This thread was supposed to about the potential for an Eastern all sports league that was never realized not yet another diatribe about how message posters think the Sandusky scandal should have been handled.

(03-05-2017 04:15 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  You're exactly the cult member type that von Yinzer was talking about.

Exactly false.


Here's the crucial bit of analysis that you can't realize: you can't see past your hatred of Paterno.

You hated the man so much, that you wanted the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground, and every alumni to be stripped of his/her credentials retroactively. Etc. Etc. with ridiculous punishments.


I'm not defending Paterno. I never was.



But every time I try to defend Penn State, your white-hot hatred for Paterno clouds your mind, and ruins your capacity for critical thinking.

(03-05-2017 04:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  This thread was supposed to about the potential for an Eastern all sports league that was never realized not yet another diatribe about how message posters think the Sandusky scandal should have been handled.

I apologize. You are correct.

The thread, obviously, is about Paterno. And there is a cadre of posters on this board who will breath their dying breath cursing the man and everything he did, as well as trying to vilify anyone who defends Penn St by reframing their arguments as defending Paterno.

(03-05-2017 12:47 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 08:33 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  that nobody has been more victimized than Joe Paterno.

I don't give a ___ about Paterno. If there was evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed crimes, then he should have been locked up, if he had lived.

(03-04-2017 11:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  what is almost as bad is the NCAA doesn't care either. they should have given PSU the stiffest penalty they could

Do you call the NCAA if a regular student gets robbed on campus?? Or the police?

Right. You let the police deal with crimes.


The NCAA is for if a player cheated classes or recruits were given impermissible benefits. Things like that.

the difference is Sandusky wasn't a regular student, he was a coach and the athletic department and the university covered up the crimes. The boys were brought to campus under a program sponsored by the university, the acts took place at the university. it would be different if Sandusky found his victims away from his place of employment or if he didn't use his position at PSU to lure these poor kids in. The NCAA may not be able to punish an individual for a crime but a university certainly can, and the NCAA can certainly punish a university for covering up a crime. PSU lacked institutional control. A student getting robbed by another student or by a random individual is hardly comparable to what went on at PSU

(03-05-2017 04:22 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 04:15 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  You're exactly the cult member type that von Yinzer was talking about.

Exactly false.


Here's the crucial bit of analysis that you can't realize: you can't see past your hatred of Paterno.

You hated the man so much, that you wanted the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground, and every alumni to be stripped of his/her credentials retroactively. Etc. Etc. with ridiculous punishments.


I'm not defending Paterno. I never was.



But every time I try to defend Penn State, your white-hot hatred for Paterno clouds your mind, and ruins your capacity for critical thinking.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I wanted the problems inherent at Penn State rectified for the sake and soul of the region that I hail from. To do that, they would have had to go beyond the superficial bandaids and actually would have had to clean their house and not engage in the sort of incestuous, tone-deaf practices that are endemic there to this day. Your statement really highlight some of the problem with the thinking there. People discussing athletic sanctions, which are long past, are perceived as making statements tantamount to wanting "the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground." That is one of the fundamental problems, the actual academic and outreach missions of the institution are at best secondary to the football program. Impinging the status quo of football operations is paramount to destroying the university. I know you are usually uninformed on most topics on here so I can chalk your posts up to the usual ignorance but your statements are awful similar to the ilk that makes me very sad about humanity. I know, I know, everyone is out to get Penn State, the entire world hates them because they are beautiful, and they are the poor unfortunate victims in this giant, vicious, conspiratorial PR media campaign.

(03-05-2017 05:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 04:22 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 04:15 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  You're exactly the cult member type that von Yinzer was talking about.

Exactly false.


Here's the crucial bit of analysis that you can't realize: you can't see past your hatred of Paterno.

You hated the man so much, that you wanted the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground, and every alumni to be stripped of his/her credentials retroactively. Etc. Etc. with ridiculous punishments.


I'm not defending Paterno. I never was.



