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If 18 is the magic number.......
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ken d Online
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Post: #21
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-15-2017 01:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Is 18 the magic number? This entire question reveals the borderline autism people in this forum suffer, needing to force symmetry into asymmetric order. There is nothing new in this obsession, and it is ancient applying even to the order of heaven.

In the ancient days the focus on magic numbers on irregular systems centered around the calendar. There was a concept of the perfect calendar, referred to as the perfect Mesopotamian calendar. 365 days plus the occasional leap day to keep the seasons from getting awry led to the composition of various calendars. One such divided the year into 4 sets of 3 months with 30 days in each, with a "leap" day for each solstice, 91 days in each 3 month set, every 1st month of each quarter started on the same day. The 365th was either dispensed with or was a non counting day (I think they actually had a leap week every 5 to 6 years to keep the week and month starting on the same day).

I mention this because such a "perfect" calendar, as must be held in the heavens, makes an appearance in the book of revelation, where 42 months are referred to as 1260 days; all those unseemly extra days vanishing. It of course is a Matrix like dreamscape, just as 18 team conferences with (I guess) Notre Dame being that unseemly 65th.

The real calendar was the one the Romans tinkered with, building on the existing structure and just making the damn thing work with extra days on some months, and February bring irregular. Ever practical and working with the structure as it exists. This Roman effort survives to this day, the perfect calendars all never held.

Conferences are irregular and messy in organization because they are part of the real world. Beauty is not in artificial symmetry, but in the ranging and overlapping fractal world, with patterns of unpredictable randomness. Only madmen demand perfect order. Or those of us with borderline autism.

Until somebody builds a border wall, some of us will keep finding a way to cross it.
05-15-2017 01:35 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-15-2017 09:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-14-2017 04:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(05-14-2017 03:57 PM)ken d Wrote:  PAC

Pacific Division: Washington, Oregon, Cal, Stanford, USC, UCLA, Arizona, Arizona St, Utah

Prairie Division: Texas, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, OK State, Kansas, Kansas St, Colorado, TCU, Iowa St

B1G

Legends: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois, Penn St, Ohio St, Michigan, Michigan St

Leaders: Florida St, Miami, Virginia, UNC, Duke, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Pitt, Clemson

SEC

West: Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss, Miss St, LSU, Arkansas, Texas A&M, Missouri, Vanderbilt

East: Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, West Virginia, Louisville, NC State, Virginia Tech

8 team playoff, 6 division champs plus best two non-champs at-large. 13 game regular season beginning in Week Zero.

Going back to "Legends and leaders" is even funnier than Big Easters Miami and Pitt going to the Big 10!

That's what I was going for. 04-cheers

I know you were Ken, that's why I love ya bro
05-15-2017 04:24 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-15-2017 01:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Is 18 the magic number? This entire question reveals the borderline autism people in this forum suffer, needing to force symmetry into asymmetric order. There is nothing new in this obsession, and it is ancient, applying even to the order of heaven.

In the ancient days the focus on magic numbers on irregular systems centered around the calendar. There was a concept of the perfect calendar, referred to as the perfect Mesopotamian calendar. 365 days plus the occasional leap day to keep the seasons from getting awry led to the composition of various calendars. One such divided the year into 4 sets of 3 months with 30 days in each, with a "leap" day for each solstice, 91 days in each 3 month set, every 1st month of each quarter started on the same day. The 365th was either dispensed with or was a non counting day (I think they actually had a leap week every 5 to 6 years to keep the week and month starting on the same day).

I mention this because such a "perfect" calendar, as must be held in the heavens, makes an appearance in the book of revelation, where 42 months are referred to as 1260 days; all those unseemly extra days vanishing. It of course is a Matrix like dreamscape, just as 18 team conferences with (I guess) Notre Dame being that unseemly 65th.

The real calendar was the one the Romans tinkered with, building on the existing structure and just making the damn thing work with extra days on some months, and February being irregular. Ever practical and working with the structure as it exists. This Roman effort survives to this day, the perfect calendars all never held.

Conferences are irregular and messy in organization because they are part of the real world. Beauty is not in artificial symmetry, but in the ranging and overlapping fractal world, with patterns of unpredictable randomness. Only madmen demand perfect order. Or those of us with borderline autism.

