(03-07-2017 03:02 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Honestly I don't consider KJ a freshmen as far as development goes

He's a freshman in a lot of true ways and not a freshman in a lot of true ways, but the fact is he played 10 games before the injury and surgery, which sidelined him for a good bit and he wasn't even 100% by the time practice rolled around this year (quotes from Tubby in the CA that I'm not going to look up.)

So, while acclimating to college life and weights and whatever, he may not be a freshman, his experience level with on court experience was barely above that coming into this season.

(03-07-2017 03:07 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:02 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Honestly I don't consider KJ a freshmen as far as development goes

He's a freshman in a lot of true ways and not a freshman in a lot of true ways, but the fact is he played 10 games before the injury and surgery, which sidelined him for a good bit and he wasn't even 100% by the time practice rolled around this year (quotes from Tubby in the CA that I'm not going to look up.)

So, while acclimating to college life and weights and whatever, he may not be a freshman, his experience level with on court experience was barely above that.

Agree to disagree...

I think his injury was oversold...Perfect time to pack it in was 10 games (1/3 of games played) to get the medical. We get put out in the first round of the conference tourney I think we play 30-31 games.

In any event, the most crucial issue to his "freshman/non-freshman" status is that he still has three years of eligibility.

(03-07-2017 03:15 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  In any event, the most crucial issue to his "freshman/non-freshman" status is that he still has three years of eligibility.

As far as playing time goes you are absolutely correct...

As far as development goes it is an entirely different subject.

(03-07-2017 10:47 AM)SouthernBlue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 09:33 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 07:21 AM)Hoots Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 02:37 AM)Ttaylor Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 11:59 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  He's a freshman.

He's a redshirt freshman who got injured last year. I hear you, BucTiger loud and clear. I hope I'm wrong but I think he's going to be a bust in college. He's selfish and oftentimes refuses to give up the ball only to result in a turnover or a slam dunk by the opposing team. He's not shown any signs that he can compete @ high level in div 1 ball.

No question, he has struggled in many games. Shot selection, handles, etc. You may be right that he'll be a bust. Time will tell. Still, I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't shown "any" signs that he can compete in D1. He has certainly done that.

A bust?

Hell, he averaged 12 and 8 as a freshman.

KJ is one rebound away from tying Sylvester Gray for 5th place in Tiger history for most rebounds as a frosh--only behind David Vaugn, Dedric, Keith Lee, and Lorenzen.

SINGLE-SEASON REBOUNDS
RK REB NAME YEAR
1. 343 Lorenzen Wright 1994-95
2. 320 Keith Lee 1981-82
3. 307 Dedric Lawson 2015-16
4. 282 David Vaughn 1991-92
5. 257 Sylvester Gray 1986-87
6. 256 KJ Lawson 2016-17
Pretty good company.

And this:

SINGLE-SEASON HIGHEST REBOUND AVG
RK AVG NAME YEAR
1. 11.0 Keith Lee 1981-82
2. 10.2 David Vaughn 1991-92
3. 9.4 John Gunn 1974-75
4. 9.3 Dedric Lawson 2015-16
5. 8.3 Lorenzen Wright 1994-95
5. 8.3 KJ Lawson 2016-17

And that is even more impressive because Dedric is averaging 10 rpg, so KJ isn't the only rebounding option.

Again, not saying he's as good as those listed above, just that the idea he is a "bust" or is even a question is foolish.

For me, it is not about stats. It is about winning games. Unless they contribute to wins, stats are just empty calories.

Keith Lee and David Vaughn showed up against the best. They made others around them better and they won.

Even more germane to the stats that KJ has put up this year, is the fact that he did it in the peak ofone and done era where most lottery picks will be TRUE freshmen; all of the others on the list did it vs teams loaded with JR and SR lottery picks; teams were just more mature physically and talented due to no one and done rule.

All of those players on that list would have left for NBA after their freshman year except for two Lawson's.

(03-07-2017 03:22 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:15 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  In any event, the most crucial issue to his "freshman/non-freshman" status is that he still has three years of eligibility.

As far as playing time goes you are absolutely correct...

As far as development goes it is an entirely different subject.

Nah.

People buy into the Cal said "biggest development was between frosh and soph years."

There is nothing that indicates that.

As many CDR's that bumped after their frosh year is a Joe Jackson who made the jump as a junior. Markel obviously made his jump from soph to jr.

