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Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-08-2017 09:44 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:42 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:38 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I can't even believe that this is still a thing. Are we really arguing that we should play in Greensboro, NC instead of New York City? Really? Why? Because that's what the ACC did in 1976? With all due respect, that is pretty dumb.

The ACC added schools like Syracuse at least in part to have a presence in New York. Why on earth would you then refuse to take advantage of that opportunity you worked so hard to create? Because you don't want to piss off the Ford dealers of greater Mecklenburg County or some other dumb bullshitt?

There are definitely issues but the conference is going to have to deal with but this one should not be one of them. If you want to play there every seven or eight years in deference to the tradition of the conference, I guess. However, otherwise, it should be in New York, Washington DC and Atlanta. However, it should mostly be in New York City.

Syracuse and Pitt are lucky the ACC rescued them from that second rate basketball conference and finally moved them into big time basketball.

03-lmfao 04-cheers

I was serious.
04-cheers

Now, that is funny.

With all due respect to the ACC, which has been consistently one of the leading basketball conferences throughout its history, before the recent realignment, it had become the big 2 and little 10. For instance, from 2008 to 2013, the ACC earned 70 NCAA tournament units with its 12 schools (5.8/school), of which 38 were earned by Dook or UNC. The 32 earned by the remaining members were comparable to the Mountain West, whose 9 members had earned 30 during the same period.

During the same period, the Big East earned 123 units (7.7/school). Even subtracting the 37 units earned by Louisville and Syracuse (the two biggest earners), the Big East still earned more units than the ACC, with 86.

During this period, the ACC won 2 national championships, but made only 3 Final Four appearances, 2 for UNC and 1 for Duke. The Big East also had 2 national championships, but had 7 Final Four appearances by 5 different schools.

What has happened is that the recent realignment has raised the level of play in the ACC to the level previously achieved by the old Big East. You're welcome. Thank you for rescuing our football though. 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 01:11 PM by orangefan.)
03-09-2017 11:44 AM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
Message board arguments really don't matter because the conference's position on NYC is already clear. The actual leadership of the conference and its media partners apparently disagree with the people stuck using the "because we done it this way before" argument. ...which by the way, would get you fired at a lot of places.

If MSG ever becomes available for a long-term contract, which is unlikely due to the Big East, I highly suspect the ACC would strongly consider moving the tournament there permanently. Until then, a rotation is fine. I don't mind it going through Greensboro occasionally. It is a nice complex and caters to people with small children or seniors; essentially fans not going for anything but the actual games. But the ACC has clearly been trying to become the conference of the East Coast since 2003, and it is in a heated competition with the Big Ten for that status, so strategically it likely won't be playing a majority of conference tournaments in Greensboro ever again. It's not a personal preference thing or a home court advantage thing or a disrespecting history thing, it is simply how an organization conscious of the opportunities of the industry that it operates within shapes its necessary strategies moving forward into the future.
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 12:13 PM by CrazyPaco.)
03-09-2017 12:04 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 08:27 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 08:12 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I can't even believe that this is still a thing. Are we really arguing that we should play in Greensboro, NC instead of New York City? Really? Why? Because that's what the ACC did in 1976? With all due respect, that is pretty dumb.

The ACC added schools like Syracuse at least in part to have a presence in New York. Why on earth would you then refuse to take advantage of that opportunity you worked so hard to create? Because you don't want to piss off the Ford dealers of greater Mecklenburg County or some other dumb bullshitt?

There are definitely issues but the conference is going to have to deal with but this one should not be one of them. If you want to play there every seven or eight years in deference to the tradition of the conference, I guess. However, otherwise, it should be in New York, Washington DC and Atlanta. However, it should mostly be in New York City.

Syracuse and Pitt are lucky the ACC rescued them from that second rate basketball conference and finally moved them into big time basketball.



The ACC now stretches to the Great Lakes and from Boston to Miami.

It ain't your Grandpappy's old NC based conference any longer.

That conference is dead and gone, replaced by its current configuration.

It was the ACC's choice to expand and the ACC's choice to hold the tournament in New York.

If you don't like that, direct your ire to the school presidents and the ACC offices, not the newer member schools.

