Ok, let's take your premise. They had to lie to get it passed so people could appreciate the benefits.

Million dollar question. Were they wrong? Can you repeal whole root now?

(06-23-2017 04:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo hit the nail on the head. You have some basic Universal ground floor. People that can't get with the program are just going to have to get used to it. I don't understand thinking that the govt. is this over bearing monster. By far and away most of my dealings with the govt have been great. I've never regretted paying taxes. If it's for the good of the order I'm fine with it. Be thankful you don't use it but know if a tragedy hits it's there. Learn to trade stocks. Find another revenue stream.

C'mon Mach. That may well fly for most if not all of us clowning around on this board, but that's not realistic for probably 75% of the people out there. Could they? perhaps. Will they take that risk, have the extra money to be able to suffer a significant loss, learn their way around an ETrade or something?, probably not.

Trading stocks with your families health insurance money is probably not a real good idea for most...

(06-23-2017 04:22 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 04:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo hit the nail on the head. You have some basic Universal ground floor. People that can't get with the program are just going to have to get used to it. I don't understand thinking that the govt. is this over bearing monster. By far and away most of my dealings with the govt have been great. I've never regretted paying taxes. If it's for the good of the order I'm fine with it. Be thankful you don't use it but know if a tragedy hits it's there. Learn to trade stocks. Find another revenue stream.

C'mon Mach. That may well fly for most if not all of us clowning around on this board, but that's not realistic for probably 75% of the people out there. Could they? perhaps. Will they take that risk, have the extra money to be able to suffer a significant loss, learn their way around an ETrade or something?, probably not.

Trading stocks with your families health insurance money is probably not a real good idea for most...

People have no problem running up 10 grand on a credit card buying useless schit and many hospitals are fine with running accounts. I have an AccessOne card that even gives me an instant 7% discount on my bill at any hospital and zero interest if payed off in 12 months. There are options available to pay large bills.

I'm saying the people complaining they are going broke because of insurance have to be missing something. I don't understand it. I hate always bringing up my situation but I went through 71/2 years of hell. My daughter was on a Medi Cain waiver and THNK GOD for the Republicans on that one. You had to apply for this waiver every year and they doled them out by population county by county. I live in a well to do county and we always got the waiver. I'm sure if they opened them up state wide the poor in Cuyahoga county would have eaten them up. I really don't know the answer other than I will always support kids getting insurance and yes pre 2010 they did ration health care. I remember people being in that NICU for two weeks and they got the kids stabilized and if they didn't have insurance they were on the way out. They just were. They weren't denied care but once they were stabilized they were out. I'm my heart that's not right. I would want the same for your kids too.

(06-23-2017 04:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Ok, let's take your premise. They had to lie to get it passed so people could appreciate the benefits.

Million dollar question. Were they wrong? Can you repeal whole root now?

If you had stopped at "they had to lie to get it passed" then yes, I agree. Appreciate the benefits? Who?

Those that "gained" coverage? Yea, mostly folks that jumped on free or heavily subsidized medicaid. Anyone that pays their own fare, or doesn't get a policy from some form of Government job, or employer doesn't pick up much if any of the tab got SCREEEWWWWWEDDDD!!! And that's an awful lot of people.
Having a very good policy covering a family of 4 for around 790 bucks and that covered damn near everything except small co-pays for Rx and that kind of stuff is okay.

Those policies no longer even exist, you can get a similar coverage policy now for 1600++, but first you gotta cover the 1200 deductible and the 2400 family Max, then they'll pick up 80% or so.

Face it, zerOcare completely distorted the market and it's gotta go. But as history has taught us, once an entitlement is in place it is damn near impossible to take it away. I can't even think of a single instance where that has happened.

Welfare reform in the late '90's might be as close to that as has ever happened, and of course that was reversed just a bit over a decade later by the entitlement president.

I'm with you on welfare. I am but health care is different. It just is. I'm reasonably healthy and my family is too. Really have no dog in the fight other than just humanitarian reasons. I want to live in a society that takes care of kids in these situations and I will advocate for it and try to convince you on it too. We need to take the hate out of this and dial it down and remember that guy voting D or R are our neighbors and friends. People shooting people over this. I'm not going to be a part of the hate anymore. I'm not. Peace unto you JMU.