A lot of the jump is also a simple by product of increased pt from frosh to soph year.

Frank Mason (KU POY candidate) just made his biggest jump from jr. to sr. year. Nathan Adrian at WVU made his in his sr. year.

Most people still eat anything out of Cal's hand (and of course Josh repeated it).

(03-07-2017 03:27 PM)Penny Lane Wrote:  Even more germane to the stats that KJ has put up this year, is the fact that he did it in the peak ofone and done era where most lottery picks will be TRUE freshmen; all of the others on the list did it vs teams loaded with JR and SR lottery picks; teams were just more mature physically and talented due to no one and done rule.

All of those players on that list would have left for NBA after their freshman year except for two Lawson's.

Ummm....no one and done rule? You do realize the one and done rule was actually put into place in 2006. High school kids could leave early before that. No Garnett, Kobe, Perkins, Amare, Jermaine O'Neal, etc...


Magic left after his sophomore year, or Penny after his soph year?

Lorenzen played as a junior?

You realize how silly you sound now?

(03-07-2017 12:04 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 10:47 AM)SouthernBlue Wrote:  For me, it is not about stats. It is about winning games. Unless they contribute to wins, stats are just empty calories.

Keith Lee and David Vaughn showed up against the best. They made others around them better and they won.

Umm, did you fall asleep during the 1993-94 season when David Vaughn "led" the Tigers to a 13-16 season?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one.

(03-07-2017 03:09 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:07 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:02 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Honestly I don't consider KJ a freshmen as far as development goes

He's a freshman in a lot of true ways and not a freshman in a lot of true ways, but the fact is he played 10 games before the injury and surgery, which sidelined him for a good bit and he wasn't even 100% by the time practice rolled around this year (quotes from Tubby in the CA that I'm not going to look up.)

So, while acclimating to college life and weights and whatever, he may not be a freshman, his experience level with on court experience was barely above that.

Agree to disagree...

I think his injury was oversold...Perfect time to pack it in was 10 games (1/3 of games played) to get the medical. We get put out in the first round of the conference tourney I think we play 30-31 games.

Okay, not going to argue with you, but here is the article:

K.J. Lawson:Out for three months following heel surgery

Posted on April 4, 2016 at 4:22 PM

Lawson is out for three months following heel surgery, CA Sports reports.

Lawson had surgery Friday to clean up heel spurs that prevented him from playing much of his freshman season. The 6-7 forward played in ten games for Memphis last year, averaging nearly 20 minutes, 8.8 points, and 3.5 rebounds per game. The soon-to-be sophomore is expected to apply for and be granted a medical redshirt which would give him another year of eligibility.

(03-07-2017 01:20 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  Congrats to KJ

And thanks to Vitale for noticing.

As I recall we sent him Tiger poop. lol

**** Dick Vitale.

Im not drinking Blue Cool Aid, If KJ decides to leave the amount of options he would have would prove his commodity.

(03-07-2017 03:42 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:27 PM)Penny Lane Wrote:  Even more germane to the stats that KJ has put up this year, is the fact that he did it in the peak ofone and done era where most lottery picks will be TRUE freshmen; all of the others on the list did it vs teams loaded with JR and SR lottery picks; teams were just more mature physically and talented due to no one and done rule.

All of those players on that list would have left for NBA after their freshman year except for two Lawson's.

Ummm....no one and done rule? You do realize the one and done rule was actually put into place in 2006. High school kids could leave early before that. No Garnett, Kobe, Perkins, Amare, Jermaine O'Neal, etc...


Magic left after his sophomore year, or Penny after his soph year?

Lorenzen played as a junior?

You realize how silly you sound now?

Mr. 99% strikes again.

(03-07-2017 04:00 PM)memphomike Wrote:  Im not drinking Blue Cool Aid, If KJ decides to leave the amount of options he would have would prove his commodity.

Well if KJ leaves without daddy getting another job, he's sitting and losing a year. Regardless of the # of options. Most don't see that happening. So I don't think his suitors will really be known, other than schools offering daddy jobs for the young-uns - and that probably won't happen until 2018 at the earliest.

(03-07-2017 04:51 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:42 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 03:27 PM)Penny Lane Wrote:  Even more germane to the stats that KJ has put up this year, is the fact that he did it in the peak ofone and done era where most lottery picks will be TRUE freshmen; all of the others on the list did it vs teams loaded with JR and SR lottery picks; teams were just more mature physically and talented due to no one and done rule.

