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If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #1181
If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and...
Looking at a 9 team B12, it's my understanding that they wouldn't have enough members to fulfill their TV contact. With that, wouldn't the GOR go away? If no one has enough votes to gain membership...

Maybe the GOR is broken & Texas & Oklahoma sneak out the backdoor? The remaining 7 regroup & then expand?
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2017 10:41 AM by Lenvillecards.)
02-06-2017 10:39 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #1182
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 10:39 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Looking at a 9 team B12, it's my understanding that they wouldn't have enough members to fulfill their TV contact. With that, wouldn't the GOR go away? If no one has enough votes to gain membership...

Maybe the GOR is broken & Texas & Oklahoma sneak out the backdoor? The remaining 7 regroup & then expand?

The NCAA can allow an undermanned conference to function for three years before filling a vacancy or disbanding. As for TV rights they can keep Baylor on their schedules until they can be reconsidered for full membership. The question is what happens if Baylor isn't permitted to field a team? Then the Big 12 must add 1 to keep the contract enforced.
02-06-2017 12:41 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #1183
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
I saw someone suggest on Twitter that they should just drop Baylor and add BYU. From the perspective of a healthy Big 12, that's the best move they could make.
02-06-2017 02:00 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #1184
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 02:00 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  I saw someone suggest on Twitter that they should just drop Baylor and add BYU. From the perspective of a healthy Big 12, that's the best move they could make.

Except that would require a new GOR........and not everyone might want to sign a new one.
02-06-2017 05:22 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #1185
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
Which schools should the SEC take from the Big 12?
Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and TCU.
Locks up Houston AND Dallas/Ft. Worth for the SEC. Forces Texas west or to the B1G where they will become a non-factor.

How do you free up an extra spot? Move Kentucky to the ACC north (an excellent 8 team division that includes: Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Miami) and add West Virginia which allows Notre Dame to continue with their current status.
02-06-2017 06:07 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #1186
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 06:07 PM)XLance Wrote:  Which schools should the SEC take from the Big 12?
Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and TCU.
Locks up Houston AND Dallas/Ft. Worth for the SEC. Forces Texas west or to the B1G where they will become a non-factor.

How do you free up an extra spot? Move Kentucky to the ACC north (an excellent 8 team division that includes: Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Miami) and add West Virginia which allows Notre Dame to continue with their current status.

X my money is on claiming the brands for content. We won't relinquish a single SEC school because none of them want to leave and all of them are earning more money here than they can anywhere else, know that they will earn even more if OU or UT or both come on board, and are not going to give any of that up.

I think the SEC will take UT, TTU, OU, and OSU before this is all done. We aren't hung up on symmetry, or the number 16. I imagine we will push for multiple divisions an if it doesn't fly we will go with 2 divisions of 9 as a last resort.
02-06-2017 06:40 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #1187
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
The two division rule is going to be hard to get around. The B1G won't help, nor will the PAC. And after the SEC left the ACC hanging the last time the ACC tried to get "no divisions" passed, the SEC probably won't get any support from us. Two divisions of 9 will mean at least 10 conference games and you'll rarely see teams in the other division.
02-06-2017 08:35 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 08:35 PM)XLance Wrote:  The two division rule is going to be hard to get around. The B1G won't help, nor will the PAC. And after the SEC left the ACC hanging the last time the ACC tried to get "no divisions" passed, the SEC probably won't get any support from us. Two divisions of 9 will mean at least 10 conference games and you'll rarely see teams in the other division.

There are already rules to get around it. The divisions just have to shift around annually, but you keep just two. Or, you go to 11 conference games and rotate 3 from the other division.

Besides if we divide them correctly it won't matter.
02-06-2017 08:49 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #1189
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
The math is a little funky when you're talking about mixing and matching teams from divisions of 9.

I would rather go to 20 if we can't get 3 or 4 divisions.

Example...

SEC takes Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, and West Virginia

West: Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas

Central: Texas A&M, LSU, Arkansas, Missouri, Ole Miss

South: Mississippi State, Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

East: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia



Years 1 & 2....West/Central vs South/East...Play everyone from the combined 2 divisions. Get 1 crossover game in the event there are critical rivalries to maintain...in this particular case it's the Egg Bowl. That's 10 conference games.

Years 3 & 4...West/South vs Central/East...same format, but the rotation allows for schools to play each other more often.

Years 5 & 6...West/East vs Central/South...same format, but the rotation has allowed everyone in the league to play to play everyone else at least twice in 6 years.

20 members, 10 conference games, and no semi-finals needed.
02-06-2017 09:12 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #1190
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 09:12 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The math is a little funky when you're talking about mixing and matching teams from divisions of 9.

I would rather go to 20 if we can't get 3 or 4 divisions.

Example...

