(08-26-2016 02:20 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  For me, there are only four real juggernaut programs going forward, and it has to do with their coaches.

It's Alabama, Ohio St., FSU and LSU all other programs have cycled in and out of greatness over the last 40 years or so. It can even be argued that Alabama and Ohio St. had some down years after Bear Bryant and Woody Hayes stepped down.

But for me, these four are the scarey good programs, year in and year out.

That's sounds more like who is currently elite

I'd throw Clemson into that mix as well....LSU needs to do something if they want to stay in the "elite" column

(08-25-2016 08:51 PM)AubTiger16 Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 06:36 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:51 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:50 PM)stever20 Wrote:  well looking at the all time top 10 by winning pct...
Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio St, Oklahoma, Alabama, Texas, USC, Nebraska, Penn St, and Tennessee...
so of the ops top 10- 6 are in the top 10 already...
he included the 3 Florida Schools along with LSU...
just looking-
Florida St, LSU, Miami, and Florida are all in the top 15 all time.

for those that don't think LSU belongs- they are #12 all time even on straight up wins.
he left out Texas, Penn St, Michigan and Tennessee

It's a pretty valid list quite frankly.

Yup!

It trades one or two metrics which tend to discount success in the first half of last century.

This is just a perception thing, but I would put Tennessee in the same tier as Texas, Georgia, Clemson and Auburn, with Michigan and Penn St a little higher. Then there is big dropoff. So a 2nd ten might look like

11. Penn St
12. Mich
13. Texas
14. Tenn
15. Georgia
16. Clemson
17. Auburn
18. Mich State
19. Washington
20. Georgia Tech

Clemson ahead of Auburn?

http://www.winsipedia.com/auburn/vs/clemson

FSU -http://www.winsipedia.com/auburn/vs/florida-state
Florida- http://www.winsipedia.com/auburn/vs/florida
Miami -http://www.winsipedia.com/auburn/vs/miami-fl

I listed this just vs Auburn. This isn't comparing those Florida Schools to the more successful programs. I just want you to see how close it actually is.

(08-25-2016 08:16 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ranking...nkings.php

This is a much better ranking system with no bias. It takes into account everything. Thanks for posting this.

I think Auburn is a program you could argue is pretty high up there....

And again I question Michigan, Penn State, and Texas

(08-25-2016 08:16 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ranking...nkings.php

those rankings are crap

Georgia above Miami?

Minnesota above FSU??

Sorry but that's laughable. Change your formula cfbdatawarehouse.com

I want to see something that takes DOMINANCE into account, and weighs DYNASTIES as an important factor

Georgia has to be the only major SEC school to not win a National Championship during the BCS years. Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Tennessee, LSU, all won Nattys

Minnesota should firmly be behind the Florida schools and many SEC schools

(08-25-2016 09:03 PM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:23 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  blueblood traditional nonsense be damned, it's time to give the Florida schools their due

These are the real top 10 programs of ALL TIME right here:

1. Alabama
The Crimson Tide rule college football...16 Nattys, multiple dynasties, multiple heisman winners, some of the best defenses ever. Hard to argue with this one.

2. Oklahoma
Oklahoma keeps churning out good teams, and keeps challenging to at least be in the race every year. They've got a ton of championships, and have a solid program.

3. Notre Dame
They definitely have the name, and the championships...the legends and the myths. They don't have the rings lately though....at least not since '88. Might have won one in '93 with a playoff...who knows. In the past 15 years, they get demolished a lot on the big stage

4. USC
They've also got tons of championships, heisman winners, and a nice dynasty from the 2000s. They are RBs and Rose Bowl Lore...

5. Ohio State
They've got the successful past from Big 10 days, and have been challenging the college football world pretty strong since '96...2 Nattys in the last 15 years and first Playoff National Championship as well

6. FSU
Texas? Nebraska? Penn State? Michigan?
Screw that...FSU now has 3 Championships, multiple Heisman winners. The 2013 team broke all sorts of records, the 1999 team went Wire to Wire in the AP Poll, and the '93 team was absolutely loaded with Heisman winner Charlie Ward. Even in their mediocre period in the 2000s, they really weren't having losing seasons. They've pretty much been going strong since Bowden took over in '76. They are a football powerhouse.