(06-23-2017 04:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm with you on welfare. I am but health care is different. It just is. I'm reasonably healthy and my family is too. Really have no dog in the fight other than just humanitarian reasons. I want to live in a society that takes care of kids in these situations and I will advocate for it and try to convince you on it too. We need to take the hate out of this and dial it down and remember that guy voting D or R are our neighbors and friends. People shooting people over this. I'm not going to be a part of the hate anymore. I'm not. Peace unto you JMU.

Not questioning your motives, I'm sure they're pure. That part was just answering the question can it be "repealed whole root now" part. My opinion is no, there are simply parts of this monstrosity that will remain, and those that did this to the American people knew that at the time- it's damn near impossible to remove an entitlement once in place.

Here's the deal with your "humanitarian reasons"- What this thing has done to MILLLIONS of people is make it significantly harder for them to take care of their own kids.

They got terminated cause they were employee #51, they lost hours to stay below 30hr work week which mandates employer coverage, they've had to take on an additional job(s) (Lots of people in this boat), employer is taking a bigger chunk out of the paycheck to pay premiums, the deductibles are through the roof so they put off care even if/when needed, and a whole host of other problems this thing has created.


So, now that guy/gal that made a decent living is having a much tougher time meeting the needs of his own spouse and kids, they are now expected to subsidize someone else's kids care too? How does that math work? How on earth is that fair?

I don't question your motives, I sure as schit question the motives of those that foisted this thing on us. Why? Cause it was plainly obvious that exactly what is happening would happen. How did we know that? Again, math. There was NO way this thing could work, and these were some pretty smart people that designed this thing, so if I could see there was no way it could work, I'm sure the Havaad PhD. in Economics would know that too. They pushed it through anyway, then bragged about the stupidity of the American people. Well? Maybe some, not all.

If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where do those with bad intentions end up? Hmmmmmm.

(06-23-2017 04:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Ok, let's take your premise. They had to lie to get it passed so people could appreciate the benefits.

Million dollar question. Were they wrong? Can you repeal whole root now?

I disagree with your your premise regarding appreciation.

They had to lie to get it passed as a stepping stone to single-payer.

Were they wrong? That's purely subjective. To me, yes, they were wrong.

If we want to identify specific indicators we can do that.

Rather than talking about how many people gained coverage we should include in the conversation those who lost benefits.

(06-23-2017 04:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm with you on welfare. I am but health care is different. It just is. I'm reasonably healthy and my family is too. Really have no dog in the fight other than just humanitarian reasons. I want to live in a society that takes care of kids in these situations and I will advocate for it and try to convince you on it too. We need to take the hate out of this and dial it down and remember that guy voting D or R are our neighbors and friends. People shooting people over this. I'm not going to be a part of the hate anymore. I'm not. Peace unto you JMU.

I recall an article after ObamaCare went into effect where a supporter was interviewed.

He said he was initially in favor of the program until he found out he was paying for it.


Obama Voters Shocked by Obamacare Cancellations, Skyrocketing Rates

Quote:Matthew Fleischer, 34, writing in the Los Angeles Times, said he received a cancellation notice informing him that his copays would double, urgent-care visits would quadruple, and maximum out-of-pocket expenses would go from $4,900 to $6,350.

“Needless to say, I am not pleased,” writes Fleischer. “Most young, middle-class Americans I know are happy that millions of previously uninsured people will receive free or heavily subsidized insurance under the Affordable Care Act. We just didn’t realize that, unless we had health insurance at work, we’d be the ones paying for it.”

Here's the article in the LA Times:

Obamacare: Unfair to the young middle class, punished enough already

That's not the only example I've seen, but it's the first one I came across when googling a link to support my comment.

(06-23-2017 04:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Ok, let's take your premise. They had to lie to get it passed so people could appreciate the benefits.

Million dollar question. Were they wrong? Can you repeal whole root now?

What benefits? Remember the poll I ran on here a while back about who was a winner or loser due to Obamacare? Far, far more losers than winners around here.

Who exactly gets to appreciate these supposed benefits?

(06-23-2017 05:30 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 04:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm with you on welfare. I am but health care is different. It just is. I'm reasonably healthy and my family is too. Really have no dog in the fight other than just humanitarian reasons. I want to live in a society that takes care of kids in these situations and I will advocate for it and try to convince you on it too. We need to take the hate out of this and dial it down and remember that guy voting D or R are our neighbors and friends. People shooting people over this. I'm not going to be a part of the hate anymore. I'm not. Peace unto you JMU.