You try to be nice and offer someone a helping hand when they are in a desperate situation and they want to complain that you reached out with your right hand instead of your left.04-jawdrop

You know, I've never thought of it that way. I always thought of it as a cold business partnership, but maybe I've had it wrong all along? Maybe the ACC "offered a helping hand" to struggling Pitt and Syracuse because they are just plain "nice."

Hmm, I've never thought of it quite that way. I wonder if they would continue to be so neighborly and do the right thing with regard to the conference tournament location?
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 12:21 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-09-2017 12:20 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
I think long time ACC fans just have to accept that one of the downsides of expansion is the inevitable loss of tradition. If the ACC tournament could ever return to what it once was, I'd be arguing strongly for Greensboro. But it isn't that anymore, and truth be told, hasn't been for a long time now.

Dinosaurs like myself remember the tournament as the biggest event on the mid-Atlantic social calendar and the single biggest source of revenue for league members. In the old days, virtually every school in North Carolina had televisions in their classrooms to watch the opening round games. Same with factory breakrooms and office conference rooms. Work pretty much came to a halt that day, and it might as well have been a national holiday.

Ordinary fans couldn't get ticket books for the games - they were only available to the biggest donors. So you drove to Greensboro to score tickets from fans of first round losers heading home early. Once tickets started being available because teams outside the original compact ACC footprint didn't sell all their allotment to their own fans, and the internet provided a secondary market that didn't require your physical presence at the arena, a lot of the allure went away.

That's progress, I guess. Curmudgeons like me don't have to like it, but we do need to accept it - it's not ever going back to the way it was.
03-09-2017 12:35 PM
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Pervis_Griffith Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
Boeheim is an ass.

But he's right about this.

NYC - DC - Atlanta

Final Four type cities for what is arguably, a better tournament than the big dance.
03-09-2017 12:41 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 12:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  Ordinary fans couldn't get ticket books for the games - they were only available to the biggest donors. So you drove to Greensboro to score tickets from fans of first round losers heading home early.

Ha! I used to do the same thing at Madison Square Garden for the BET back in the day.04-cheers
03-09-2017 01:01 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 01:01 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 12:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  Ordinary fans couldn't get ticket books for the games - they were only available to the biggest donors. So you drove to Greensboro to score tickets from fans of first round losers heading home early.

Ha! I used to do the same thing at Madison Square Garden for the BET back in the day.04-cheers

Me too.
03-09-2017 01:21 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 08:27 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 08:12 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I can't even believe that this is still a thing. Are we really arguing that we should play in Greensboro, NC instead of New York City? Really? Why? Because that's what the ACC did in 1976? With all due respect, that is pretty dumb.

The ACC added schools like Syracuse at least in part to have a presence in New York. Why on earth would you then refuse to take advantage of that opportunity you worked so hard to create? Because you don't want to piss off the Ford dealers of greater Mecklenburg County or some other dumb bullshitt?

There are definitely issues but the conference is going to have to deal with but this one should not be one of them. If you want to play there every seven or eight years in deference to the tradition of the conference, I guess. However, otherwise, it should be in New York, Washington DC and Atlanta. However, it should mostly be in New York City.

Syracuse and Pitt are lucky the ACC rescued them from that second rate basketball conference and finally moved them into big time basketball.



The ACC now stretches to the Great Lakes and from Boston to Miami.

It ain't your Grandpappy's old NC based conference any longer.

That conference is dead and gone, replaced by its current configuration.

It was the ACC's choice to expand and the ACC's choice to hold the tournament in New York.

If you don't like that, direct your ire to the school presidents and the ACC offices, not the newer member schools.

You try to be nice and offer someone a helping hand when they are in a desperate situation and they want to complain that you reached out with your right hand instead of your left.04-jawdrop


That ACC hand was also out for more cash from ESPN for adding new members.

It wasn't so much an act of kindness as it was an act of necessity and survival.
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 01:53 PM by TerryD.)
03-09-2017 01:52 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
I notice all those griping about Greensboro are former Big East teams. So here's a compromise .... a split ACC tournament combined with geographic divisions.


