(02-14-2017 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:16 PM)bullet Wrote:  Of course Putin doesn't want WWIII. He is a narcissitic, paranoid former KGB agent who wants power and money and wants lots of elbow room around Russia so they can't be threatened. He isn't interested in ruling Germany or the former Czechoslovakia or Romania or Bulgaria. Now the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the Stans are within arm's reach. And he would like Turkey to be on his side, not in NATO and maybe Poland (but that's not going to happen). He wants a Europe that isn't united, so that his relative military, political and financial (from oil and gas) power is greater.

Putin wants the same things that every Russian leader since Peter the Great has wanted--defensible borders and a warm water seaport. Peter Zeihan and George Friedman, among others, do a nice job of analyzing this in many formats.

The problem is that from the Rhine/Ardennes/Alps/Carpathians in the west to the Urals in the east, the Great European Plain is pretty much devoid of defensible borders. It's the same problem that Germany, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Czechs, the Slovaks, Hungary, the White Russians, and the Ukrainians all have. There just aren't any natural borders. Therefore the history is of overrunning and being overrun, back and forth. Russians have the additional fear of the Mongol Hordes--the Cossacks are coming. Those are genuine, sincerely held fears.

We don't have to deal with anything like that. We have Canada, Mexico, and two oceans on our borders. So we don't have the same understanding of the problem as they do.

As for the warm water seaport, Iran is probably their best shot. Those Russian leaders since Peter have all cast eyes in that direction from time to time.

Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.

also the military bases in crimea and syria

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

(02-14-2017 01:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

I don't think this one does either.

(02-14-2017 01:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

I wouldn't call it a fear. but yeah russia was so late to end serfdom, lived through the mass slaughter that was the russian revolution, stalin purges, numerous food famines, WWII and always being under the tumb of a dictatorship that they tend to be more respectful of power than normal.

I don't think it's a grand geopolitical dream as much of nationalistic and empire.

western europe didn't conquer 80% of the world for some geopolitical chess game. they wanted that empire.

Russia was always handicapped in the empire game because they didn't have a warm water seaport. So they became the vast land empire.

(02-14-2017 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:16 PM)bullet Wrote:  Of course Putin doesn't want WWIII. He is a narcissitic, paranoid former KGB agent who wants power and money and wants lots of elbow room around Russia so they can't be threatened. He isn't interested in ruling Germany or the former Czechoslovakia or Romania or Bulgaria. Now the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the Stans are within arm's reach. And he would like Turkey to be on his side, not in NATO and maybe Poland (but that's not going to happen). He wants a Europe that isn't united, so that his relative military, political and financial (from oil and gas) power is greater.

Putin wants the same things that every Russian leader since Peter the Great has wanted--defensible borders and a warm water seaport. Peter Zeihan and George Friedman, among others, do a nice job of analyzing this in many formats.

The problem is that from the Rhine/Ardennes/Alps/Carpathians in the west to the Urals in the east, the Great European Plain is pretty much devoid of defensible borders. It's the same problem that Germany, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Czechs, the Slovaks, Hungary, the White Russians, and the Ukrainians all have. There just aren't any natural borders. Therefore the history is of overrunning and being overrun, back and forth. Russians have the additional fear of the Mongol Hordes--the Cossacks are coming. Those are genuine, sincerely held fears.

We don't have to deal with anything like that. We have Canada, Mexico, and two oceans on our borders. So we don't have the same understanding of the problem as they do.

As for the warm water seaport, Iran is probably their best shot. Those Russian leaders since Peter have all cast eyes in that direction from time to time.

Well as Napoleon and Hitler found out-and similarly the Swedish King from the North, those plains ARE massive and its a long, long way to Moscow. They don't need borders all the way to the Rhine to have safety.

(02-14-2017 01:25 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 01:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

I don't think this one does either.

He's not playing diplomacy. He's choosing to play business. Try to find mutual interests. Its a different approach.

(02-14-2017 02:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 01:25 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 01:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

I don't think this one does either.

He's not playing diplomacy. He's choosing to play business. Try to find mutual interests. Its a different approach.

It is a different approach. I can appreciate that but it doesn't seem to be working.

For example.

He told China that the "One China" policy was crap. Then he turned around and said the "One China" policy would continue.

Then he turns around and tells Putin that the START treaty is crap even when Putin says he wants it to continue.

Turns out, Trump didn't even know what the START treaty was.

You can't run the country like a business. Foreign leaders are quickly going to realize that this dude doesn't know what he is doing.

(02-14-2017 02:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 02:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 01:25 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 01:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

I don't think this one does either.

He's not playing diplomacy. He's choosing to play business. Try to find mutual interests. Its a different approach.

It is a different approach. I can appreciate that but it doesn't seem to be working.

For example.

He told China that the "One China" policy was crap. Then he turned around and said the "One China" policy would continue.

Then he turns around and tells Putin that the START treaty is crap even when Putin says he wants it to continue.

Turns out, Trump didn't even know what the START treaty was.

You can't run the country like a business. Foreign leaders are quickly going to realize that this dude doesn't know what he is doing.

Sounds like you are making up your own facts.

Trump called Taiwan. I don't recall him ever saying one China was done (feel free to link).

He certainly didn't tell Putin he was dumping START (now he may have had comments expressing doubt-feel free to link).

You can't run a country like we have the last 8 years. That is clear.

Whether his "greed is good" approach will work for foreign relations remains to be seen.