I think your comparisons are strained since the former is fixed by the laws of physics while college athletics is an arbitrary system defined by rules that hve no basis in the natural world. College football is a professional sport. Any connection to amateurism has been severed a long time ago. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect round numbers for organizational purposes. To put it kindly, most of your writing was verbal masturbation to justify why the PAC12 wrinkles their noses at expanding past 12.
05-15-2017 10:33 PM
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4x4hokies Offline
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Post: #24
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
You are thinking too small at 18.

Why not have one "conference",'league", or "division".

The one entity divides, schedules, and chooses champions however it chooses whichever way makes sense for each sport.
05-15-2017 10:50 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #25
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-13-2017 04:51 PM)XLance Wrote:  Currrently the P5 consists of 65 teams . If 18 is the magic number where do the other 7 come from?
Since the Big 12 went through the process last year, we can assume that their findings would hold up for the rest of the new P4.
IIRC their top 4 were (in no particular order) were UConn, Houston, Cincinnati and BYU .
So which three fill out the top 72 and which conference do the little 7 go to?

Are there enough top level teams for all 4 P leagues to get to 18 (if the Big 12 goes away)?

~8 is a better number than 18.
05-16-2017 07:53 AM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #26
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-16-2017 07:53 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(05-13-2017 04:51 PM)XLance Wrote:  Currrently the P5 consists of 65 teams . If 18 is the magic number where do the other 7 come from?
Since the Big 12 went through the process last year, we can assume that their findings would hold up for the rest of the new P4.
IIRC their top 4 were (in no particular order) were UConn, Houston, Cincinnati and BYU .
So which three fill out the top 72 and which conference do the little 7 go to?

Are there enough top level teams for all 4 P leagues to get to 18 (if the Big 12 goes away)?

~8 is a better number than 18.

I remember thinking that 9 (ACC configuration pre-2003) was the best configuration. Silly me, I was only thinking in terms of playing everyone in football and double round-robin in basketball. Then the profitability of the whole thing really rained on my parade.
05-16-2017 08:03 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #27
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-16-2017 08:03 AM)megadrone Wrote:  
(05-16-2017 07:53 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(05-13-2017 04:51 PM)XLance Wrote:  Currrently the P5 consists of 65 teams . If 18 is the magic number where do the other 7 come from?
Since the Big 12 went through the process last year, we can assume that their findings would hold up for the rest of the new P4.
IIRC their top 4 were (in no particular order) were UConn, Houston, Cincinnati and BYU .
So which three fill out the top 72 and which conference do the little 7 go to?

Are there enough top level teams for all 4 P leagues to get to 18 (if the Big 12 goes away)?

~8 is a better number than 18.

I remember thinking that 9 (ACC configuration pre-2003) was the best configuration. Silly me, I was only thinking in terms of playing everyone in football and double round-robin in basketball. Then the profitability of the whole thing really rained on my parade.

I still think it is. To me, 18 is just two 9-team conferences that share a media partner.
05-16-2017 08:39 AM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #28
If 18 is the magic number.......
Is 22 better than 18 ?,
05-16-2017 09:31 AM
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AntiG Offline
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Post: #29
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-14-2017 02:32 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Big 10's Delany was thinking of going to 22 teams.

Florida State
Clemson
North Carolina
Virginia
Kansas
Notre Dame
Oklahoma
Texas

That would give them up to 22 teams.

Delany wanted 24, you left out Georgia Tech and Duke. Ga Tech was one of his top targets due to being located in Atlanta, which is one of the top hubs for Big Ten alumni.
05-16-2017 09:52 AM
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YNot Online
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Post: #30
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(05-16-2017 09:52 AM)AntiG Wrote:  
(05-14-2017 02:32 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Big 10's Delany was thinking of going to 22 teams.

Florida State
Clemson
North Carolina
Virginia
Kansas
Notre Dame
Oklahoma
Texas

That would give them up to 22 teams.

Delany wanted 24, you left out Georgia Tech and Duke. Ga Tech was one of his top targets due to being located in Atlanta, which is one of the top hubs for Big Ten alumni.

The SEC would have had something to say about it, though. Perhaps grabbing FSU and Clemson or Texas and Oklahoma and Virginia Tech and NC State. Louisville, WVU, Pitt, BC, Syracuse, and Miami might have been in the mix as well.