But every time I try to defend Penn State, your white-hot hatred for Paterno clouds your mind, and ruins your capacity for critical thinking.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I wanted the problems inherent at Penn State rectified for the sake and soul of the region that I hail from. To do that, they would have had to go beyond the superficial bandaids and actually would have had to clean their house and not engage in the sort of incestuous, tone-deaf practices that are endemic there to this day. Your statement really highlight some of the problem with the thinking there. People discussing athletic sanctions, which are long past, are perceived as making statements tantamount to wanting "the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground." That is one of the fundamental problems, the actual academic and outreach missions of the institution are at best secondary to the football program. Impinging the status quo of football operations is paramount to destroying the university. I know you are usually uninformed on most topics on here so I can chalk your posts up to the usual ignorance but your statements are awful similar to the ilk that makes me very sad about humanity. I know, I know, everyone is out to get Penn State, the entire world hates them because they are beautiful, and they are the poor unfortunate victims in this giant, vicious, conspiratorial PR media campaign.

Correct. Pennsylvania natives try to tell people what a dysfunctional place Penn State was (and may still be) and people rush in to defend it because of what, conference loyalty or some such thing?

(03-05-2017 04:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  This thread was supposed to about the potential for an Eastern all sports league that was never realized not yet another diatribe about how message posters think the Sandusky scandal should have been handled.

Yep.

And it's not even worth attempting to have a conversation with some of these folks, most particularly CrazyPaco. If you don't 100% agree with him, he plays the "you're a cult member" and the "Central Pennsylvania is a culturally screwed up area that can never be redeemed" cards.

On the other side, many "Paterno Loyalists"/JoeBots are the same way --- literally impossible to have a conversation with.

(03-06-2017 10:22 AM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 04:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  This thread was supposed to about the potential for an Eastern all sports league that was never realized not yet another diatribe about how message posters think the Sandusky scandal should have been handled.

Yep.

And it's not even worth attempting to have a conversation with some of these folks, most particularly CrazyPaco. If you don't 100% agree with him, he plays the "you're a cult member" and the "Central Pennsylvania is a culturally screwed up area that can never be redeemed" cards.

On the other side, many "Paterno Loyalists"/JoeBots are the same way --- literally impossible to have a conversation with.

That kind of deep-rooted hatred is part of why a true NE conference would be great.

(03-06-2017 11:51 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 10:22 AM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 04:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  This thread was supposed to about the potential for an Eastern all sports league that was never realized not yet another diatribe about how message posters think the Sandusky scandal should have been handled.

Yep.

And it's not even worth attempting to have a conversation with some of these folks, most particularly CrazyPaco. If you don't 100% agree with him, he plays the "you're a cult member" and the "Central Pennsylvania is a culturally screwed up area that can never be redeemed" cards.

On the other side, many "Paterno Loyalists"/JoeBots are the same way --- literally impossible to have a conversation with.

That kind of deep-rooted hatred is part of why a true NE conference would be great.

Rivalries are great ---- I'm not too down for true "hatred" however (which there's a bit too much of, from both sides and well before 2011, as regards Penn State).

Personally, I do wish Penn State was in a northeastern/eastern-based conference as opposed to a Midwestern-based conference.

But it is what it is. Regardless of whether PSU joined the Big East (or ACC) in the 1980s --- the B1G was, at some point, always going to look to make an eastern push of their own. And PSU was always going to be near the top of the list when that time came.

Pennsylvania is a long state. Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me. Have not had the pleasure of going to Philly, as of yet. But no doubt its citizens identify as northeastern.


Both Pitt and Penn St should've been added to the the Big Ten as the same time. It didn't happen and will never happen now, but that would've been my preference.

(03-06-2017 01:10 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Pennsylvania is a long state. Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me. Have not had the pleasure of going to Philly, as of yet. But no doubt its citizens identify as northeastern.

Philly is definitely Northeast. No doubt. I'd say that any part of Pennsylvania east of a Chambersburg - Harrisburg - Allentown - Stroudsburg (e.g., Poconos) - north along the state line/Delaware River is northeast. That's basically east of I-81, except it cuts off the Pottsville, Hazleton, and Scranton-W.B. areas (I wouldn't call any of those areas northeast, although NYC folk are gradually invading the Poconos).