SEC takes Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, and West Virginia

West: Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas

Central: Texas A&M, LSU, Arkansas, Missouri, Ole Miss

South: Mississippi State, Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

East: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia



Years 1 & 2....West/Central vs South/East...Play everyone from the combined 2 divisions. Get 1 crossover game in the event there are critical rivalries to maintain...in this particular case it's the Egg Bowl. That's 10 conference games.

Years 3 & 4...West/South vs Central/East...same format, but the rotation allows for schools to play each other more often.

Years 5 & 6...West/East vs Central/South...same format, but the rotation has allowed everyone in the league to play to play everyone else at least twice in 6 years.

20 members, 10 conference games, and no semi-finals needed.

If we went to 20 out of the Big 12 we probably shouldn't take WVU. If Baylor were to be expelled from the Big 12 it will take 7 votes to disband. With WVU being the only likely candidate for the ACC we would have to rely upon their placement there to get the 7 votes needed for dissolution.

Then we could offer Texa-homa plus Kansas and Iowa State to get to 20. You wouldn't have 4 divisions unless autonomy covers that arrangement. So, you would have 4 half divisions of 5 schools each that rotated each year until in 3 years time you had played everyone.

Iowa State, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

Arkansas, Louisiana State, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech

Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt

Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee

You play the 4 in your 1/2 division, the 5 in the rotating 1/2 division, and 1 permanent rival for a slate of 10 conference games.

And BTW the math isn't funky at all at 18. You play the other 8 in your division and rotate three from the other one annually. It's simple. It's just that it is 11 conference games.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2017 09:23 PM by JRsec.)
02-06-2017 09:21 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #1191
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 08:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:35 PM)XLance Wrote:  The two division rule is going to be hard to get around. The B1G won't help, nor will the PAC. And after the SEC left the ACC hanging the last time the ACC tried to get "no divisions" passed, the SEC probably won't get any support from us. Two divisions of 9 will mean at least 10 conference games and you'll rarely see teams in the other division.

There are already rules to get around it. The divisions just have to shift around annually, but you keep just two. Or, you go to 11 conference games and rotate 3 from the other division.

Besides if we divide them correctly it won't matter.


Shifting teams in a division sounds like a long term disaster. 11 conference games from a bunch that does not want to go beyond 8 now?
Good luck!
02-06-2017 09:22 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 09:22 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:35 PM)XLance Wrote:  The two division rule is going to be hard to get around. The B1G won't help, nor will the PAC. And after the SEC left the ACC hanging the last time the ACC tried to get "no divisions" passed, the SEC probably won't get any support from us. Two divisions of 9 will mean at least 10 conference games and you'll rarely see teams in the other division.

There are already rules to get around it. The divisions just have to shift around annually, but you keep just two. Or, you go to 11 conference games and rotate 3 from the other division.

Besides if we divide them correctly it won't matter.


Shifting teams in a division sounds like a long term disaster. 11 conference games from a bunch that does not want to go beyond 8 now?
Good luck!

Shifting 1/2 divisions is nothing. Frankly neither is 11 conference games. We are headed toward having to play all 12 games within the P conference designation. The SEC just gets there first. The last game can be for in state rivals who are in other conferences.

Too many? Not at all. Why? Because when we set it at 8 conference games there were 12 members. Adding 8 more schools since with only adding 3 more games......that's downright economical!
02-06-2017 09:28 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 09:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 09:22 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:35 PM)XLance Wrote:  The two division rule is going to be hard to get around. The B1G won't help, nor will the PAC. And after the SEC left the ACC hanging the last time the ACC tried to get "no divisions" passed, the SEC probably won't get any support from us. Two divisions of 9 will mean at least 10 conference games and you'll rarely see teams in the other division.

There are already rules to get around it. The divisions just have to shift around annually, but you keep just two. Or, you go to 11 conference games and rotate 3 from the other division.

Besides if we divide them correctly it won't matter.


Shifting teams in a division sounds like a long term disaster. 11 conference games from a bunch that does not want to go beyond 8 now?
Good luck!

Shifting 1/2 divisions is nothing. Frankly neither is 11 conference games. We are headed toward having to play all 12 games within the P conference designation. The SEC just gets there first. The last game can be for in state rivals who are in other conferences.

Too many? Not at all. Why? Because when we set it at 8 conference games there were 12 members. Adding 8 more schools since with only adding 3 more games......that's downright economical!

Besides, it's not the end game. It's the setup step for it.
02-06-2017 09:32 PM
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murrdcu Offline
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Post: #1194
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 09:32 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 09:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 09:22 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 08:35 PM)XLance Wrote:  The two division rule is going to be hard to get around. The B1G won't help, nor will the PAC. And after the SEC left the ACC hanging the last time the ACC tried to get "no divisions" passed, the SEC probably won't get any support from us. Two divisions of 9 will mean at least 10 conference games and you'll rarely see teams in the other division.