(02-14-2017 01:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 12:45 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Putin wants what argentina wanted with the falklands. recover "lost" territory that feeds into the nationalistic thinking of you population makes said population forget about the domestic problems being caused by your non democratic govt.
also the military bases in crimea and syria

That's a large part of it, no doubt--a diversion from the domestic problems.

But there's also an element of fear that is inherently Russian. Reagan played on that fear very deftly to bring about an end to the Cold War. I don't think our last few leaders have had much of a clue how to play diplomacy.

Putin was KGB. I think he is even more paranoid than the typical American Democratic progressive. He can't get out of the paradigm he lived for most of his life. His actions definitely indicate paranoia.

Quote:

Quote:Sounds like you are making up your own facts.

Trump called Taiwan. I don't recall him ever saying one China was done (feel free to link).[/quote]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/f...xi-jinping

Quote:He certainly didn't tell Putin he was dumping START (now he may have had comments expressing doubt-feel free to link).

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/140547/d...ow-its-bad

Quote:You can't run a country like we have the last 8 years. That is clear.

We did and we improved in just about every important category.

(02-14-2017 04:15 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

Quote:

Quote:Sounds like you are making up your own facts.

Trump called Taiwan. I don't recall him ever saying one China was done (feel free to link).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/f...xi-jinping

Quote:He certainly didn't tell Putin he was dumping START (now he may have had comments expressing doubt-feel free to link).

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/140547/d...ow-its-bad

Quote:You can't run a country like we have the last 8 years. That is clear.

We did and we improved in just about every important category.
[/quote]

Life expectancy declined last year. That is the ultimate category. 70% of the country thought we were going in the wrong direction.

Don't see anything definitive in those articles. How does the 2nd article know what Trump said in his call with Putin? There's no reference to how they know that. And they shouldn't know what was in a private diplomatic call. Sounds like fiction. And there's been a lot of fiction created by reporters lately.

The first one talks about Trump's private conversations with Tillerson on one China. Again, no explanation of how they know about that, although its not as far-fetched as them knowing about the Putin call.

You clearly have reasons to believe it, but its pretty sketchy info.

Quote:Life expectancy declined last year.

Life expectancy? And what pray tell does that have to do with the previous administration?

Quote:70% of the country thought we were going in the wrong direction.

That had nothing to do with the POTUS because his approval rating was one of the highest.

Quote:Don't see anything definitive in those articles.

You said I was making up facts. What say you now?

(02-14-2017 04:29 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

Quote:Life expectancy declined last year.

Life expectancy? And what pray tell does that have to do with the previous administration?

Quote:70% of the country thought we were going in the wrong direction.

That had nothing to do with the POTUS because his approval rating was one of the highest.

Quote:Don't see anything definitive in those articles.

You said I was making up facts. What say you now?

As I said, you have reason to believe what you said. I've got good reason to be skeptical of those reports.

As for Obama that's typical of him. Life expectancy declines for the first time in the country's history except for war and the 1917 flue pandemic, yet Obama has nothing to do with it. People are unhappy with the way the country is going at a record level yet Obama has nothing to do with that. Kind of like Art Briles not having his fingerprints on the rape scandal at Baylor.

(02-14-2017 10:25 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  What did the president know, and when did he know it?

I'm not seeing a cover-up anywhere. Would you kindly point me to the non-existant cover-up?

(02-14-2017 10:48 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 10:25 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  What did the president know, and when did he know it?

That is the question that the GOP will make sure never gets answered.

Because there's no there there. You got a link to this non-existant cover-up you and Bobcat keep pointing to?

(02-14-2017 10:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 10:55 AM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 10:50 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 10:48 AM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 10:38 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Why did Trump say on Friday that he had never heard about the report when in fact he was informed of the lies 3 weeks ago?

At least he didn't say he just learned it like the rest of us in the morning paper like some other former POTUS liked to say on multiple occasions.

So can I put you down as being okay with the bold face lie to the American people?


Because some in this forum used to care about **** like that.

Oh the hypocrisy.

I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of the left on this board. 8 years of lies and willful dishonesty to the American people and you did not condone the previous administration.

I am never happy when we are lied to by anyone but the left acts like they are up in some ivory tower looking down on the rest of us with a higher moral authority.

Don't try to hold this administration accountable for every little lie when you would not do the same with the previous administration.

You have it backwards son. I have always said that politicians lie. Everybody lies. I didn't care then and I don't care now.

You guys on the other hand went on and on and on for years about the lies of the previous administration.

Where is the consistency?

Oh the hypocrisy.

You did then, and you do now.

Thanks for playing.

This whole thing is much ado about nothing for me. First, so what if Flynn spoke to Russia or even if Trump told him to? It's normal for incoming administration's to communicate with foreign counterparts. It doesn't matter if he said we plan to roll back sanctions, please don't sanction the US.

The only thing concrete is that the Swamp is the deep and rogue elements of Washington are leaking things to the media/dems. That deserves prosecution.

Trump fired an employee for lying to the vice president. That's appropriate. The only issue here is the leaking of classified Info or the secret recording of the trump administration by rogue elements of the deep state.

You can't run the country like a business. Foreign leaders are quickly going to realize that this dude doesn't know what he is doing.
[/quote]

Oh, like Oblunder. I agree. A community organizer can't know any more than what Trump does. For once, we agree.

They knew this information weeks ago. They only fired him when it was leaked.