I recall an article after ObamaCare went into effect where a supporter was interviewed.

He said he was initially in favor of the program until he found out he was paying for it.


Obama Voters Shocked by Obamacare Cancellations, Skyrocketing Rates

Quote:Matthew Fleischer, 34, writing in the Los Angeles Times, said he received a cancellation notice informing him that his copays would double, urgent-care visits would quadruple, and maximum out-of-pocket expenses would go from $4,900 to $6,350.

“Needless to say, I am not pleased,” writes Fleischer. “Most young, middle-class Americans I know are happy that millions of previously uninsured people will receive free or heavily subsidized insurance under the Affordable Care Act. We just didn’t realize that, unless we had health insurance at work, we’d be the ones paying for it.”

Here's the article in the LA Times:

Obamacare: Unfair to the young middle class, punished enough already

That's not the only example I've seen, but it's the first one I came across when googling a link to support my comment.

I hate to say it, but this guy is the very embodiment of the "stupidity of the American people".

Quote:“Most young, middle-class Americans I know are happy that millions of previously uninsured people will receive free or heavily subsidized insurance

Well, dummy , when has anything ever been "free"?!? When has anything gone DOWN in price once Government gets involved? who the hell did you think was going to pay for that? The same people getting "free or heavily subsidized insurance"?!?

Hope this guy's a heck of a good writer, cause math and basic economics certainly ain't his thing. Damn.

(06-23-2017 04:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo hit the nail on the head. You have some basic Universal ground floor. People that can't get with the program are just going to have to get used to it. I don't understand thinking that the govt. is this over bearing monster. By far and away most of my dealings with the govt have been great. I've never regretted paying taxes. If it's for the good of the order I'm fine with it. Be thankful you don't use it but know if a tragedy hits it's there. Learn to trade stocks. Find another revenue stream.

you're paid in tax money. of course you like taxation.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

(06-23-2017 06:06 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 04:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo hit the nail on the head. You have some basic Universal ground floor. People that can't get with the program are just going to have to get used to it. I don't understand thinking that the govt. is this over bearing monster. By far and away most of my dealings with the govt have been great. I've never regretted paying taxes. If it's for the good of the order I'm fine with it. Be thankful you don't use it but know if a tragedy hits it's there. Learn to trade stocks. Find another revenue stream.

you're paid in tax money. of course you like taxation.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Just keep in mind that not all of us who are or were earning our living working for the government are insatiable leeches of the taxpayer's wallet.

(06-23-2017 06:12 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 06:06 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 04:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo hit the nail on the head. You have some basic Universal ground floor. People that can't get with the program are just going to have to get used to it. I don't understand thinking that the govt. is this over bearing monster. By far and away most of my dealings with the govt have been great. I've never regretted paying taxes. If it's for the good of the order I'm fine with it. Be thankful you don't use it but know if a tragedy hits it's there. Learn to trade stocks. Find another revenue stream.

you're paid in tax money. of course you like taxation.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Just keep in mind that not all of us who are or were earning our living working for the government are insatiable leeches of the taxpayer's wallet.

Democrats wanna make America into Illiinois.

(06-23-2017 04:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm with you on welfare. I am but health care is different. It just is. I'm reasonably healthy and my family is too. Really have no dog in the fight other than just humanitarian reasons. I want to live in a society that takes care of kids in these situations and I will advocate for it and try to convince you on it too. We need to take the hate out of this and dial it down and remember that guy voting D or R are our neighbors and friends. People shooting people over this. I'm not going to be a part of the hate anymore. I'm not. Peace unto you JMU.

I can respect that position.

You have me pondering where the line of demarcation should be. What part of staying alive is the individual's responsibility, and what part of that is the state's? Or more to the point, where do we as a country think that line should be?

It's not a simple question and has many layers from product safety to utilities to law enforcement to EBT to HUD to health care and 100 more.

I think there is probably some consensus that those physically unable to provide for themselves are different and should be handled differently.

Beyond that I think we are all over the map partly because we haven't as a country addressed the actual core question. We need to do that because how you answer that question determines what you need to do in all of those other areas.

If the ultimate bill looks like what people are saying it looks like ... I will:

- Never support the GOP itself in any meaningful way for the rest of time
- Vote against whoever voted for it for the rest of time, even if that means pulling the lever for a Democrat
- Actively campaign against in the primaries whoever voted for it for the rest of time
- Pull the plug on the health insurance market entirely and go to secular faith based health sharing organizations.

