SAT scores direct relationship to college success and higher incomes:

http://blog.prepscholar.com/does-sat-pre...ure-income

(06-27-2017 10:35 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  SAT scores direct relationship to college success and higher incomes:

http://blog.prepscholar.com/does-sat-pre...ure-income

Good grief. You cite an article written by a standardized test company in support of the value of standardized testing as proof that standardized tests are the holy grail?

Oh, and your long, convoluted post trying to use soccer talent as a metaphor for making admissions decisions was pathetic, and wrong headed, but "A" for effort.

I just want to know where he plagiarized that material from. There is no dukeman post that long in the history of dukeman posts. Copy/paste? Or is this truly dukeman's JMU Alamo?

Longhorn,

I don't mean to call you out personally, but you are the most vocal advocate here for the admin - pretty much whatever the topic (including this one). Please explain this:

VA Schools that require test scores: UVA, WM, VT and VCU (among others)

Those WaPo published VA schools that don't: ODU, MWU, CNU, Hampton and Marymount.

The schools above are so clearly night and day. Why are we distancing ourselves from the better schools and aligning ourselves with that dreck? We have more applicants than we can possibly take every year. There's something else going on, and he wears his cowboy hats backwards. You're cool with that, I get it. But I'd like my degree not to be a laughing stock in ten years.

Don't expect a response as to why the route JMU has taken on the SAT issue is the opposite of that taken by Virginia's tier 1 national universities. You are not going to get a response unless the response does not focus on the question but does include a wordy and passive aggressive insult.

My wife and I currently serve on the Parents Council, and last fall we went through an admissions exercise where we looked at a handful of real applications (personal info redacted) and were to make a decision on who we would admit and who we wouldn't. It was discussed at that meeting that the elimination of the standardized test requirement was coming, JMU has developed a very structured "point system" criteria they use to "score" applications.

A couple of things I discovered during this process. 1) it's hard as hell, and in this case it turns out that all the applications we were reviewing had already been accepted. Very strong resumes, most also included an essay (which has been optional for some time). 2) the score they are developing is fairly complex, and primarily objective (it's impossible to remove ALL subjectivity from a process like this). The key criteria that I remembered was the measurement that evaluated how much a student challenged themselves with advanced/honors level classes that were available. For example, if a school offered 40 opportunities and a student only took advantage of 20 he/she might not score as high as a kid that was offered only 10 opportunities but took advantage of 9. In that way a prospective student could only take advantage of being in a "better" school if they actually challenged themselves with what was offered.

Personally I don't see this as the end of the world, but maybe my perspective is skewed because I am from the class of 1992. What I felt was typical of a JMU student then is that they tended to be well-rounded, and not necessarily the best student in their class but certainly a very good student in their class. They would also have diverse interests, tended to be good athletes, and quite frankly tended to be the kind of people you wanted to spend time with. I fail to see where we've lost any of that, and I know that I for one would be a huge hypocrite for desiring a shift to a strict academics focus since if that was the only criteria I had been judged on I don't think I'd be an alum right now.

I could be wrong, but I think VCU has also done away with the test requirement. I also wouldn't consider CNU to be "dreck", I know a lot of very strong students that choose that option now and they've made tremendous strides over the past decade. I don't think JMU is falling back to the pack so much as I think a few schools have committed to pick it up, keep an eye on what strides Radford makes over the next 20 years. They've started to offer degree programs that are appealing, if they improve their admissions profile they could make advances that would surprise us. CNU was essentially a community college when I was making my decision, it's certainly not that anymore. The key is we need to continue making our own advances, and not settle for allowing the pack to catch up to us.

(06-27-2017 11:48 PM)91Alum Wrote:  Longhorn,

I don't mean to call you out personally, but you are the most vocal advocate here for the admin - pretty much whatever the topic (including this one). Please explain this:

VA Schools that require test scores: UVA, WM, VT and VCU (among others)

Those WaPo published VA schools that don't: ODU, MWU, CNU, Hampton and Marymount.

The schools above are so clearly night and day. Why are we distancing ourselves from the better schools and aligning ourselves with that dreck? We have more applicants than we can possibly take every year. There's something else going on, and he wears his cowboy hats backwards. You're cool with that, I get it. But I'd like my degree not to be a laughing stock in ten years.

Your perception is your perception, but our administration is not the "bad guy" here, so I'm curious why you think being a voice of reason on a board that oftentimes goes overboard with hyperbole about the way JMU is managed is something you seem to struggle with.