As for "the rest of Pennsylvania" .... Pittsburgh is Midwest, I agree. As are areas to the north and west of Pittsburgh: Beaver Falls, New Castle, Meadville and Erie (the latter 2 being the "most rust belt" among those 5 cities).

But that is the only part of PA that I'd call Midwest.

You don't have to go too far at all (e.g., a few miles) to the south and east of Pittsburgh before you join what is essentially "the rest of PA that is not the northeast nor the midwest." --- that part of PA has West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, southeast Ohio, western Virginia, and eastern Tennessee as its counterparts/dopplegangers. That, of course, is where State College (Penn State) is.

(03-06-2017 01:10 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Both Pitt and Penn St should've been added to the the Big Ten as the same time. It didn't happen and will never happen now, but that would've been my preference.

Penn State themselves barely got in (by a single vote) in 1990. The B1G powers-that-be never would have gone for two teams.

I am a big proponent of Pittsburgh to the B1G, but as you said: it's not going to happen now.

Well it seems silly, in today's expansion rich history of conferences at least, to go from 10 only to 11, as opposed to 12. I guess that alone is how I would've approached it, and obviously that Pitt is every bit as excellent/world-leading in research, particular medical/health science research, as any current Big Ten school. I'm assuming it was back then, too. Plus, you take Pitt and you inexorably get a lot of collaboration with Carnegie Mellon.

(03-06-2017 01:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well it seems silly, in today's expansion rich history of conferences at least, to go from 10 only to 11, as opposed to 12. I guess that alone is how I would've approached it, and obviously that Pitt is every bit as excellent/world-leading in research, particular medical/health science research, as any current Big Ten school. I'm assuming it was back then, too. Plus, you take Pitt and you inexorably get a lot of collaboration with Carnegie Mellon.

The Big Ten was keeping #12 open for Notre Dame.....

I suppose that makes sense.

(03-06-2017 04:59 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 01:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well it seems silly, in today's expansion rich history of conferences at least, to go from 10 only to 11, as opposed to 12. I guess that alone is how I would've approached it, and obviously that Pitt is every bit as excellent/world-leading in research, particular medical/health science research, as any current Big Ten school. I'm assuming it was back then, too. Plus, you take Pitt and you inexorably get a lot of collaboration with Carnegie Mellon.

The Big Ten was keeping #12 open for Notre Dame.....

And #13.

(03-05-2017 05:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  the university covered up the crimes

The university did nothing. It's just a collection of buildings.

If individuals took it upon themselves to cover up a crime, then that's just another crime. For crimes, you call in law enforcement. You don't call the NCAA.

(03-05-2017 05:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  NCAA can certainly punish a university for covering up a crime

Again, a university doesn't cover up a crime. An individual or multiple individuals take it upon themselves to commit crimes.

The NCAA does have rules requiring institutional control. The intention of such rules to prevent the athletic dept from preventing the university from auditing or otherwise holding the dept accountable in terms of making sure the players are eligible. Things like that.

It was never intended for crimes, or covering up crimes (which is just another crime), because the NCAA is not a branch of government law enforcement.


The NCAA tried to get involved with PSU, tried to say that PSU lacked institutional control. That was appealed and defeated, thus proving the NCAA doesn't have authority for crimes.

(03-05-2017 05:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  actually would have had to clean their house and not engage in the sort of incestuous, tone-deaf practices that are endemic there to this day

You make a claim that the entire area surrounding Penn St is an incestuous breeding ground ...

(03-05-2017 05:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  People discussing athletic sanctions, which are long past, are perceived as making statements tantamount to wanting "the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground."

... and then complain about hyperbole???



So fine, your hatred is two-fold: 1) you hate/hated Joe Paterno with white-hot passion, and 2) you hate the people in Central Penn, and automatically equate all Penn State alumni as incestuous morons.



Getting back to what you said ... how have they not cleaned house??