That would put the SEC at 20-24 teams and the B1G at 20-24 teams. Then, divide up the PAC and you have your AFC and NFC-like alignment, each with a couple of marquee bowl games that spill into the SEC-B1G national championship.
05-16-2017 10:50 AM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #31
If 18 is the magic number.......
That's great and all, but sec vs BIG10 is NOT a national championship, it mybe a championship but it's not a NC. There's a whole lot more America out there that just those two conferences
05-16-2017 11:47 AM
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Post: #32
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
If it's 18 that we are eventually going to then IMO it should be 3 divisions of 6 teams per conference. You would play the 5 other teams in your division and then 2 from each of the other divisions in your conference(on a rotating basis) for a total of 9 games.

If they wanted to you could have a mini playoff with in your own conference with the 3 division winners and the next highest ranked team based on the poles as a wildcard.

The winner of your conference playoff would move on to play in the national championship playoff bracket where you would have 1 team from each of the P4.

This is one way of keeping the entire country interested and would essentially be a 16 team playoff.

Another benefit of this is that the P4 could play each other every year, I already talked about the 9 game conference schedule, add 3 OOC games to make it 12. No more cupcakes for anyone, if you are a team in the SEC you have 9 conference games and 1 against a B1G school, 1 against an ACC school and 1 against a PAC school.
05-16-2017 04:23 PM
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Post: #33
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
I thought I'd rather resurrect a thread than start a new one on the same subject. There's another titled "18. The new 16." from 2015, that I decided to leave alone.



If you can get a semi-final round out of the NCAA, then 12 = 18 = 24. Divisions of 6 REALLY are ideal. 5 permanent opponents (maybe 6 if necessary) is really enough. Rotate the rest to stay fresh for the fans. The thinking here is, that it's easier to expand than boot someone.

OU, UT, KU, & WVU would then fit perfectly into the SEC. If the B1G wanted to do it, swap WVU with Mizzou and you have a similar, viable 'fit'. I can't see the ACC or PAC12 being strong enough to do this, presently. None of them want to dip into the G5, unless forced.

In the G5, C-USA could absorb the Sunbelt to balloon to 24, consolidate offices, TV markets, control FBS membership from the bottom, tighten geographically with political exceptions, and endure expansion shifts above it better. The AAC, MWC, and MAC are content at 12 members and will be reactive, not proactive in the next expansion round.
Marshall
WKU
MTSU
ODU
Charlotte
Appy State

Coastal Carolina
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
South Alabama
Troy
ULaMo

FIU
FAU
UAB
USM
La Tech
ULaLa

Ark State
Rice
UNT
UTSA
UTEP
Texas State

that's one viable setup. You could conceivably expand each division all the way to 9, though that's almost a hard limit.
01-19-2019 12:43 PM
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Post: #34
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
I posted this alignment in a different thread and I like it. It’s not viable, though.

PAC
North: Washington, Washington St, Oregon, Oregon St, Utah, Colorado
West: California, Stanford, USC UCLA, Arizona, Arizona St
East: Texas Tech, Oklahoma St, Kansas, Kansas St, Missouri, Iowa St

B1G
West: Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern
North: Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, Penn St
East: Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech

SEC
West: Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Arkansas, LSU, Vanderbilt
South: Mississippi, Mississippi St, Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Kentucky
East: Florida, Florida St, Georgia, South Carolina, Clemson, North Carolina St

ACC
East: Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston Collegr, Miami
Atlantic: Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Temple, Connecticut, Army, Navy
Coastal: Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, East Carolina, Central Florida, South Florida

MWC
West: Hawaii, San Diego St, Fresno St, Nevada, UNLV, Boise St
Mountain: BYU, Utah St, Wyoming, Colorado St, Air Force, New Mexico
South: Tulsa, TCU, SMU, Baylor, Houston, Tulane

SBC
West: New Mexico St, UTEP, UTSA, North Texas, Rice, Louisiana Tech
South: Arkansas St, UL Lafayette, Southern Miss, UAB, South Alabama, Troy
East: Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Georgia Southern, Georgia St, Coastal Carolina, Appalachian St

MAC
West: Northern Illinois, Ball St, Western Michigan, Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Toledo
North: Bowling Green St, Miami OH, Akron, Kent St, Buffalo, Massachusetts
South: Ohio, Marshall, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee St, Old Dominion, Charlotte