7. Miami
Five National Championships, possibly the best team ever (2001), the school that brought swagger and speed to the game. Miami has flat out embarrassed prominent schools in the college football world.

8. Florida
Three National Championships, a dominant SEC dynasty in the 90s, Florida has definitely earned their spot as one of the best college football schools out there.

9. LSU
This might be a surprise to some people, but they've got some decent history with the '59 team, and since '01, they've been one of the top teams in the country, winning 2 National Championships and playing for one more. That 2011 team had possibly the greatest regular season ever.

10. Nebraska
I'll give Nebraska the nod over Michigan here....Nebraska has 5 National Championships, with a dynasty in the 90s, and a legendary coach in Tom Osborne. They've fallen off as of late though.

That looks like a top 5 followed by 4 schools you root for.

Well I definitely don't root for Miami or Florida...

But my rankings are definitely an argument for the legitimacy of the Florida schools

11 National Championships...
I don't even know how many NC appearances....

How many years since '80 have they been involved in the National Championship race somehow? It's an annual affair

(08-26-2016 02:20 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  For me, there are only four real juggernaut programs going forward, and it has to do with their coaches.

It's Alabama, Ohio St., FSU and LSU all other programs have cycled in and out of greatness over the last 40 years or so. It can even be argued that Alabama and Ohio St. had some down years after Bear Bryant and Woody Hayes stepped down.

But for me, these four are the scarey good programs, year in and year out.

Question, have you honestly looked at how many times USC has been in the top 25 since 2000? Wow, we have three average seasons and it's like we are not one of the greatest programs in college football anymore lol.

I mean in these "bad seasons"

2015 - We won the Pac-12 south
2014- Went 9-4 and won the Holiday bowl and finished the season ranked.
2013 - Went 10-4 and finished the season ranked
2012 - Was our worst season in recent memory going 7-6
2011- We were a top 5 team with an 11-2 record but were bowl ineligible.

And I mean before that we were consistently one of the best teams in the country. I can't wait for this season to start so we can get action.

(08-26-2016 03:13 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 08:16 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ranking...nkings.php

those rankings are crap

Georgia above Miami?

Minnesota above FSU??

Sorry but that's laughable. Change your formula cfbdatawarehouse.com

I want to see something that takes DOMINANCE into account, and weighs DYNASTIES as an important factor

Georgia has to be the only major SEC school to not win a National Championship during the BCS years. Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Tennessee, LSU, all won Nattys

Minnesota should firmly be behind the Florida schools and many SEC schools

As I was told -- football has been played for more than 10 years, son. If you are advocating an all-time ranking, then yes, Minnesota ranks ahead of your pet schools. If you want to rank recent success, then you have to start qualifying what is RECENT in your rankings. But when I pointed out that RECENTLY (this century) Ohio State is FAR better than Oklahoma, I was told I have to use all-time.

(08-26-2016 03:33 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  

(08-26-2016 02:20 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  For me, there are only four real juggernaut programs going forward, and it has to do with their coaches.
It's Alabama, Ohio St., FSU and LSU all other programs have cycled in and out of greatness over the last 40 years or so. It can even be argued that Alabama and Ohio St. had some down years after Bear Bryant and Woody Hayes stepped down.
But for me, these four are the scarey good programs, year in and year out.

Question, have you honestly looked at how many times USC has been in the top 25 since 2000? Wow, we have three average seasons and it's like we are not one of the greatest programs in college football anymore lol.
I mean in these "bad seasons"
2015 - We won the Pac-12 south
2014- Went 9-4 and won the Holiday bowl and finished the season ranked.
2013 - Went 10-4 and finished the season ranked
2012 - Was our worst season in recent memory going 7-6
2011- We were a top 5 team with an 11-2 record but were bowl ineligible.

And I mean before that we were consistently one of the best teams in the country. I can't wait for this season to start so we can get action.

USC is a great, great program. But in the last 20 years, you just can't put them in that top 4 for putting dread in ones heart. And with they coaches they have in place, I don't see anything changing for another decade with those teams.

