(06-21-2017 12:49 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:47 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Moral of the story listen.. to commands and comply and these types will stay alive.

If police officers are susceptible to "heat of the moment" mistakes ... I wonder if we can give the same leeway to the subjects?

Straw man.... try again. Play stupid ... Win stupid prizes.

(06-21-2017 12:49 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:47 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 10:35 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:09 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Where was Castille's wife/"friend girl" ..huh? Oh yes, she was there filming her man bleed out live streaming on Social Media.
Shouldn't she be held to some standard as well?

She did nothing wrong.

She got out of the situation exactly what she put into it... nothing!

She was looking for a gotcha moment against the PO-PO and get her some 15 minutes of fame.

Moral of the story listen.. to commands and comply and these types will stay alive.

"These types"?

Yep these.. those types! The types that don't listen and comply to the orders being given by law enforcement to John Q Public.

(06-21-2017 12:39 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:36 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  So you're saying you hope Yanez shot him in cold blood rather than self defense?

As we both seemed to agree only a few posts ago, it was a tragic mistake on both parties account.

Neither party was intending to shoot anyone, at the start of the traffic stop.

Then your post to Bullet was out of line. He was getting at a legit point, that in the video there seemed to already have been an exchange.

(06-21-2017 12:54 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:49 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:47 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 10:35 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:09 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Where was Castille's wife/"friend girl" ..huh? Oh yes, she was there filming her man bleed out live streaming on Social Media.
Shouldn't she be held to some standard as well?

She did nothing wrong.

She got out of the situation exactly what she put into it... nothing!

She was looking for a gotcha moment against the PO-PO and get her some 15 minutes of fame.

Moral of the story listen.. to commands and comply and these types will stay alive.

"These types"?

Yep these.. those types! The types that don't listen and comply to the orders being given by law enforcement to John Q Public.

She did nothing wrong. He thought he was complying. Blaming "their type" isn't really much help.

The real issue are policies and procedures. And some people will fight tooth and nail to make the policies and procedures holy and sacrosanct and unchangeable.

(06-21-2017 12:56 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  in the video there seemed to already have been an exchange.

The conclusion of this can only be that Castille actually was pulling a gun out of his pocket.

That's not a legit point, because we all know that didn't happen.

(06-21-2017 01:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:56 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  in the video there seemed to already have been an exchange.

The conclusion of this can only be that Castille actually was pulling a gun out of his pocket.

That's not a legit point, because we all know that didn't happen.

It read more like a question, than a statement, to me.

(06-21-2017 12:44 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  I read somewhere early on that he was going for the wallet because he had a concealed carry card in it. Not sure if accurate but would fit with the scenario.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

That makes some sense. It appeared he had already given the officer his license.

(06-21-2017 01:14 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:54 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:49 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:47 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 10:35 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  She did nothing wrong.

She got out of the situation exactly what she put into it... nothing!

She was looking for a gotcha moment against the PO-PO and get her some 15 minutes of fame.

Moral of the story listen.. to commands and comply and these types will stay alive.

"These types"?

Yep these.. those types! The types that don't listen and comply to the orders being given by law enforcement to John Q Public.

She did nothing wrong. He thought he was complying. Blaming "their type" isn't really much help.

The real issue are policies and procedures. And some people will fight tooth and nail to make the policies and procedures holy and sacrosanct and unchangeable.

What with you being the police tactics expert and all, what should Yanez have done differently?

(06-21-2017 12:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 11:56 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  I know what I was trained on in my basic course and in every single in-service course I took on officer survival since and it's what I have been trying to tell you

Humans are stubborn. They believe what they've already decided they're going to believe, and no one is going to change their mind.

Yes, anyone who has been involved in an exchange with you when you are wrong knows that.