There are already rules to get around it. The divisions just have to shift around annually, but you keep just two. Or, you go to 11 conference games and rotate 3 from the other division.

Besides if we divide them correctly it won't matter.


Shifting teams in a division sounds like a long term disaster. 11 conference games from a bunch that does not want to go beyond 8 now?
Good luck!

Shifting 1/2 divisions is nothing. Frankly neither is 11 conference games. We are headed toward having to play all 12 games within the P conference designation. The SEC just gets there first. The last game can be for in state rivals who are in other conferences.

Too many? Not at all. Why? Because when we set it at 8 conference games there were 12 members. Adding 8 more schools since with only adding 3 more games......that's downright economical!

Besides, it's not the end game. It's the setup step for it.

Fun part is some of the G5 schools are ready to just do a G5 playoff. That would remove a lot of red tape for whatever the P5 wanted to do.
02-07-2017 06:29 AM
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XLance Online
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-06-2017 06:40 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 06:07 PM)XLance Wrote:  Which schools should the SEC take from the Big 12?
Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and TCU.
Locks up Houston AND Dallas/Ft. Worth for the SEC. Forces Texas west or to the B1G where they will become a non-factor.

How do you free up an extra spot? Move Kentucky to the ACC north (an excellent 8 team division that includes: Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Miami) and add West Virginia which allows Notre Dame to continue with their current status.

X my money is on claiming the brands for content. We won't relinquish a single SEC school because none of them want to leave and all of them are earning more money here than they can anywhere else, know that they will earn even more if OU or UT or both come on board, and are not going to give any of that up.

I think the SEC will take UT, TTU, OU, and OSU before this is all done. We aren't hung up on symmetry, or the number 16. I imagine we will push for multiple divisions an if it doesn't fly we will go with 2 divisions of 9 as a last resort.

You have to remember to work within the 32/33 team merged conference JR (moving Kentucky was your idea to begin with, not mine).
If you want OU, OSU, Texas and TT you have to make room for them.
Moving Kentucky to the ACC north is a way (and it's good for them too).
Another thing that has to be done in that scenario is move Missouri to the B1G so that the B1G can pair Missouri with Kansas to get to 16. (BTW that makes a nifty B1G west (Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, and Illinois, which is a natural break to divide the B1G).
This is basically your original plan with a few tweaks.
West Virginia is in. That way Notre Dame stays a partial and never has to visit places like West Virginia or the State of Mississippi.
02-07-2017 08:09 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #1196
If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and...
Has anyone played with the numbers to see where the PDR is? Does that only effect the conference networks? How large can a conference get before hitting their PDR?

(PDR= point of diminishing returns)
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 09:41 AM by Lenvillecards.)
02-07-2017 09:40 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-07-2017 08:09 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 06:40 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 06:07 PM)XLance Wrote:  Which schools should the SEC take from the Big 12?
Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and TCU.
Locks up Houston AND Dallas/Ft. Worth for the SEC. Forces Texas west or to the B1G where they will become a non-factor.

How do you free up an extra spot? Move Kentucky to the ACC north (an excellent 8 team division that includes: Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Miami) and add West Virginia which allows Notre Dame to continue with their current status.

X my money is on claiming the brands for content. We won't relinquish a single SEC school because none of them want to leave and all of them are earning more money here than they can anywhere else, know that they will earn even more if OU or UT or both come on board, and are not going to give any of that up.

I think the SEC will take UT, TTU, OU, and OSU before this is all done. We aren't hung up on symmetry, or the number 16. I imagine we will push for multiple divisions an if it doesn't fly we will go with 2 divisions of 9 as a last resort.

You have to remember to work within the 32/33 team merged conference JR (moving Kentucky was your idea to begin with, not mine).
If you want OU, OSU, Texas and TT you have to make room for them.
Moving Kentucky to the ACC north is a way (and it's good for them too).
Another thing that has to be done in that scenario is move Missouri to the B1G so that the B1G can pair Missouri with Kansas to get to 16. (BTW that makes a nifty B1G west (Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, and Illinois, which is a natural break to divide the B1G).
This is basically your original plan with a few tweaks.
West Virginia is in. That way Notre Dame stays a partial and never has to visit places like West Virginia or the State of Mississippi.

If you recall X my plan was for a merger with three schools being added. What I'm discussing here is simply the SEC expanding and what might follow afterwards.
02-07-2017 11:46 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(02-07-2017 09:40 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Has anyone played with the numbers to see where the PDR is? Does that only effect the conference networks? How large can a conference get before hitting their PDR?