(08-26-2016 05:02 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(08-26-2016 03:33 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  

(08-26-2016 02:20 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  For me, there are only four real juggernaut programs going forward, and it has to do with their coaches.
It's Alabama, Ohio St., FSU and LSU all other programs have cycled in and out of greatness over the last 40 years or so. It can even be argued that Alabama and Ohio St. had some down years after Bear Bryant and Woody Hayes stepped down.
But for me, these four are the scarey good programs, year in and year out.

Question, have you honestly looked at how many times USC has been in the top 25 since 2000? Wow, we have three average seasons and it's like we are not one of the greatest programs in college football anymore lol.
I mean in these "bad seasons"
2015 - We won the Pac-12 south
2014- Went 9-4 and won the Holiday bowl and finished the season ranked.
2013 - Went 10-4 and finished the season ranked
2012 - Was our worst season in recent memory going 7-6
2011- We were a top 5 team with an 11-2 record but were bowl ineligible.

And I mean before that we were consistently one of the best teams in the country. I can't wait for this season to start so we can get action.

USC is a great, great program. But in the last 20 years, you just can't put them in that top 4 for putting dread in ones heart. And with they coaches they have in place, I don't see anything changing for another decade with those teams.

I don't know if that's true.

In the early 2000s the Trojans were a feared team year in and year out.

My Top Ten

1 USC
2.ND
3 Ohio
4. Bama
5.Michigan
6.OU
7.Texas
8. Miamii
9 Nebraska
10. FSU

(08-26-2016 03:55 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-26-2016 03:13 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 08:16 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ranking...nkings.php

those rankings are crap

Georgia above Miami?

Minnesota above FSU??

Sorry but that's laughable. Change your formula cfbdatawarehouse.com

I want to see something that takes DOMINANCE into account, and weighs DYNASTIES as an important factor

Georgia has to be the only major SEC school to not win a National Championship during the BCS years. Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Tennessee, LSU, all won Nattys

Minnesota should firmly be behind the Florida schools and many SEC schools

As I was told -- football has been played for more than 10 years, son. If you are advocating an all-time ranking, then yes, Minnesota ranks ahead of your pet schools. If you want to rank recent success, then you have to start qualifying what is RECENT in your rankings. But when I pointed out that RECENTLY (this century) Ohio State is FAR better than Oklahoma, I was told I have to use all-time.

Son?? Trying to get personal? Lol

Minnesota has a great, historic football past, including 4 National Championships. They have really dropped off though and gone dormant. They've only finished in the top 25 twice in the last 30 years. Their last NC in '60, they lost their last 2 of 3 games, including the Rose Bowl to Washington. Lucky for them, the Championship was chosen BEFORE the bowls that year.

My premise is....I don't believe that past continues to hold water when comparing to the competitiveness of schools that have been dominant in the last 30 years. The game modernized with speed in the 80s and early 90s, and teams started having to win National and Conference Championship games. Today we have a playoff. Besides the regular season, Alabama had to win 3 crucial do or die games to win the National Championship this year. Minnesota never had to play in this type of competitive atmosphere.

I respect what they've done, but how long do you hold their hand because they were good in the 30s? I don't think they've accomplished as much as FSU, Florida, or Miami. Miami may have had the best team EVER in 2001...FSU finished in the top 4 for 14 straight years!! The Florida teams have accomplished feats that these traditional teams just haven't.

So why do you use the word "all-time" then, EvilVodka? Why not just say "10 best programs today"? That's what you are really arguing when you want to just emphasize the last 30 years.

As a PSU fan, we've been a top 20 team if you're only looking at the past 10 years. Move back to a 20 year lens, and we've only been a top 15 program. But if you go back to the past fifty years, we're easily a top 8 team. And if you go all the way back, then we land about where our overall win total says we land...about #10. It all matters about how many years you want to include...but you can't call it "all-time" if you aren't going to go back to 1896 or whatever. :)

there's more to rankings than just wins. Penn St for instance has only 4 national championships- with 2 being in 1911 and 1912. Only 2 in the poll era.

It would be interesting to see the info since 1975. The two most significant changes that really give us the game that is played today were in full effect: integration and the 85 scholarship rule.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

(08-27-2016 07:26 AM)shere khan Wrote:  It would be interesting to see the info since 1975. The two most significant changes that really give us the game that is played today were in full effect: integration and the 85 scholarship rule.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

Good point. Or look at 1978 or 1982, after the 1A - 1AA split was complete.