As for your "night and day" comment you're way off base. Admission decisions are not all about standardized test scores, and haven't been for sometime. Get over the simplistic mindset that a test, taken on a single day, can sum up the aptitude of a student's future success at JMU. JMU is looking for students that will succeed at our institution, and beyond after they graduate. Based on JMU's graduation rates (compared to other public universities), and not just in VA, but from around the country, I think the evidence confirms JMU is keeping company with the best.

Oh, and if you'll care to do the research, I believe you'll find I was the first to comment on this board about the way Pres. Alger wore his cowboy hat in the now infamous photo.

(06-28-2017 06:11 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  My wife and I currently serve on the Parents Council, and last fall we went through an admissions exercise where we looked at a handful of real applications (personal info redacted) and were to make a decision on who we would admit and who we wouldn't. It was discussed at that meeting that the elimination of the standardized test requirement was coming, JMU has developed a very structured "point system" criteria they use to "score" applications.

A couple of things I discovered during this process. 1) it's hard as hell, and in this case it turns out that all the applications we were reviewing had already been accepted. Very strong resumes, most also included an essay (which has been optional for some time). 2) the score they are developing is fairly complex, and primarily objective (it's impossible to remove ALL subjectivity from a process like this). The key criteria that I remembered was the measurement that evaluated how much a student challenged themselves with advanced/honors level classes that were available. For example, if a school offered 40 opportunities and a student only took advantage of 20 he/she might not score as high as a kid that was offered only 10 opportunities but took advantage of 9. In that way a prospective student could only take advantage of being in a "better" school if they actually challenged themselves with what was offered.

Personally I don't see this as the end of the world, but maybe my perspective is skewed because I am from the class of 1992. What I felt was typical of a JMU student then is that they tended to be well-rounded, and not necessarily the best student in their class but certainly a very good student in their class. They would also have diverse interests, tended to be good athletes, and quite frankly tended to be the kind of people you wanted to spend time with. I fail to see where we've lost any of that, and I know that I for one would be a huge hypocrite for desiring a shift to a strict academics focus since if that was the only criteria I had been judged on I don't think I'd be an alum right now.

I could be wrong, but I think VCU has also done away with the test requirement. I also wouldn't consider CNU to be "dreck", I know a lot of very strong students that choose that option now and they've made tremendous strides over the past decade. I don't think JMU is falling back to the pack so much as I think a few schools have committed to pick it up, keep an eye on what strides Radford makes over the next 20 years. They've started to offer degree programs that are appealing, if they improve their admissions profile they could make advances that would surprise us. CNU was essentially a community college when I was making my decision, it's certainly not that anymore. The key is we need to continue making our own advances, and not settle for allowing the pack to catch up to us.

A thoughtful post, and one that I hope will shed some much needed light on the subject of admissions. It's a difficult process, and despite aspersions, doubts and skepticisms made by those on the outside looking in, JMU officials in charge of the process know what they're doing.

If naysayers about JMU's current admission profile think it should more closely mirror that developed at UVA or W&M, or for many on this board, at least be higher than VT's, support the newly established Honor's College, or establish a scholarship in your discipline. JMU is in the awkward position (and our tremendous growth has only exacerbated this issue) of attracting excellent students in the admissions process, but losing them to schools with deeper pockets. That's the bare truth of the situation, but no student is admitted to JMU that isn't ready for college. We don't admit dummies.

(06-28-2017 08:12 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 06:11 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  My wife and I currently serve on the Parents Council, and last fall we went through an admissions exercise where we looked at a handful of real applications (personal info redacted) and were to make a decision on who we would admit and who we wouldn't. It was discussed at that meeting that the elimination of the standardized test requirement was coming, JMU has developed a very structured "point system" criteria they use to "score" applications.

A couple of things I discovered during this process. 1) it's hard as hell, and in this case it turns out that all the applications we were reviewing had already been accepted. Very strong resumes, most also included an essay (which has been optional for some time). 2) the score they are developing is fairly complex, and primarily objective (it's impossible to remove ALL subjectivity from a process like this). The key criteria that I remembered was the measurement that evaluated how much a student challenged themselves with advanced/honors level classes that were available. For example, if a school offered 40 opportunities and a student only took advantage of 20 he/she might not score as high as a kid that was offered only 10 opportunities but took advantage of 9. In that way a prospective student could only take advantage of being in a "better" school if they actually challenged themselves with what was offered.