Guide for dealing with officer involved shooting put out by the International Association of Police Chiefs in conjunction with the United States Dept. of Justice.
http://www.theiacp.org/portals/0/documen...ved_v8.pdf

Quote:The safety and well-being of the involved officer(s) and innocent bystanders is the first priority. On-scene personnel should ensure that the subject is not a threat, to include disarming, handcuffing, or otherwise securing the person. An officer should never assume that because a subject has been shot or otherwise incapacitated, he or she is unable to take aggressive action

(06-21-2017 05:53 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 01:14 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:54 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:49 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 12:47 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  She got out of the situation exactly what she put into it... nothing!

She was looking for a gotcha moment against the PO-PO and get her some 15 minutes of fame.

Moral of the story listen.. to commands and comply and these types will stay alive.

"These types"?

Yep these.. those types! The types that don't listen and comply to the orders being given by law enforcement to John Q Public.

She did nothing wrong. He thought he was complying. Blaming "their type" isn't really much help.

The real issue are policies and procedures. And some people will fight tooth and nail to make the policies and procedures holy and sacrosanct and unchangeable.

What with you being the police tactics expert and all, what should Yanez have done differently?

The result of a police encounter should not ever be the death of an innocent citizen because of a communication error or "moving funny".

It requires no expert knowledge whatsoever to recognize that that is a failure. Much in the same way a crumpled plane full of bodies does not require an aeronautical engineer to point out that it is not an ideal situation.


The actual 'experts' should pull their heads out and start working the problem rather than insisting there isn't one. We taxpayers pay these "experts" to actually fix these problems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

(06-16-2017 03:42 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The charges were stupid. The prosecution was trying to convince people that, although clearly Castille had his gun out and on his lap or in his hand at the time of the shooting, they said there should have been no way for the officer to know that.

Thats actually incorrect. In the new video, the officer clearly tells him not to pull out his gun. If he had it out and it was on his lap, why would he even say that?

Sent from my SM-T357T using CSNbbs mobile app

(06-21-2017 06:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(06-16-2017 03:42 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The charges were stupid. The prosecution was trying to convince people that, although clearly Castille had his gun out and on his lap or in his hand at the time of the shooting, they said there should have been no way for the officer to know that.

Thats actually incorrect. In the new video, the officer clearly tells him not to pull out his gun. If he had it out and it was on his lap, why would he even say that?

The reporting hasn't always been great on this incident but most of the reporting said it wasn't out. The initial reports said he was reaching for wallet/CCW card.

I've been wondering what the CCW training is like up there. Do they teach potential CCW holders how to deal with a traffic stop? What do they tell them to do? If there was training for the CCW did Castile follow the instruction in that class? How long ago did he have his training? Do they have a refresher training when you renew?

(06-21-2017 09:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:06 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  The threat isn't totally eliminated until they are disarmed and secured. Period.

The threat was totally eliminated and secured after the first shot. Beyond doubt totally eliminated and secured after the seven shots.

It would've looked better if he tried to do more to help the situation, after those shots were fired.

So now you're a ballistics expert and were on the scene as it happened, witnessed the shooting, and you were able to determine in the midst of a hail of bullets that took all of 3-4 seconds to discharge that the first one incapacitated the poor guy. Is there anything you can't do?

(06-21-2017 09:37 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:06 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  The threat isn't totally eliminated until they are disarmed and secured. Period.

The threat was totally eliminated and secured after the first shot. Beyond doubt totally eliminated and secured after the seven shots.

It would've looked better if he tried to do more to help the situation, after those shots were fired.

I'm sorry.....I must have missed it. How much law enforcement experience do you have again? What about emergency trauma experience?

1Sgt Bradley Kasal, USMC, was wounded seven times by an insurgent's machine gun, a much more powerful weapon than any sidearm carried by law enforcement today, AND by 43 pieces of shrapnel from a grenade and still killed insurgents. Here's a picture of him being carried out of the house he was wounded in between 45 minutes to an hour AFTER he was wounded and BEFORE receiving any medical attention.


Notice what's in his hand? He's been shot seven times, hit with 43 pieces of shrapnel, lost over half of his total volume of blood while bleeding for close to an hour and still could put three in your center mass if he had to.

That is one bad mo-effer.

