(03-13-2017 12:29 PM)Chappy Wrote:  Actually, this could help people with disabilities. The machine might flip the burgers, but somebody still has to load the machine with beef, put on the toppings and wrap the burgers.

All of those things can be replaced by machines.

A refrigerated burger holder can drop a Pattie in the same spot 1000s of times without adjustment. A camera lets it know if a space is open on the grill and can move the arm that the Pattie slides down to any place over the grill. A inferred sensor can tell when it gets to the right temp to be flipped and a robot can do that also.

Gets done it goes down the line and another machine drops the correct amount of lettuce and another drops the correct amount of catsup and mustard.

There are even machines that can fold a wrapper and pick the finished burger up and drop it down so the counter person can put it in a bag.

Think about how much things like snack crackers would cost or potato chips if ever step wasn't don't by machines. The show "How it is made" is very informing and mind blowing on what can be done by a machine.

Should be a lot of unskilled labor jobs soon to replace any of these fast food jobs lost to machines. Let one of these pampered kids go carry block all day

Employer tells the robotic after a messed up on orders? "You're fire."

Have you noticed all the failures of products lately? All the failures on automobiles lately? All of them are being made by robots mostly. They do not have the right hand-eye co-ordination. You don't want a robot to operate on you if they go out, or get hacked into.

(03-14-2017 09:09 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Employer tells the robotic after a messed up on orders? "You're fire."

Have you noticed all the failures of products lately? All the failures on automobiles lately? All of them are being made by robots mostly. They do not have the right hand-eye co-ordination. You don't want a robot to operate on you if they go out, or get hacked into.

uh, not really. Want to share a link about that?

Automation, Robots, and Job Losses Could Make Universal Income a Reality

http://fortune.com/2017/05/24/automation...al-income/

(03-11-2017 02:17 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Getting a high wage for performing an unskilled task makes them lazy.

I disagree. I think a lazy person becomes a lazy person well before their first job, and would perform poorly/slowly in whatever job they were able to obtain.

(05-29-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(03-11-2017 02:17 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Getting a high wage for performing an unskilled task makes them lazy.

I disagree. I think a lazy person becomes a lazy person well before their first job, and would perform poorly/slowly in whatever job he/she was able to obtain.

Correct.

Which is why you dont need to give a high wage to a unskilled job position. Anyone who has motivation and is not lazy will not be at minimum wage for long.

My daughter started at $8 an hour decorating cakes and cupcakes. After 6 months, she found another position, but the company wanted to keep her and offered her $10.50. After another year, they offered her $13 per hour and a $500 bonus to stay with them.

She now serves tables at a high end restaurant after moving up through some smaller restaurants, and is making serious bank. Which is why she would appreciate yo uugys staying away from her tips.

It sounds like she has certainly earned it! Yes, I do understand the potential for tip income to be reduced by increasing minimum wages.

I only wanted to disagree that an easy job with high minimum wage would convert a hard worker into a lazy worker.

I understand the argument that if you remove incentive to work hard, all workers would naturally descend into laziness. But I disagree that it is so simple.

(05-29-2017 11:59 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  It sounds like she has certainly earned it! Yes, I do understand the potential for tip income to be reduced by increasing minimum wages.

I only wanted to disagree that an easy job with high minimum wage would convert a hard worker into a lazy worker.

I understand the argument that if you remove incentive to work hard, all workers would naturally descend into laziness. But I disagree that it is so simple.

Actually, I have seen it proven that a higher minimum wage converted hard workers into lazy ones. I went to Aruba two years straight. 2003 & 2004. In 2003, servers worked on tips. Food and drinks were reasonable, and these guys busted their butts going up and down the beach serving people. Very good service, and being american, they fought over me as a customer because americans tip, wheras europeans and asians do not.

Then in 2004 they decided to charge more for the food and drinks to give servers a better guaranteed income. You were lucky if you ever got one of the dipsh*ts to come your way. When they did, you might see your drink within the next hour or so. It was pathetic. So yes, giving the people a higher guaranteed income will make them lazy.

(05-29-2017 01:16 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 11:59 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  It sounds like she has certainly earned it! Yes, I do understand the potential for tip income to be reduced by increasing minimum wages.

I only wanted to disagree that an easy job with high minimum wage would convert a hard worker into a lazy worker.

I understand the argument that if you remove incentive to work hard, all workers would naturally descend into laziness. But I disagree that it is so simple.

Actually, I have seen it proven that a higher minimum wage converted hard workers into lazy ones. I went to Aruba two years straight. 2003 & 2004. In 2003, servers worked on tips. Food and drinks were reasonable, and these guys busted their butts going up and down the beach serving people. Very good service, and being american, they fought over me as a customer because americans tip, wheras europeans and asians do not.

Then in 2004 they decided to charge more for the food and drinks to give servers a better guaranteed income. You were lucky if you ever got one of the dipsh*ts to come your way. When they did, you might see your drink within the next hour or so. It was pathetic. So yes, giving the people a higher guaranteed income will make them lazy.

Look a professional athletics...it used to be if you did not play you did not get paid. While that led to problems on the other end of the spectrum, IE guys working hurt, the attitude of the players back then as a whole was much much better.

How are y'all going to feel about the inevitable universal basic income?

(03-11-2017 12:41 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  It seems like you could build a broiler/conveyor for much less than $30K. I guess the customers could put the burgers on and take them off self-service.

These machines also put on toppings, if they are the ones I've seen..

They get an order for a cheeseburger with onions and extra pickles... out comes the whole burger.