Are you saying that Franklin is under the strings of some "Illuminati of Joe" puppetmaster??

Just for clarification's sake, when people say "Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me," what does that actually mean in practical terms?

I say that because I lived Ohio for many years and it is radically different culturally. Frankly, it was surprisingly different than Pittsburgh.

I think of Pittsburgh as being a bit of a free-agent culturally and geographically. It just doesn't fit into any of the boxes and I think that's why Pittsburghers or so fiercely loyal to it it is definitely it's own place. If I had to put it into a category I would probably put it with more Mid-Atlantic cities like Baltimore, DC and Buffalo.

I think it has some northeastern principles and definitely some midwestern characteristics as well but it doesn't really fit into either box, IMO.

(03-05-2017 04:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  This thread was supposed to about the potential for an Eastern all sports league that was never realized not yet another diatribe about how message posters think the Sandusky scandal should have been handled.

Wait a second. The thread was about why Paterno's proposed Eastern all sports conference never came to fruition and I explained that it was about trust issues between Penn State and everyone else who had options: Pittsburgh, Maryland, Boston College and Syracuse.

I then demonstrated in great detail why those trust issues existed to provide context to the discussion.

The next question then becomes if it's just about one person, why didn't they just move past that one person to do what was best for the whole? I'm sorry but that then demands an explanation for just how powerful that one person was. You are literally talking about the single most powerful figure in the history of intercollegiate athletics and to just blow that off is to ignore the meat of the entire discussion.

As I've said multiple times during this thread, I don't think one person was responsible for that league failing to materialize. I think a lot of people screwed up along the way. However, if you're going to ask me which one figure was most responsible for it failing to materialize, I would point to the most powerful person involved in those discussions. He had a lot more power than everyone else involved and knew it but ultimately overplayed his hand.

That would all be just fine and dandy – after all, it really did work out pretty well for everyone in the end. It did not work out as well as it could have/should have but it certainly could've ended much worse for everyone – and would have had he gotten his way.

However, to then turn around and try to place the blame on everyone else for literally the rest of his life was beyond the pale. Basically, his position was that he wanted to create an all sports conference but the rest of the schools were too stupid to see his vision of the future. What he really meant was that they were too independent-minded to capitulate to his self-serving demands. To characterize it any other way is not merely disingenuous, it is flat out dishonest.

The best guy to talk to about this conversation was the late, great Beano Cook. Man, his eyes would light up when this conversation came up. He was the best – the absolute best.

(03-06-2017 08:48 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just for clarification's sake, when people say "Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me," what does that actually mean in practical terms?

I spent a summer (and many weekends) in Pittsburgh, FWIW. The majority of my life in Detroit, Grand Rapids, Cincinnati and State College. I mention that to give you some of my background, why I believe what I believe.

Anyway, a few of the reasons I'd call Pittsburgh midwest:

(1) it is industrial based,

(2) more working-class vs. professional-class,

(3) people drive CONSIDERABLY more slowly vs. the East Coast (and much more like Ohio & Michigan folk).

(4) much much more friendly folk vs. East Coast folk. (again, fairly like Ohio & MI folk)

(5) fairly conservative political views, definitely not an abundance of northeast liberal types.

(6) growing up in Detroit and attending college at PSU --- I got to see both eastern PA and western PA classmates. Nearly 100% of my college friends wound up being Western PA folk. We just seemed to bond more easily and have more in common; they reminded me of my High School friends much more than eastern PA folk. As I figure, some of that had to have been because of the culture THEY grew up in.

(7) a fairly provincial feel among its citizens, and an over-tendency of its citizens to not leave their city/state after growing up there. This is a huge trait in particular of MI and OH citizens - those 2 states rank #2 and #3 in terms of percentage of their residents that were born in that state (LA is #1, FWIW). PA is #4 in this and a large part of that is due to Pittsburghers: if they are born there they tend to stay there.

(8) Pittsburgh's doppleganger American city is undoubtedly Cincinnati --- a city I lived in and one I would also classify as Midwest

(9) it's citizens properly call it pop and not soda!!!