(08-27-2016 07:26 AM)shere khan Wrote:  It would be interesting to see the info since 1975. The two most significant changes that really give us the game that is played today were in full effect: integration and the 85 scholarship rule.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

My personal preference would be to date it from the return to two platoon football in 1965. That is roughly fifty years, and takes out the complicating impact of WWII and its aftermath. While I enjoyed watching great two way players like John David Crow, very few fans alive today have any sense for how different the game was then.

But despite that sea change, many of the top teams from the past fifty years are the same as the ones from the fifty years before that.

(08-25-2016 06:36 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:51 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:50 PM)stever20 Wrote:  well looking at the all time top 10 by winning pct...
Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio St, Oklahoma, Alabama, Texas, USC, Nebraska, Penn St, and Tennessee...
so of the ops top 10- 6 are in the top 10 already...
he included the 3 Florida Schools along with LSU...
just looking-
Florida St, LSU, Miami, and Florida are all in the top 15 all time.

for those that don't think LSU belongs- they are #12 all time even on straight up wins.
he left out Texas, Penn St, Michigan and Tennessee

It's a pretty valid list quite frankly.

Yup!

It trades one or two metrics which tend to discount success in the first half of last century.

This is just a perception thing, but I would put Tennessee in the same tier as Texas, Georgia, Clemson and Auburn, with Michigan and Penn St a little higher. Then there is big dropoff. So a 2nd ten might look like

11. Penn St
12. Mich
13. Texas
14. Tenn
15. Georgia
16. Clemson
17. Auburn
18. Mich State
19. Washington
20. Georgia Tech

I'd move Auburn up a bit. 2 undisputed National Championships, one complete rob job in 2004. A near miss a couple of years ago. An arguable case for a Natl Championship in 1983 too. Then there was an undefeated season in 1993. And if one wants to look way back, 1913 could also be conceivably claimed too. If Auburn claimed things like Alabama did, they'd be claiming 9 national championships. Lots of SEC championships too. 11 top 10 finishes since 1983.

Not sure how Georgia or Clemson really beats that. Tennessee might but only if one really highlights some pretty old history. And Auburn wins the head to head.

(08-27-2016 11:43 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 06:36 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:51 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-25-2016 04:50 PM)stever20 Wrote:  well looking at the all time top 10 by winning pct...
Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio St, Oklahoma, Alabama, Texas, USC, Nebraska, Penn St, and Tennessee...
so of the ops top 10- 6 are in the top 10 already...
he included the 3 Florida Schools along with LSU...
just looking-
Florida St, LSU, Miami, and Florida are all in the top 15 all time.

for those that don't think LSU belongs- they are #12 all time even on straight up wins.
he left out Texas, Penn St, Michigan and Tennessee

It's a pretty valid list quite frankly.

Yup!

It trades one or two metrics which tend to discount success in the first half of last century.

This is just a perception thing, but I would put Tennessee in the same tier as Texas, Georgia, Clemson and Auburn, with Michigan and Penn St a little higher. Then there is big dropoff. So a 2nd ten might look like

11. Penn St
12. Mich
13. Texas
14. Tenn
15. Georgia
16. Clemson
17. Auburn
18. Mich State
19. Washington
20. Georgia Tech

I'd move Auburn up a bit. 2 undisputed National Championships, one complete rob job in 2004. A near miss a couple of years ago. An arguable case for a Natl Championship in 1983 too. Then there was an undefeated season in 1993. And if one wants to look way back, 1913 could also be conceivably claimed too. If Auburn claimed things like Alabama did, they'd be claiming 9 national championships. Lots of SEC championships too. 11 top 10 finishes since 1983.

Not sure how Georgia or Clemson really beats that. Tennessee might but only if one really highlights some pretty old history. And Auburn wins the head to head.

Works for me. Move Auburn up to #14. Just behind Texas, and ahead of Tennessee.

(08-27-2016 11:04 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-27-2016 07:26 AM)shere khan Wrote:  It would be interesting to see the info since 1975. The two most significant changes that really give us the game that is played today were in full effect: integration and the 85 scholarship rule.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

My personal preference would be to date it from the return to two platoon football in 1965. That is roughly fifty years, and takes out the complicating impact of WWII and its aftermath. While I enjoyed watching great two way players like John David Crow, very few fans alive today have any sense for how different the game was then.