ACC Y'all
Pod 1:
Georgia Tech
Clemson
Florida State
Wake Forest

Pod 2:
NC State
Duke
UNC
UVA


ACC Yankees:
Pod 1:
Boston College
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Notre Dame

Pod 2:
Louisville
Miami
Virginia Tech
Cincinnati


ACC Y'all can rotate sites between Atlanta, Greensboro, Charlotte, and Washington DC.

ACC Yankees can rotate sites between NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, and Washington DC.

Championship game is played on the home court of the higher seeded team, making the regular season that much more valuable.
03-09-2017 02:18 PM
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green Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 12:41 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  Boeheim right about this.

Final Four type cities for what is arguably, a better tournament than the big dance.

HOW SO
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 02:32 PM by green.)
03-09-2017 02:31 PM
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Indytarheel Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
I noticed that no one addressed the article linked in Hallcity's post. I would side step it as well since it demolishes the dumb arse comments made by Boeheim. Additionally, many of you guys seem to forget how long it took the Big East to finally over take the ACC as being the number one basketball conference. Adding 20 new members to a conference and pointing to units is great. Pointing to FF's are fine as well when you can't point to championships. And, if you can only point to a sliver of time (2 maybe 3 years) as your crowning glory, you certainly need to reevaluate your definition of being the best. If it wasn't for UConn, the Big East would be a joke. All you guys do is point to that little sliver of time. Try going back beyond that point... I know, I know, not much there. 80s, you say Georgetown (1 NC '84)... I say Carolina (4 NCs '82, '93, '05, '09). You say Villanova (2NCs, '85 '16), I say NC State (1 NC since '80s in '83). You say Syracuse (1NC in '03), I say Maryland (1NC in '02). You say UConn (4NCs, '99, '04, '11, '14), I say Duke (5 NCs, '91, '92, '01, '10, '15) and of course U of L's championship for the Big East in '13.

Nothing Boeheim said made any sense and you guys know it. Now, should there be a better rotation, yes. I think it should be three year rotations of Greensboro, NYC, ATL, DC, Louisville, Charlotte and Chicago.
03-09-2017 04:01 PM
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Hokie4Skins Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
Greensboro doesn't look to be in the mix anytime soon:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-c...55878.html
03-09-2017 04:25 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 02:18 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I notice all those griping about Greensboro are former Big East teams. So here's a compromise .... a split ACC tournament combined with geographic divisions.


ACC Y'all
Pod 1:
Georgia Tech
Clemson
Florida State
Wake Forest

Pod 2:
NC State
Duke
UNC
UVA


ACC Yankees:
Pod 1:
Boston College
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Notre Dame

Pod 2:
Louisville
Miami
Virginia Tech
Cincinnati


ACC Y'all can rotate sites between Atlanta, Greensboro, Charlotte, and Washington DC.

ACC Yankees can rotate sites between NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, and Washington DC.

Championship game is played on the home court of the higher seeded team, making the regular season that much more valuable.

I like it-- of course most of the guys on this board would probably disagree. 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 04:27 PM by CliftonAve.)
03-09-2017 04:27 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 04:01 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  I noticed that no one addressed the article linked in Hallcity's post. I would side step it as well since it demolishes the dumb arse comments made by Boeheim. Additionally, many of you guys seem to forget how long it took the Big East to finally over take the ACC as being the number one basketball conference. Adding 20 new members to a conference and pointing to units is great. Pointing to FF's are fine as well when you can't point to championships. And, if you can only point to a sliver of time (2 maybe 3 years) as your crowning glory, you certainly need to reevaluate your definition of being the best. If it wasn't for UConn, the Big East would be a joke. All you guys do is point to that little sliver of time. Try going back beyond that point... I know, I know, not much there. 80s, you say Georgetown (1 NC '84)... I say Carolina (4 NCs '82, '93, '05, '09). You say Villanova (2NCs, '85 '16), I say NC State (1 NC since '80s in '83). You say Syracuse (1NC in '03), I say Maryland (1NC in '02). You say UConn (4NCs, '99, '04, '11, '14), I say Duke (5 NCs, '91, '92, '01, '10, '15) and of course U of L's championship for the Big East in '13.