(05-29-2017 01:16 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  I went to Aruba two years straight. 2003 & 2004. In 2003, servers worked on tips. Food and drinks were reasonable, and these guys busted their butts going up and down the beach serving people. Very good service, and being american, they fought over me as a customer because americans tip, wheras europeans and asians do not.

Then in 2004 they decided to charge more for the food and drinks to give servers a better guaranteed income. You were lucky if you ever got one of the dipsh*ts to come your way. When they did, you might see your drink within the next hour or so. It was pathetic. So yes, giving the people a higher guaranteed income will make them lazy.

Your experience does not prove that it converted the same hard working workers in 2003 into lazy workers in 2004, because it could have been different workers a year later who were already lazy to begin with.

A hard working worker is hard working by their nature. They will find a way to motivate themselves, regardless of conditions.

(05-30-2017 01:27 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 01:16 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  I went to Aruba two years straight. 2003 & 2004. In 2003, servers worked on tips. Food and drinks were reasonable, and these guys busted their butts going up and down the beach serving people. Very good service, and being american, they fought over me as a customer because americans tip, wheras europeans and asians do not.

Then in 2004 they decided to charge more for the food and drinks to give servers a better guaranteed income. You were lucky if you ever got one of the dipsh*ts to come your way. When they did, you might see your drink within the next hour or so. It was pathetic. So yes, giving the people a higher guaranteed income will make them lazy.

Your experience does not prove that it converted the same hard working workers in 2003 into lazy workers in 2004, because it could have been different workers a year later who were already lazy to begin with.

A hard working worker is hard working by their nature. They will find a way to motivate themselves, regardless of conditions.

Funny, how not a damned one of them seemed to be more hard working than those prior to guaranteed pay. Why was that?

(03-12-2017 08:08 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  This is just another example automation taking jobs in the war on labor. I get that no one wants to pay $15 an hour for a burger flipper. But what happens when all the jobs are gone? Amazon Go is another example of this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmMk1Myrxc ). Wait until they source it out to Wal-Mart.

no thanks.

(05-30-2017 01:29 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Funny, how not a damned one of them seemed to be more hard working than those prior to guaranteed pay. Why was that?

You can't assume the thing you're trying to prove.


There are always going to be exceptions to the rule. Is it possible that a person who was hard working can become lazy, due to x,y,z changes in circumstance? Yes, it is possible.

But as a general rule, I disagree.

(05-30-2017 01:35 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(05-30-2017 01:29 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Funny, how not a damned one of them seemed to be more hard working than those prior to guaranteed pay. Why was that?

You can't assume the thing you're trying to prove.


There are always going to be exceptions to the rule. Is it possible that a person who was hard working can become lazy, due to x,y,z changes in circumstance? Yes, it is possible.

But as a general rule, I disagree.

If you disagree as a general rule, then you should be able to present actual cases where they did what I said Aruba did, and service got better and workers didnt get lazier.

I should have plenty of examples for you, very soon. Mpls is at the public input stage of increasing minimum wage for any workers who work in the city to $15/hr, with no exception for tips.

I have a hard time believing that the level of service throughout the entire city is going to take a step change for the worse.


Repubs, who hold the majority in both houses of the MN State Gov, tried to pass language to prevent local governments from being able to do such things, but it looks like that language lost out in the budget negotiation with the Dem governor.

(05-30-2017 01:41 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that the level of service throughout the entire city is going to take a step change for the worse.

It will put a leash on job creation and you will see more of the entry level jobs disappear... This is how young people get to 21 with no job soft skills.

(03-12-2017 11:04 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(03-12-2017 09:14 AM)LeFlâneur Wrote:  

(03-12-2017 08:08 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  This is just another example automation taking jobs in the war on labor. I get that no one wants to pay $15 an hour for a burger flipper. But what happens when all the jobs are gone? Amazon Go is another example of this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmMk1Myrxc ). Wait until they source it out to Wal-Mart.

The luddites were asking that same question 200 years ago.

This isn't the same. Automation will soon touch almost every aspect of our lives. It won't be just low skilled labor that starts to go away. Plenty of white collar jobs will see this trend. Autonomous vehicles will do the shipping. Even if drivers are still required to be in vehicles. How much will they need to be paid. If they aren't doing the driving?

The IBM thing, Watson, can answer legal questions at a 80% accuracy rate compared to live lawyers answering at under 60% accuracy. And for free I believe. Lawyers beware.

(03-13-2017 04:18 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(03-13-2017 12:29 PM)Chappy Wrote:  Actually, this could help people with disabilities. The machine might flip the burgers, but somebody still has to load the machine with beef, put on the toppings and wrap the burgers.

All of those things can be replaced by machines.

A refrigerated burger holder can drop a Pattie in the same spot 1000s of times without adjustment. A camera lets it know if a space is open on the grill and can move the arm that the Pattie slides down to any place over the grill. A inferred sensor can tell when it gets to the right temp to be flipped and a robot can do that also.

Gets done it goes down the line and another machine drops the correct amount of lettuce and another drops the correct amount of catsup and mustard.

There are even machines that can fold a wrapper and pick the finished burger up and drop it down so the counter person can put it in a bag.

Think about how much things like snack crackers would cost or potato chips if ever step wasn't don't by machines. The show "How it is made" is very informing and mind blowing on what can be done by a machine.

Should be a lot of unskilled labor jobs soon to replace any of these fast food jobs lost to machines. Let one of these pampered kids go carry block all day

My first job was carrying hods full of bricks, getting them up scaffolds and mixing mortar. Made a man-boy out of me.