Personally I don't see this as the end of the world, but maybe my perspective is skewed because I am from the class of 1992. What I felt was typical of a JMU student then is that they tended to be well-rounded, and not necessarily the best student in their class but certainly a very good student in their class. They would also have diverse interests, tended to be good athletes, and quite frankly tended to be the kind of people you wanted to spend time with. I fail to see where we've lost any of that, and I know that I for one would be a huge hypocrite for desiring a shift to a strict academics focus since if that was the only criteria I had been judged on I don't think I'd be an alum right now.

I could be wrong, but I think VCU has also done away with the test requirement. I also wouldn't consider CNU to be "dreck", I know a lot of very strong students that choose that option now and they've made tremendous strides over the past decade. I don't think JMU is falling back to the pack so much as I think a few schools have committed to pick it up, keep an eye on what strides Radford makes over the next 20 years. They've started to offer degree programs that are appealing, if they improve their admissions profile they could make advances that would surprise us. CNU was essentially a community college when I was making my decision, it's certainly not that anymore. The key is we need to continue making our own advances, and not settle for allowing the pack to catch up to us.

A thoughtful post, and one that I hope will shed some much needed light on the subject of admissions. It's a difficult process, and despite aspersions, doubts and skepticisms made by those on the outside looking in, JMU officials in charge of the process know what they're doing.

If naysayers about JMU's current admission profile think it should more closely mirror that developed at UVA or W&M, or for many on this board, at least be higher than VT's, support the newly established Honor's College, or establish a scholarship in your discipline. JMU is in the awkward position (and our tremendous growth has only exacerbated this issue) of attracting excellent students in the admissions process, but losing them to schools with deeper pockets. That's the bare truth of the situation, but no student is admitted to JMU that isn't ready for college. We don't admit dummies.

I think these are both excellent posts. JMU continues to excel and attract high-level students and produce excellent graduates. What employer asks what your SAT score was? If an institution thinks you have the resume to do well with or without the test scores and you go to that institution and do well, that is what matters. I agree with JMUSteeler that The key is we need to continue making our own advances, and not settle for allowing the pack to catch up to us.

(06-27-2017 11:23 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I just want to know where he plagiarized that material from. There is no dukeman post that long in the history of dukeman posts. Copy/paste? Or is this truly dukeman's JMU Alamo?

He plagiarized it from here: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCou...y?id=98373

He also referenced the "SAT scores predict college success/future income" article, but ignored that one of the main focuses of the article is discussing the nature of the relationship and that it's very difficult to determine what is cause and what is effect.

(06-28-2017 08:12 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 06:11 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  My wife and I currently serve on the Parents Council, and last fall we went through an admissions exercise where we looked at a handful of real applications (personal info redacted) and were to make a decision on who we would admit and who we wouldn't. It was discussed at that meeting that the elimination of the standardized test requirement was coming, JMU has developed a very structured "point system" criteria they use to "score" applications.

A couple of things I discovered during this process. 1) it's hard as hell, and in this case it turns out that all the applications we were reviewing had already been accepted. Very strong resumes, most also included an essay (which has been optional for some time). 2) the score they are developing is fairly complex, and primarily objective (it's impossible to remove ALL subjectivity from a process like this). The key criteria that I remembered was the measurement that evaluated how much a student challenged themselves with advanced/honors level classes that were available. For example, if a school offered 40 opportunities and a student only took advantage of 20 he/she might not score as high as a kid that was offered only 10 opportunities but took advantage of 9. In that way a prospective student could only take advantage of being in a "better" school if they actually challenged themselves with what was offered.

Personally I don't see this as the end of the world, but maybe my perspective is skewed because I am from the class of 1992. What I felt was typical of a JMU student then is that they tended to be well-rounded, and not necessarily the best student in their class but certainly a very good student in their class. They would also have diverse interests, tended to be good athletes, and quite frankly tended to be the kind of people you wanted to spend time with. I fail to see where we've lost any of that, and I know that I for one would be a huge hypocrite for desiring a shift to a strict academics focus since if that was the only criteria I had been judged on I don't think I'd be an alum right now.

I could be wrong, but I think VCU has also done away with the test requirement. I also wouldn't consider CNU to be "dreck", I know a lot of very strong students that choose that option now and they've made tremendous strides over the past decade. I don't think JMU is falling back to the pack so much as I think a few schools have committed to pick it up, keep an eye on what strides Radford makes over the next 20 years. They've started to offer degree programs that are appealing, if they improve their admissions profile they could make advances that would surprise us. CNU was essentially a community college when I was making my decision, it's certainly not that anymore. The key is we need to continue making our own advances, and not settle for allowing the pack to catch up to us.