(06-21-2017 07:04 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:37 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 09:06 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  The threat isn't totally eliminated until they are disarmed and secured. Period.

The threat was totally eliminated and secured after the first shot. Beyond doubt totally eliminated and secured after the seven shots.

It would've looked better if he tried to do more to help the situation, after those shots were fired.

I'm sorry.....I must have missed it. How much law enforcement experience do you have again? What about emergency trauma experience?

1Sgt Bradley Kasal, USMC, was wounded seven times by an insurgent's machine gun, a much more powerful weapon than any sidearm carried by law enforcement today, AND by 43 pieces of shrapnel from a grenade and still killed insurgents. Here's a picture of him being carried out of the house he was wounded in between 45 minutes to an hour AFTER he was wounded and BEFORE receiving any medical attention.


Notice what's in his hand? He's been shot seven times, hit with 43 pieces of shrapnel, lost over half of his total volume of blood while bleeding for close to an hour and still could put three in your center mass if he had to.

That is one bad mo-effer.

Indeed he is. He's currently the SGT Major of the I Marine Expeditionary Force.

(06-21-2017 06:03 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Guide for dealing with officer involved shooting put out by the International Association of Police Chiefs in conjunction with the United States Dept. of Justice.
http://www.theiacp.org/portals/0/documen...ved_v8.pdf

Quote:The safety and well-being of the involved officer(s) and innocent bystanders is the first priority. On-scene personnel should ensure that the subject is not a threat, to include disarming, handcuffing, or otherwise securing the person. An officer should never assume that because a subject has been shot or otherwise incapacitated, he or she is unable to take aggressive action

Moved past the issue of him helping Castille, long ago. It was a side issue.

(06-21-2017 07:03 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  Is there anything you can't do?

As far as you're concerned, no.

To perhaps help bring this thread to a conclusion, let me offer one last hypothetical scenario. I'd be curious to know what people think about it.


What if Castille simply decided to withhold the information that he was licensed by the state to carry a firearm?? What might have happened?

My guess, one of two things:

1) Yanez quickly realizes that Castille wasn't one of the guys who robbed the convenience store, and lets him go with a warning or perhaps citation for the tail light
2) Yanez asks to search the vehicle. At that point, anything realistically could happen, and might lead to the same ending.

But I do think this simple change in the story, could have easily saved Castille's life.

He volunteered the information, with good intention. And he died because of that.

(06-21-2017 09:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  To perhaps help bring this thread to a conclusion, let me offer one last hypothetical scenario. I'd be curious to know what people think about it.


What if Castille simply decided to withhold the information that he was licensed by the state to carry a firearm?? What might have happened?

My guess, one of two things:

1) Yanez quickly realizes that Castille wasn't one of the guys who robbed the convenience store, and lets him go with a warning or perhaps citation for the tail light
2) Yanez asks to search the vehicle. At that point, anything realistically could happen, and might lead to the same ending.

But I do think this simple change in the story, could have easily saved Castille's life.

He volunteered the information, with good intention. And he died because of that.

He did not die because he volunteered the information. He died because Yanez and he has a miscommunication after that.

To say "if he didn't volunteer that if he would be alive is like saying if he went a different way he'd be a live.

Both are technically true, but neither the direction he drove or him telling Yanez about the gun was causal in his death.

I disagree. If he hadn't told Yanez that he had a gun in his pocket, then none of this might have even happened.

Not saying that's what I wish would've happened. I think it's correct to volunteer that info to the officer, but in this case I say it cost him his life. Feel free to disagree ... but I'd appreciate an actual argument why, not just stating it's wrong.

(06-21-2017 06:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(06-16-2017 03:42 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The charges were stupid. The prosecution was trying to convince people that, although clearly Castille had his gun out and on his lap or in his hand at the time of the shooting, they said there should have been no way for the officer to know that.

Thats actually incorrect. In the new video, the officer clearly tells him not to pull out his gun. If he had it out and it was on his lap, why would he even say that?

Sent from my SM-T357T using CSNbbs mobile app

And yet it is totally correct.