(06-23-2017 06:12 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 06:06 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 04:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo hit the nail on the head. You have some basic Universal ground floor. People that can't get with the program are just going to have to get used to it. I don't understand thinking that the govt. is this over bearing monster. By far and away most of my dealings with the govt have been great. I've never regretted paying taxes. If it's for the good of the order I'm fine with it. Be thankful you don't use it but know if a tragedy hits it's there. Learn to trade stocks. Find another revenue stream.

you're paid in tax money. of course you like taxation.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Just keep in mind that not all of us who are or were earning our living working for the government are insatiable leeches of the taxpayer's wallet.

No doubt. You weren't in the indoctrination industry.

(06-23-2017 06:23 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  If the ultimate bill looks like what people are saying it looks like ... I will:

- Never support the GOP itself in any meaningful way for the rest of time
- Vote against whoever voted for it for the rest of time, even if that means pulling the lever for a Democrat
- Actively campaign against in the primaries whoever voted for it for the rest of time
- Pull the plug on the health insurance market entirely and go to secular faith based health sharing organizations.

So far they are blowing this big time. As it looks now, they're gonna blow tax reform too.

(06-23-2017 05:45 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 05:30 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 04:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm with you on welfare. I am but health care is different. It just is. I'm reasonably healthy and my family is too. Really have no dog in the fight other than just humanitarian reasons. I want to live in a society that takes care of kids in these situations and I will advocate for it and try to convince you on it too. We need to take the hate out of this and dial it down and remember that guy voting D or R are our neighbors and friends. People shooting people over this. I'm not going to be a part of the hate anymore. I'm not. Peace unto you JMU.

I recall an article after ObamaCare went into effect where a supporter was interviewed.

He said he was initially in favor of the program until he found out he was paying for it.


Obama Voters Shocked by Obamacare Cancellations, Skyrocketing Rates

Quote:Matthew Fleischer, 34, writing in the Los Angeles Times, said he received a cancellation notice informing him that his copays would double, urgent-care visits would quadruple, and maximum out-of-pocket expenses would go from $4,900 to $6,350.

“Needless to say, I am not pleased,” writes Fleischer. “Most young, middle-class Americans I know are happy that millions of previously uninsured people will receive free or heavily subsidized insurance under the Affordable Care Act. We just didn’t realize that, unless we had health insurance at work, we’d be the ones paying for it.”

Here's the article in the LA Times:

Obamacare: Unfair to the young middle class, punished enough already

That's not the only example I've seen, but it's the first one I came across when googling a link to support my comment.

I hate to say it, but this guy is the very embodiment of the "stupidity of the American people".

Quote:“Most young, middle-class Americans I know are happy that millions of previously uninsured people will receive free or heavily subsidized insurance

Well, dummy , when has anything ever been "free"?!? When has anything gone DOWN in price once Government gets involved? who the hell did you think was going to pay for that? The same people getting "free or heavily subsidized insurance"?!?

Hope this guy's a heck of a good writer, cause math and basic economics certainly ain't his thing. Damn.

When I worked, I paid into the Medicare insurance. The problem is that we are tax by our city, our county, our state and our federal governments. They blow the money not on us, but on stupid things that could go into the social programs to keep them afloat. We need to turn some of the money from taxes as an investment into the Medicaid, Medicare and SS for life. That way, the poor or lower income families that are considered poor do pay into this and get excess to the programs. The tax money could go into savings accounts so that the government can't raid the money for wars and all that. We could easily solved the issues, but both parties, drug companies and health insurance companies won't work together to fix the problem. What the Senate Bill will do is make things worst, and there is only like 16% of the people of this country is in favor of this. Trump is backtracking on his support of congress and the Senate bills since he sees how unfavorable these bills are.

(06-23-2017 07:00 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 06:23 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  If the ultimate bill looks like what people are saying it looks like ... I will:

- Never support the GOP itself in any meaningful way for the rest of time
- Vote against whoever voted for it for the rest of time, even if that means pulling the lever for a Democrat
- Actively campaign against in the primaries whoever voted for it for the rest of time
- Pull the plug on the health insurance market entirely and go to secular faith based health sharing organizations.

So far they are blowing this big time. As it looks now, they're gonna blow tax reform too.

Tweaking this bill just enough to get 51 senate votes isn't going to be enough to get it approved by the HOR freedom caucus. As Kasich would say, "that train is dead".