Nothing Boeheim said made any sense and you guys know it. Now, should there be a better rotation, yes. I think it should be three year rotations of Greensboro, NYC, ATL, DC, Louisville, Charlotte and Chicago.

No doubt, the ACC has had a tremendous history. Also, no doubt, the Big East was constantly unstable throughout it's history. Nonetheless, in the 8 years between the 2003-2005 realignment and the 2011-13 realignment, the ACC was a two team league and the Big East was far and away the dominant conference in college basketball and it wasn't all about UConn. Syracuse and Louisville both earned more NCAA units during that period.

As my prior numbers show, take away UNC and Duke from the ACC during that period, and it looks like a high mid-major. Take away any two schools from the Big East, and it was still better than the ACC with Duke and UNC.

With respect to UConn, I would agree that during the period from around 1992 through 2005, the Big East was the two team conference -- UConn and Syracuse -- with UConn being the stronger of the two. It was suffering the same stagnation in the middle and bottom of the conference that the ACC saw prior to its recent realignment. Sending three of its weaker basketball schools to the ACC and replacing them with a group that included Louisville and Marquette completely changed the dynamic of the Big East. The ACC's recent additions now have done exactly the same thing for the ACC.

As far as Boeheim's comments, he speaks what's on his mind, and usually does so in a manner that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. He has a point though -- New York City is still the capital of college basketball, and playing there is great for marketing the conference and for recruiting. I'm sure both ESPN and the ACC want the ACC Network to clear cable systems in NY at full price. Lighting a fire under the NYC fan base about ACC basketball will go a long way to achieving that. Having said that, Greensboro has tremendous tradition and is conveniently located for many member schools. It should be part of any regular rotation of tournament sites.
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 06:25 PM by orangefan.)
03-09-2017 05:04 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
When I said the ACCT hadn't been the same for a long time, I was thinking about the late 70's when it started to lose its mystique for me.

The tournament was a major social event, but ironically it had nothing to do with social events like dinner at nice restaurants. Until 1967, restaurants in North Carolina were dry. Which means good ones were virtually non-existent. So at the tournament, you would eat between sessions at a "restaurant" (usually like a BBQ house where at least half the patrons were wearing baseball caps) filled with tournament goers from all the other teams.

After 1967 you could brown bag, bringing your own liquor into some restaurants. It wasn't until later (around 1978 I think) that you could order a mixed drink with your dinner. That was when cities like Greensboro, Charlotte and Raleigh started to get decent restaurants.

But the biggest change came in 1975, when a great team no longer had to win a three day tournament to get invited to the NCAAT. That took a huge amount of pressure off the top seeds, and changed the tournament atmosphere tremendously. Eventually, other major conferences started staging their own post season tourney. Now they are ubiquitous. But back then, for those three days, the ACC was (almost) unique.

Now, with the event spread over five days, the basketball isn't the only focus, and venues with more non-basketball activities available have the decided advantage.
03-09-2017 05:36 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 04:01 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  I noticed that no one addressed the article linked in Hallcity's post. I would side step it as well since it demolishes the dumb arse comments made by Boeheim. Additionally, many of you guys seem to forget how long it took the Big East to finally over take the ACC as being the number one basketball conference. Adding 20 new members to a conference and pointing to units is great. Pointing to FF's are fine as well when you can't point to championships. And, if you can only point to a sliver of time (2 maybe 3 years) as your crowning glory, you certainly need to reevaluate your definition of being the best. If it wasn't for UConn, the Big East would be a joke. All you guys do is point to that little sliver of time. Try going back beyond that point... I know, I know, not much there. 80s, you say Georgetown (1 NC '84)... I say Carolina (4 NCs '82, '93, '05, '09). You say Villanova (2NCs, '85 '16), I say NC State (1 NC since '80s in '83). You say Syracuse (1NC in '03), I say Maryland (1NC in '02). You say UConn (4NCs, '99, '04, '11, '14), I say Duke (5 NCs, '91, '92, '01, '10, '15) and of course U of L's championship for the Big East in '13.