All of those players on that list would have left for NBA after their freshman year except for two Lawson's.

Ummm....no one and done rule? You do realize the one and done rule was actually put into place in 2006. High school kids could leave early before that. No Garnett, Kobe, Perkins, Amare, Jermaine O'Neal, etc...


Magic left after his sophomore year, or Penny after his soph year?

Lorenzen played as a junior?

You realize how silly you sound now?

Mr. 99% strikes again.

OK BERNIE (back again with the only thing you do-nitpick everything). I Should have qualified for a relative few special cases. Think it was called a "hardship " rule when Magic took advantage of it. The rule as written today DID NOT EXIST THEN.

look at draft and see if freshmen dominated the lottery.

1993.draft-Only 2 non JRs and Srs in first round and Penny effectively was a JR. Vast majority were SRs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_NBA_draft

The other drafts were very similar-very few non SRs selected in first round. Do your own research. It's dumb azzes like you who take up everyone's time to prove you are a dumb azz.

"DO YOU KNOW HOW SILLY YOU LOOK NOW?"

(03-07-2017 12:16 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  If Dedric leaves and that causes us to part ways with Keelon, Keelon will have other offers to join a college staff. When he does, I imagine KJ leaves to follow him and the NCAA probably grants a waiver for him to play immediately elsewhere.

I don't see Dedric leaving and KJ staying.

Really, why do you think KJ would leave if Dedric leaves?

KJ is anything but a "bust." We'll see what happens going forward. Funny how everyone (including me) seems to be surprised by his numbers. Having watched every game, I would've guessed them to be less than they are, too. Maybe it's WHEN he got them, because it sure didn't seem like he impacted a lot of games in a big way.

(03-07-2017 01:39 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 10:00 PM)hsvtiger Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 09:36 PM)Penny Lane Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 03:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 03:18 PM)Penny Lane Wrote:  Agreed. I have posted that if he would play team ball and hit the weights, he could be a great 4 year player. His stats are somewhat misleading due to lack of scorers on this team and he look to get his numbers.

Like he's 3rd on the Tigers in assists? Or that he's 10th on the team in 3 pointers attempted per 40? Or his positive assist to turnover ratio?

Yes, he needs his shooting percentage to improve. Some of that means taking better shots. Some just means being a better shooter.

Rodney Carney shot 38.8% from the field as a soph and 40.7% as a junior while being 3rd and (far and away) 1st in shots attempted those two years.

I never recall people saying Rodney was being selfish trying to "get his own shot" even though he attempted over 800 shots those two years--going 39.9% from the field while dishing out 1.1 assists a game.

Just weird optics against KJ.

You can quote numbers all you want. I saw every game both played. Carney's shot SELECTION was much better than KJ's and it had to be with Cal coaching.

I think that KJ takes really bad shots from time to time. I am surprised at how good his numbers are (assts & positives A/T ratio. Maybe he doesnt take as many bad shots as we think. We just think he does cuz the ones he takes are really bad.

I havent looked lately, but not too long ago he was leading he team in 3% which made he think, he needs t shoot them MORE.

Weird optics, indeed, but you cant ignore the numbers.

Same thoughts. It's just those dribble across halfcourt, no pass, jacked up shots with no one in position that leave an impression on you. Maybe no more than others take bad shots, but just more obvious and with a very low conversion rate.

This

(03-07-2017 01:44 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 09:33 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 07:21 AM)Hoots Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 02:37 AM)Ttaylor Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 11:59 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:  He's a freshman.

He's a redshirt freshman who got injured last year. I hear you, BucTiger loud and clear. I hope I'm wrong but I think he's going to be a bust in college. He's selfish and oftentimes refuses to give up the ball only to result in a turnover or a slam dunk by the opposing team. He's not shown any signs that he can compete @ high level in div 1 ball.

No question, he has struggled in many games. Shot selection, handles, etc. You may be right that he'll be a bust. Time will tell. Still, I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't shown "any" signs that he can compete in D1. He has certainly done that.

A bust?

Hell, he averaged 12 and 8 as a freshman.

KJ is one rebound away from tying Sylvester Gray for 5th place in Tiger history for most rebounds as a frosh--only behind David Vaugn, Dedric, Keith Lee, and Lorenzen.