(PDR= point of diminishing returns)

Lenville adding UT and OU plus travel companions does not exceed the PDR. Moving to 32 might bring about an amelioration of payouts depending upon whether the total value is greater than the several value. However, even that difference might be made up by collective bargaining and the elimination of duplicate and triplicate expenses. It's a fair question but one that will not inhibit expansion to 16 or 18, but depending of course on the schools being added.
02-07-2017 11:53 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
Since February we have some new information on conference statistics. The financial information is as current as we have but is still for the 2015-6 season. The attendance figures are for Fall of 2016.

Conference MEAN Gross Revenue:

1. SEC: $121,240,504
2. B1G: $108,269,417 ($12,971,087 behind the SEC)
3. B12: $102,170,537 ( $6,098,880 behind the B1G & $19,069,967 behind the SEC)
4. PAC: $ 89,239,736 ($12,930,801 behind the B12 & $32,000,768 behind the SEC)
5. ACC: $ 87,034,205 ( $2,205,531 behind the PAC & $34,206,299 behind the SEC)


Conference MEAN Attendance for Football:

1. SEC: 77,565
2. B1G: 66,162 (11,403 behind the SEC)
3. B12: 57,238 ( 8,924 behind the B1G & 20,327 behind the SEC)
4. PAC: 50,112 ( 7,126 behind the B12 & 27,453 behind the SEC)
5. ACC: 49,827 ( 285 behind the PAC & 27,738 behind the SEC)

Of all of the Big 12 Schools only Texas and Oklahoma add to the SEC MEAN Gross Revenue and the SEC MEAN Attendance figures. But they add enough that they could cover 2 other additions if required and still show an increase in the SEC MEAN Gross Revenue and only a slight decline in the SEC MEAN Attendance figures.

So this means that Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State is viable.
Or, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia is viable
Or, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, West Virginia may be viable. But, for the latter the SEC Mean Attendance would take a large hit. Kansas State only averaged 25,000 in attendance for football last season. This will be a major albatross around their necks should they seek a conference home in either the B1G or SEC.
04-10-2017 02:04 PM
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Soobahk40050 Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(04-10-2017 02:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Since February we have some new information on conference statistics. The financial information is as current as we have but is still for the 2015-6 season. The attendance figures are for Fall of 2016.

Conference MEAN Gross Revenue:

1. SEC: $121,240,504
2. B1G: $108,269,417 ($12,971,087 behind the SEC)
3. B12: $102,170,537 ( $6,098,880 behind the B1G & $19,069,967 behind the SEC)
4. PAC: $ 89,239,736 ($12,930,801 behind the B12 & $32,000,768 behind the SEC)
5. ACC: $ 87,034,205 ( $2,205,531 behind the PAC & $34,206,299 behind the SEC)


Conference MEAN Attendance for Football:

1. SEC: 77,565
2. B1G: 66,162 (11,403 behind the SEC)
3. B12: 57,238 ( 8,924 behind the B1G & 20,327 behind the SEC)
4. PAC: 50,112 ( 7,126 behind the B12 & 27,453 behind the SEC)
5. ACC: 49,827 ( 285 behind the PAC & 27,738 behind the SEC)

Of all of the Big 12 Schools only Texas and Oklahoma add to the SEC MEAN Gross Revenue and the SEC MEAN Attendance figures. But they add enough that they could cover 2 other additions if required and still show an increase in the SEC MEAN Gross Revenue and only a slight decline in the SEC MEAN Attendance figures.

So this means that Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State is viable.
Or, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia is viable
Or, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, West Virginia may be viable. But, for the latter the SEC Mean Attendance would take a large hit. Kansas State only averaged 25,000 in attendance for football last season. This will be a major albatross around their necks should they seek a conference home in either the B1G or SEC.

Would a move to the SEC increase Kansas attendance though? Bringing in OK gives us OK-Alabama, OK-Texas A&M, OK-Auburn, OK-LSU, etc, which I would think would be huge games, but Kansas-Alabama, Kansas-Texas A&M, etc, doesn't exactly scream much-watch. On the other hand, Kansas-Missouri would.

Also, just like other schools, how much of this is winning related?
Taking their Orange Bowl season, I see:
vs. Central Michigan 46,815
vs. SE Louisiana 43,914
vs. Toledo 48,112
vs. Baylor 43,556
vs. Nebraska 51,910
vs. Iowa State 51,050
vs. Missouri 80,537 (Arrowhead)

Similar numbers in 2008, 2009, and only slightly lower numbers in 2010, 2011, 2012, then another dip in 2013 and a heavier dip in 2014. The painful numbers hit in 2015 (25,910 vs. 3 Baylor and 26,677 vs. 14 OK).

Of course the school had to fire Mangino, and Kansas isn't a destination school, but seems like they are only a good coaching hire away from having solid attendance, if not spectacular or SEC level. A decent G5 coach might want a chance and take the first P5 job, or perhaps someone who doesn't mind being the number 2 guy behind Self and who can thrive outside of the limelight?
04-10-2017 02:38 PM
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