Nothing Boeheim said made any sense and you guys know it. Now, should there be a better rotation, yes. I think it should be three year rotations of Greensboro, NYC, ATL, DC, Louisville, Charlotte and Chicago.

This is a cherry picked argument that overlooks the fact that the Big East started in 1980. Yes, BE fans can only point to slivers of time (80's and 00's to 2012), but the conference only lasted for ~30 years. Those slivers are most of the conference.

Also, the other half of why I think your argument is cherry picked is because nobody is arguing that Duke and UNC aren't elite. Both teams very clearly are. The knock against the ACC was that it was too heavy. A middle of the pack BE team could realistically win the NCAAT (see UConn). That wasn't true of the ACC until the raid. The ACC spent many years being a 3 school league; Duke, UNC, and a rotating flavor of the week.
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Post: #57
Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro

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Post: #58
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 05:04 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 04:01 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  I noticed that no one addressed the article linked in Hallcity's post. I would side step it as well since it demolishes the dumb arse comments made by Boeheim. Additionally, many of you guys seem to forget how long it took the Big East to finally over take the ACC as being the number one basketball conference. Adding 20 new members to a conference and pointing to units is great. Pointing to FF's are fine as well when you can't point to championships. And, if you can only point to a sliver of time (2 maybe 3 years) as your crowning glory, you certainly need to reevaluate your definition of being the best. If it wasn't for UConn, the Big East would be a joke. All you guys do is point to that little sliver of time. Try going back beyond that point... I know, I know, not much there. 80s, you say Georgetown (1 NC '84)... I say Carolina (4 NCs '82, '93, '05, '09). You say Villanova (2NCs, '85 '16), I say NC State (1 NC since '80s in '83). You say Syracuse (1NC in '03), I say Maryland (1NC in '02). You say UConn (4NCs, '99, '04, '11, '14), I say Duke (5 NCs, '91, '92, '01, '10, '15) and of course U of L's championship for the Big East in '13.

Nothing Boeheim said made any sense and you guys know it. Now, should there be a better rotation, yes. I think it should be three year rotations of Greensboro, NYC, ATL, DC, Louisville, Charlotte and Chicago.

No doubt, the ACC has had a tremendous history. Also, no doubt, the Big East was constantly unstable throughout it's history. Nonetheless, in the 8 years between the 2003-2005 realignment and the 2011-13 realignment, the ACC was a two team league and the Big East was far and away the dominant conference in college basketball and it wasn't all about UConn. Syracuse and Louisville both earned more NCAA units during that period.

As my prior numbers show, take away UNC and Duke from the ACC during that period, and it looks like a high mid-major. Take away any two schools from the Big East, and it was still better than the ACC with Duke and UNC.

With respect to UConn, I would agree that during the period from around 1992 through 2005, the Big East was the two team conference -- UConn and Syracuse -- with UConn being the stronger of the two. It was suffering the same stagnation in the middle and bottom of the conference that the ACC saw prior to its recent realignment. Sending three of its weaker basketball schools to the ACC and replacing them with a group that included Louisville and Marquette completely changed the dynamic of the Big East. The ACC's recent additions now have done exactly the same thing for the ACC.

As far as Boeheim's comments, he speaks what's on his mind, and usually does so in a manner that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. He has a point though -- New York City is still the capital of college basketball, and playing there is great for marketing the conference and for recruiting. I'm sure both ESPN and the ACC want the ACC Network to clear cable systems in NY at full price. Lighting a fire under the NYC fan base about ACC basketball will go a long way to achieving that. Having said that, Greensboro has tremendous tradition and is conveniently located for many member schools. It should be part of any regular rotation of tournament sites.

A minor thing because I agree with most of your points but from 2001-2005, the big east was not a two team conference. Pitt had turned into a consistent contender by that point.
03-09-2017 07:07 PM
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RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
03-09-2017 07:11 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Boeheim being Boeheim.....then gets owned by Greensboro
(03-09-2017 07:11 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd...7&sid=t477

03-lmfao

The irony of a 3rd rate minor league team doing a promotion to complain about a Coach calling Greensboro too small time for the expanded ACC.

I think it just made Boeheim's point.
03-09-2017 07:52 PM
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