SINGLE-SEASON REBOUNDS
RK REB NAME YEAR
1. 343 Lorenzen Wright 1994-95
2. 320 Keith Lee 1981-82
3. 307 Dedric Lawson 2015-16
4. 282 David Vaughn 1991-92
5. 257 Sylvester Gray 1986-87
6. 256 KJ Lawson 2016-17
Pretty good company.

And this:

SINGLE-SEASON HIGHEST REBOUND AVG
RK AVG NAME YEAR
1. 11.0 Keith Lee 1981-82
2. 10.2 David Vaughn 1991-92
3. 9.4 John Gunn 1974-75
4. 9.3 Dedric Lawson 2015-16
5. 8.3 Lorenzen Wright 1994-95
5. 8.3 KJ Lawson 2016-17

And that is even more impressive because Dedric is averaging 10 rpg, so KJ isn't the only rebounding option.

Again, not saying he's as good as those listed above, just that the idea he is a "bust" or is even a question is foolish.

Plastic stats?

Must say, I'm surprised. I look at those other guys and they are/were rebounders. I look at KJ and see someone who gets rebounds - sometimes by default.

But the numbers show he's had a really good stats year.

One guarantee for sure the Lawsons do stuff their stats consistently. Look, I'm not a KJ antagonist. I just don't wear the same rose color glasses that the masses seem to have on this board. Sorry...

(03-07-2017 01:48 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 10:59 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 10:47 AM)SouthernBlue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 09:33 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 07:21 AM)Hoots Wrote:  No question, he has struggled in many games. Shot selection, handles, etc. You may be right that he'll be a bust. Time will tell. Still, I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't shown "any" signs that he can compete in D1. He has certainly done that.

A bust?

Hell, he averaged 12 and 8 as a freshman.

KJ is one rebound away from tying Sylvester Gray for 5th place in Tiger history for most rebounds as a frosh--only behind David Vaugn, Dedric, Keith Lee, and Lorenzen.

SINGLE-SEASON REBOUNDS
RK REB NAME YEAR
1. 343 Lorenzen Wright 1994-95
2. 320 Keith Lee 1981-82
3. 307 Dedric Lawson 2015-16
4. 282 David Vaughn 1991-92
5. 257 Sylvester Gray 1986-87
6. 256 KJ Lawson 2016-17
Pretty good company.

And this:

SINGLE-SEASON HIGHEST REBOUND AVG
RK AVG NAME YEAR
1. 11.0 Keith Lee 1981-82
2. 10.2 David Vaughn 1991-92
3. 9.4 John Gunn 1974-75
4. 9.3 Dedric Lawson 2015-16
5. 8.3 Lorenzen Wright 1994-95
5. 8.3 KJ Lawson 2016-17

And that is even more impressive because Dedric is averaging 10 rpg, so KJ isn't the only rebounding option.

Again, not saying he's as good as those listed above, just that the idea he is a "bust" or is even a question is foolish.

For me, it is not about stats. It is about winning games. Unless they contribute to wins, stats are just empty calories.

Keith Lee and David Vaughn showed up against the best. They made others around them better and they won.

KJ is not a bad player...He is not a head case and I do not believe he is selfish.

I do believe that he doesn't believe in his teammates and at times I don't blame him. He believes in himself and at times to a fault because he gets himself in situations where he cant be successful without a referee whistle.

Do I think KJ is a great rebounder...No...I think he is a good rebounder on a bad rebounding team...This will likely be his highest rebounding total of his career especially if he move exclusively to the 3.

Do I think KJ is a great scorer...No yet...But he can be, you can see glimpses of what he can be when he is coming off of screens and shooting pull up jumpers. Whether he is or not will largely depend on him, I think the talent is there to make it happen.

Defensively KJ is what he is...He didn't hit the genetic lottery when it comes to quickness so he will likely struggle guarding good SF.

For a freshmen he had a good season but ultimately he was not ready to shoulder the load.

Agree with most of this. That opening line...I think it's obvious there is a mental piece of the game he hasn't gotten yet. It maybe selfishness or it may be lack of trust or it may be a low bb iq. Once that clicks - and I think it can - he is going to be not just a good stats guy, but a really good team player.

Great post!

(03-07-2017 03:15 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  In any event, the most crucial issue to his "freshman/non-freshman" status is that he still has three years of eligibility.

TRUE