But despite that sea change, many of the top teams from the past fifty years are the same as the ones from the fifty years before that.

If you look at the polls after the mid 60s, you get the same programs-USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Michigan, Ohio St., Penn St., Notre Dame and Alabama. Then in the 80s the Florida schools join them.
There was a site that did the AP rankings by decade.
60s when you still had a Navy challenging for the national championship (but things changed at the end of the decade)
1. Alabama
2. Texas
3. Arkansas
4. Ohio St.
5. Notre Dame
6. USC
7. LSU
8. Penn St.
9. Missouri
10. UCLA
11. Ole Miss (from 1st part of decade)
12. Purdue (also from 1st part)

80s
1. Nebraska
2. Miami
3. Michigan
4. Oklahoma
5. UCLA
6. Penn St.
7. Auburn
8. Florida St.
9. UGA
10. Clemson
11. Alabama
12. Ohio St./USC tied

00s
1. Ohio St.
2. Texas
3. USC
4. Oklahoma
5. LSU
6. Florida
7. Georgia
8. Virginia Tech
9. Boise St.
10. Miami
11. Auburn
12. Oregon/Alabama tied

(08-27-2016 01:55 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  So why do you use the word "all-time" then, EvilVodka? Why not just say "10 best programs today"? That's what you are really arguing when you want to just emphasize the last 30 years.

As a PSU fan, we've been a top 20 team if you're only looking at the past 10 years. Move back to a 20 year lens, and we've only been a top 15 program. But if you go back to the past fifty years, we're easily a top 8 team. And if you go all the way back, then we land about where our overall win total says we land...about #10. It all matters about how many years you want to include...but you can't call it "all-time" if you aren't going to go back to 1896 or whatever. :)

So who do you want to put Penn State ahead of in my rankings? I'd give the nod and put them ahead of LSU

Probably not ahead of Nebraska....what about ahead of Florida? I don't think so...

I'll say Penn State is one of the hardest schools to gauge in these rankings. I don't think I've seen a school with so many undefeated seasons and no share of a National Championship. How many NCs does Penn State have with a playoff? Do they win in '94? That's just sadly part of the dumbth of the sport

What I don't see from Penn State is a LEGENDARY team....Nebraska has 1995, Texas has 2005...Does Penn State have that team that really left a mark on the college football landscape?

I don't see Big 10 dominance either. Nebraska used to roll through the Big 8. Spurrier had the Gators mauling other SEC teams. Penn State has been in the Big 10 for a little while now....how are they faring?

(08-27-2016 10:17 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(08-27-2016 01:55 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  So why do you use the word "all-time" then, EvilVodka? Why not just say "10 best programs today"? That's what you are really arguing when you want to just emphasize the last 30 years.

As a PSU fan, we've been a top 20 team if you're only looking at the past 10 years. Move back to a 20 year lens, and we've only been a top 15 program. But if you go back to the past fifty years, we're easily a top 8 team. And if you go all the way back, then we land about where our overall win total says we land...about #10. It all matters about how many years you want to include...but you can't call it "all-time" if you aren't going to go back to 1896 or whatever. :)

So who do you want to put Penn State ahead of in my rankings? I'd give the nod and put them ahead of LSU

Probably not ahead of Nebraska....what about ahead of Florida? I don't think so...

I'll say Penn State is one of the hardest schools to gauge in these rankings. I don't think I've seen a school with so many undefeated seasons and no share of a National Championship. How many NCs does Penn State have with a playoff? Do they win in '94? That's just sadly part of the dumbth of the sport

What I don't see from Penn State is a LEGENDARY team....Nebraska has 1995, Texas has 2005...Does Penn State have that team that really left a mark on the college football landscape?

I don't see Big 10 dominance either. Nebraska used to roll through the Big 8. Spurrier had the Gators mauling other SEC teams. Penn State has been in the Big 10 for a little while now....how are they faring?

In 23 seasons in the B1G, Penn State has won 112 league games. That puts them fourth in the conference during that period, behind Ohio State (147), Michigan (121) and Wisconsin (115). That's not bad company. Not dominant, but not bad.