A thoughtful post, and one that I hope will shed some much needed light on the subject of admissions. It's a difficult process, and despite aspersions, doubts and skepticisms made by those on the outside looking in, JMU officials in charge of the process know what they're doing.

If naysayers about JMU's current admission profile think it should more closely mirror that developed at UVA or W&M, or for many on this board, at least be higher than VT's, support the newly established Honor's College, or establish a scholarship in your discipline. JMU is in the awkward position (and our tremendous growth has only exacerbated this issue) of attracting excellent students in the admissions process, but losing them to schools with deeper pockets. That's the bare truth of the situation, but no student is admitted to JMU that isn't ready for college. We don't admit dummies.

Great point, I wish I'd thought to make it. CNU's recent appeal seems to revolve around their Honors program, and I specifically know of kids who chose CNU over JMU due to that criteria alone. My younger daughter, who wants to go into nursing, will actually consider Longwood because they have a strong program in her area of interest AND with her academics if she gets into their Honors program it might be worth a lot of money to her (me). I certainly never thought I'd see the day where one of my own kids was choosing between JMU and Longwood potentially......

(06-28-2017 09:30 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  Great point, I wish I'd thought to make it. CNU's recent appeal seems to revolve around their Honors program, and I specifically know of kids who chose CNU over JMU due to that criteria alone. My younger daughter, who wants to go into nursing, will actually consider Longwood because they have a strong program in her area of interest AND with her academics if she gets into their Honors program it might be worth a lot of money to her (me). I certainly never thought I'd see the day where one of my own kids was choosing between JMU and Longwood potentially......

Not to sidetrack the discussion but isn't JMU's nursing program considering the best in the state?

This is kind of the reverse process that we saw with offering BB COA stipends. We dragged our feet with that until it was painfully obvious we had to offer it. With this, we decided to be an early-adopter. The number of schools getting rid of the SAT/ACT requirement is only going to grow. I see JMU as being on the right side of history on this, but it's easy to point at prestigious schools who still require the tests, ignoring the prestigious schools that agree with JMU's test-optional approach.

Opponents will argue that everyone's a baby now & life shouldn't be "easy". (A very narcissistic viewpoint focused on wanting every kid to experience the same obstacles as them). Those people will whine as long as they feel there is an audience listening to them.

(06-28-2017 09:34 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 09:30 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  Great point, I wish I'd thought to make it. CNU's recent appeal seems to revolve around their Honors program, and I specifically know of kids who chose CNU over JMU due to that criteria alone. My younger daughter, who wants to go into nursing, will actually consider Longwood because they have a strong program in her area of interest AND with her academics if she gets into their Honors program it might be worth a lot of money to her (me). I certainly never thought I'd see the day where one of my own kids was choosing between JMU and Longwood potentially......

Not to sidetrack the discussion but isn't JMU's nursing program considering the best in the state?

Certainly one of the top 2, the problem is you can't apply for it directly out of high school and instead have to wait until after your 3rd semester. Longwood is currently 4th, but you can get into the program directly out of high school. This is strictly anecdotal, but we know several people who got into JMU but failed to get into nursing and either had to change majors or transfer. That has to be part of your decision making process.

(06-28-2017 09:25 AM)jmuwyhamhgawd Wrote:  

(06-27-2017 11:23 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I just want to know where he plagiarized that material from. There is no dukeman post that long in the history of dukeman posts. Copy/paste? Or is this truly dukeman's JMU Alamo?

He plagiarized it from here: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCou...y?id=98373

He also referenced the "SAT scores predict college success/future income" article, but ignored that one of the main focuses of the article is discussing the nature of the relationship and that it's very difficult to determine what is cause and what is effect.

It's kinda sad how predictable dukeman is with his plagiarism. Every once in awhile he'll add a link, but usually he just posts full articles as if they're his own idea. The best part is when his argument is torn down by the very articles he posts!

(06-27-2017 09:38 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-27-2017 06:06 PM)bcp_jmu Wrote:  

(06-27-2017 02:16 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-27-2017 01:30 PM)bcp_jmu Wrote:  why haven't we hit that National U goal yet? Alger has had 5 years.....

Why haven't you made your first $100 million yet?

Or if you have, why haven't you written that huge check to JMU's endowment that will advance JMU towards its goal?

Ha..this doesn't even begin to make sense...Alger's self-stated goals are in no way tied to my income, or my JMU-giving ...