Out: San Jose St, Texas St, UL Monroe, Liberty
01-19-2019 03:13 PM
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Post: #35
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
If 18 were the magic number (and it probably isn't unless the PAC decides to draft 6 of the Big 12) then it might look more like this:

Big 10:
East: Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Virginia

Central: Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, Purdue

West: Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Northwestern, Wisconsin


SEC:
East: Auburn, Clemson, Florida, Georgia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech

Central: Alabama, Florida State, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

West: Arkansas, Louisiana State, Mississippi, Mississippi State, Missouri, Texas A&M


PAC:
East: Iowa State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas Tech

North: California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Washington, Washington State

South: Arizona, Arizona State, Cal Los Angeles, Colorado, Southern Cal, Utah


NEW P:

East: Boston College, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

South: East Carolina, Louisville, Memphis, Miami, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest

West: Central Florida, Baylor, Houston, Kansas State, South Florida, T.C.U.
01-19-2019 03:56 PM
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Post: #36
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
18 is an awkward number for both the Big Ten and the SEC in terms of creating divisions of 9. Maybe 3 divisions of 6.
01-19-2019 06:50 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #37
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(01-19-2019 06:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  18 is an awkward number for both the Big Ten and the SEC in terms of creating divisions of 9. Maybe 3 divisions of 6.

I believe that's what I did in the post just above this one. Each conference would then have 3 division champs, could add their best at large to their semis, and their winner would move on to the National Semi Finals.
01-19-2019 07:21 PM
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toddjnsn Offline
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Post: #38
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
Having more than 14 teams in a conference is Not a viable option. Unless they'd add games -- which they won't. Stripping OOC games isn't an option -- especially when some limit it to 3. Having 9 other games against 15 other teams dwindles it too much. Going 18? Holy cow. 9 other games against 17 other teams? You're basically only covering HALF the conference.

Oh, have 3 divisions and a playoff within (3+best non-div champ)? Not going to fly, although it could be part of a playoff process -- but still not likely going to fly for a mere 8-team playoff, even reducing the conferences to P4-G3 each with 18 teams -- although it makes it worth considering, but it's a far-out dream not really going to happen.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2019 08:28 PM by toddjnsn.)
01-19-2019 08:15 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #39
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
(01-19-2019 08:15 PM)toddjnsn Wrote:  Having more than 14 teams in a conference is Not a viable option. Unless they'd add games -- which they won't. Stripping OOC games isn't an option -- especially when some limit it to 3. Having 9 other games against 15 other teams dwindles it too much. Going 18? Holy cow. 9 other games against 17 other teams? You're basically only covering HALF the conference.

Oh, have 3 divisions and a playoff within (3+best non-div champ)? Not going to fly, although it could be part of a playoff process -- but still not likely going to fly for a mere 8-team playoff, even reducing the conferences to P4-G3 each with 18 teams -- although it makes it worth considering, but it's a far-out dream not really going to happen.

And what crystal ball is it that you glean this position from? The thread is about 18 schools in a conference. Times are slow so why not play? Besides going divisionless is the remedy that accommodates any number. The need for leverage when the bubble goes flat on revenue will drive larger conferences.

But other than that if you disagree with a threads premise then don't post in it. And the last time I checked nobody here has the authority to say this or that will or won't fly. The presidents of the colleges will decide that.
01-19-2019 08:37 PM
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Post: #40
RE: If 18 is the magic number.......
If you add 7 to the 65 to get 4X18 (or 6X12), it really depends on how you split things up as to who gets added to the club.

1. BYU is the most obvious. But they have political issues, so the Big 12 may be the only one who would take them.
2. UConn is the next most obvious and probably makes it.
3. Houston is next, but it depends on who are the surviving conferences and who needs to fill their roster. They probably don't get into the Big 10 or SEC.
4. Cincinnati is probably next and probably makes it.

The other top 7 would be Temple, USF and UCF. Tulane would be #8.

But if the needs are west, then Colorado St., UNLV and San Diego St. might get the call, in roughly that order. Boise doesn't pass the power conference academic smell test even if their football program does. Same test would knock out Memphis and ECU, both of which are very competitive otherwise. SMU passes a lot of the tests, but wouldn't fit the Big 10, ACC or SEC, aren't needed in the Big 12 and are probably not enough of a positive to put them ahead of other western schools with the Pac 12.
01-20-2019 12:49 AM
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