke University
13 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
14 University of Virginia
17 University of Notre Dame
22 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
24 Boston College

26 University of Miami
27 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
30 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

31 Wake Forest University
33 Florida State University
37 Clemson University

55 Syracuse University

64 University of Louisville

Chris - the rankings you are citing are an overall ranking that included return on investment, faculty strength, etc., etc.

That's not an admissions ranking.

The element I used is the measure of how difficult it is once you get into the University - how easy is it to get an A for lack of a better word.

That particular site also ranks for entry score average which is close to the difficulty of getting in - the admission rate is sort of a red herring because if you gin up a lot of applications that will never make it, you lower you admission rate. Anyway the ACC goes as follows:

Vandy is number one in this metric by the way.

4 - Duke
5 - GT
6 - ND
9- BC
13 - Miami
14 - WF
18 - UNC
23 - Pitt
28 - VT
Tie for 30 - NC State, Clemson, FSU
42 - Syracuse
61 - Louisville

The ACC schools are even more difficult to get into from a scores standpoint.

These are the numbers for those admitted. A private school can admit who they want, but I know for a fact that Duke does have a slight bias to North Carolina, and the Durham area in particular. It's "slight" but it only takes a few kids when you are admitting just a couple of thousand. WF has a slight bias toward Piedmont/Western NC and Southwest Va - again, just slight. Often these "biases" come from their Board Members on behalf of quasi-local kids. They are great students, but not top .1%.

The schools in NC that are public - NC State and UNC have an out of state cap that is supposed to be 18%.

The bottom 15 are interesting:

51 - Kansas
Tie 52 - Kentucky - Alabama
54 - Mississippi State
55 - Oregon
56 - Arizona
57 = Oregon State
58 - Michigan State
59 - Oklahoma State
Tie 61 - Ole Miss - Texas Tech
62 - Louisville
63 - Kansas State
64 - West Va
65 - Washington State

The numbers indicate that Syracuse is relatively easy to get into, but not easy grade wise.

Syracuse is the only ACC school that has such a wide divergence 64 to get in 41 once you are there.
NCSU is 30 to get in but 23 once you are there.

VT, WF, and BC are slightly easier once you are there, based on the difficult get in.

Duke, UNC, ND, Miami, FSU, and Clemson all match or come to close to matching both - but this is just a year's snapshot.

The main takeaway is that GT is damn difficult without the plethora of non-STEM courses to raise your GPA or keep you in school.

If you cut this group of 65 into five tiers and make the middle tier your baseline, it's probably an order of magnitude more difficult to put legitimate student P-5 football players on the field at upper rough tier and and an order of magnitude easier to put them on the on the field heading toward the bottom.

(07-19-2017 10:05 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 10:25 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Actually, after checking the link the rankings of ACC schools are as follows:

1 Georgia Institute of Technology
5 Duke University
13 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
14 University of Virginia
17 University of Notre Dame
22 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
24 Boston College

26 University of Miami
27 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
30 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

31 Wake Forest University
33 Florida State University
37 Clemson University

55 Syracuse University

64 University of Louisville

Chris - the rankings you are citing are an overall ranking that included return on investment, faculty strength, etc., etc.

That's not an admissions ranking.

The element I used is the measure of how difficult it is once you get into the University - how easy is it to get an A for lack of a better word.

Ok, so you took the second category, "difficulty" and used that.

To me, a more important category would be Salary ROI. That would be the most important category to me. Those rankings look like:

1 Georgia Institute of Technology
2 Duke University
3 University of Notre Dame
13 Clemson University
15 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
17 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
24 University of Virginia
30 Wake Forest University
52 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
54 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
55 Boston College
56 University of Louisville
57 Florida State University
60 University of Miami
66 Syracuse University

Salary ROI is a story of the haves and have nots in the ACC. The top 8 are in the top 30 nationally including the top 3, and the bottom 7 are outside the top 50 out of 68 ranked.