Let's not move the target



I did find this encouraging, though it's from nearly two years ago:

http://www.jmu.edu/news/madisonscholar/2...dean.shtml

"Students comparing graduate schools are looking across the range of disciplines – business, engineering, science areas, social sciences and humanities. JMU has an opportunity to increase enrollment in these fields, especially in the development of interdisciplinary and applied programs, Chen said. "

The reference to $$$$ and a larger endowment makes perfect sense as the almighty dollar is the real key to making progress towards whatever we might agree upon constitutes a "national university." We need a cohort of mega-wealthy alumni to drop some big numbers on the JMU Foundation if we want to see faster progress. As the Queen said to Alice in [/i]Through the Looking Glass you need to run as fast as you can to stay in place, and twice as fast if you want to go somewhere.

A bit of perspective is in order here. I don't believe there was ever a "five year plan" by President Alger to move JMU into a category as a "national university." Honestly, the phrase (national university) hasn't been well defined as far as I'm concerned, but I'm fairly confident it doesn't imply turning JMU into a research intensive (R1) university. The money isn't there to support such a move, nor is the political mandate. While Dean Chen is correct in outlining that a broader range of graduate programs may be forthcoming, with larger graduate enrollments, the resources for graduate programs at JMU are still thin at best (and that's putting it politely).

JMU continues to evolve, and a more distinctive "national" profile is part of that evolution. The last two decades have been extraordinary in terms of JMU's growth, and anyone associated with the institution can take great pride in how the university is situated today. The evolution of JMU as a "national university" will continue...but if there is a timeline as to when that goal is supposed to be achieved I've not seen it in print, and it would be counterproductive to suggest there is a future point in time that JMU could ever rest on its laurels and say it's finished growing.

If you don't clearly set a goal - nobody can accuse you of not achieving it...is that the situation we are in here? i stand on this - you can't be "the new model for a national engaged university"...unless you are a NATIONALLY categorized university :)

You can argue semantics all you want. I'm not saying "in 5 years" was cast in stone...but because it wasn't, that doesn't make it sad that we are still categorized as a regional university - look at our peers...come on man, it just doesn't pass the smell test anymore.


Now you may point out "but the goal doesn't say this!!" ... fine... but the 2020 strategic plan does [i]and is as clear as we can expect from this admin

http://www.jmu.edu/jmuplans/_docs/Strategic_Plan.pdf
^^
Some great things in here! Too much of an obsession the word "engagement"...but hey, it's a thing and let's embrace working in the community and around the world for a better ed experience. that said..... references to "National"? you betcha... it's mentioned 10 times in this document. "Regional"? Mentioned twice - and ONLY to say "we are going beyond our region".


The new style of JMU goals...
http://www.jmu.edu/jmuplans/_docs/Strate...asures.pdf
^^
Some of those are solid goals!! Oh wait...a full 2/3 of them are "Will be Monitored" or "Increases Annually". That is incredibly weak and flabby - goals need to be specific, measurable, time-bound, and relevant. My god, we have slipped into using nebulous goals that can be reinterpreted later...it's annoying , and very political / safe feeling.


http://www.jmu.edu/jmuplans/jmu-strategi...ndex.shtml
^^
Finally, please check out the 4:30 mark in this video, and tell me we aren't aiming to be a national university - 3 years to go Alger, Longhorn and team!! cheers.

We can all sleep well tonight knowing that the ever changing and fluid landscape of higher education is being monitored closely and many constituent groups are being engaged.

(06-28-2017 09:36 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 09:34 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 09:30 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  Great point, I wish I'd thought to make it. CNU's recent appeal seems to revolve around their Honors program, and I specifically know of kids who chose CNU over JMU due to that criteria alone. My younger daughter, who wants to go into nursing, will actually consider Longwood because they have a strong program in her area of interest AND with her academics if she gets into their Honors program it might be worth a lot of money to her (me). I certainly never thought I'd see the day where one of my own kids was choosing between JMU and Longwood potentially......

Not to sidetrack the discussion but isn't JMU's nursing program considering the best in the state?

Certainly one of the top 2, the problem is you can't apply for it directly out of high school and instead have to wait until after your 3rd semester. Longwood is currently 4th, but you can get into the program directly out of high school. This is strictly anecdotal, but we know several people who got into JMU but failed to get into nursing and either had to change majors or transfer. That has to be part of your decision making process.

This is true, as it is for several majors across campus. You might think of it as a "second" admissions process, as the most competitive programs have a review process that screens and then admits only the most deserving students to their major. Call it quality control or whatever you'd like, but JMU faculty are focused on graduating students that are going to represent the best of the best in their chosen discipline. That's the true "JMU Way."

Speaking as a long-time member of the faculty, I would encourage your daughter not to make her choice based on a concern that she can't make it at JMU, or at what time after admission she is "officially" recognized as a nursing student. JMU's new health building and its equipment are absolutely first rate, and its coordination in physical proximity to the new student health center gives aspiring nurses an opportunity for practical experience right on campus. There's a reason JMU's nursing program is so highly regarded, and like they say in sports, if you want to be the best, you've got to play with (and beat) the best.

Should your daughter choose JMU, and for whatever reason not make the cut into the nursing program (shudder) Longwood will be happy to accept her as a transfer, and she can complete the nursing program there. But if she's bright enough to earn admission to JMU, and will work hard, completing the nursing program at JMU is a reasonable expectation.

That said, JMU offers so many other career possibilities (more so than Longwood), that once on campus she will experience a richer range of curricular options, and she may decide she'd rather go into a branch of bio-med research or audiology, or something she's not even thought about as of yet. Not knocking Longwood, as it's the right choice for a different kind of student. I'd dare say, however, the vast majority of Longwood's nursing graduates are going to be more likely to work for, or be supervised by, the graduates of JMU's nursing program.

Food for thought.

(06-28-2017 09:36 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 09:34 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(06-28-2017 09:30 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  Great point, I wish I'd thought to make it. CNU's recent appeal seems to revolve around their Honors program, and I specifically know of kids who chose CNU over JMU due to that criteria alone. My younger daughter, who wants to go into nursing, will actually consider Longwood because they have a strong program in her area of interest AND with her academics if she gets into their Honors program it might be worth a lot of money to her (me). I certainly never thought I'd see the day where one of my own kids was choosing between JMU and Longwood potentially......

Not to sidetrack the discussion but isn't JMU's nursing program considering the best in the state?

Certainly one of the top 2, the problem is you can't apply for it directly out of high school and instead have to wait until after your 3rd semester. Longwood is currently 4th, but you can get into the program directly out of high school. This is strictly anecdotal, but we know several people who got into JMU but failed to get into nursing and either had to change majors or transfer. That has to be part of your decision making process.

Thanks for the intel!

(06-28-2017 01:29 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  This is true, as it is for several majors across campus. You might think of it as a "second" admissions process, as the most competitive programs have a review process that screens and then admits only the most deserving students to their major. Call it quality control or whatever you'd like, but JMU faculty are focused on graduating students that are going to represent the best of the best in their chosen discipline. That's the true "JMU Way."

Speaking as a long-time member of the faculty, I would encourage your daughter not to make her choice based on a concern that she can't make it at JMU, or at what time after admission she is "officially" recognized as a nursing student. JMU's new health building and its equipment are absolutely first rate, and its coordination in physical proximity to the new student health center gives aspiring nurses an opportunity for practical experience right on campus. There's a reason JMU's nursing program is so highly regarded, and like they say in sports, if you want to be the best, you've got to play with (and beat) the best.

Should your daughter choose JMU, and for whatever reason not make the cut into the nursing program (shudder) Longwood will be happy to accept her as a transfer, and she can complete the nursing program there. But if she's bright enough to earn admission to JMU, and will work hard, completing the nursing program at JMU is a reasonable expectation.

That said, JMU offers so many other career possibilities (more so than Longwood), that once on campus she will experience a richer range of curricular options, and she may decide she'd rather go into a branch of bio-med research or audiology, or something she's not even thought about as of yet. Not knocking Longwood, as it's the right choice for a different kind of student. I'd dare say, however, the vast majority of Longwood's nursing graduates are going to be more likely to work for, or be supervised by, the graduates of JMU's nursing program.

Food for thought.

Preaching to the choir here, I agree with you 100%. This is one of those situations where familiarity breeds contempt to a degree, too many assumptions about what is known being made in my house. So the next step is to quit assuming and using anecdotal info to make a decision, and officially visit and get the whole story. I've tried to explain going to a football game every weekend doesn't tell you jack about your area of academic interest. If you're driven enough to get into an Honors program, you're certainly capable of maintaining that excellence for another year and getting in the nursing program.

If both my daughters get into, and finish, at JMU, then my wife and I couldn't ask for a whole lot more than that. We've got 1 there now, hoping for 2 for 2.