It's called fact check, not conclusion check. Apparently you can throw out all sorts of facts and let people inevitably draw their own erroneous conclusions based on that one pitiful, useless little fact. Of course, it's mostly just pandering to the base, they're the ones who are already going to vote for the guy anyway.

(07-23-2016 10:28 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:10 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:03 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 12:59 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 12:51 PM)Paul M Wrote:  So Trump said as overall crime rates have fallen, in x number of cities rates have gone up.

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what john has a problem with. He gave both stats and john is complaining that he gave one and without the other, it's misleading.

I'll just assume john didn't hear him speak. Maybe got some misleading sound-bite from some partisan leftwing blog, twit, feed or whatever.

My "soundbite" is being generally educated and knowing that crime rates are at historic lows and have been consistently falling over the last couple of decades and have fallen under Obama. 1000s of stats say that. Trump focused on one of the few that doesn't say this. on top of that 1st gen immigrants commit crime at lower rates than those born in the USA. hence the reason his comments were misleading. I find it pathetic that I actually have to explain this to you guys.

Incorrect. 100% of illegal immigrants are commiting crime every day. The "other crimes" that they commit are going above and beyond the other bull**** we have to deal with by "natives". Why would you be OK with ANY more criminals?

so you are just a bigot. when your argument states that no matter how much the data supports or disagrees with my opinion that X race/religion etc. is bad, I will still claim X race is bad...that's the literal definition of bigotry.

it's a troll talking point and no legitimate scientific paper would ever present the stats that way. not even trump used that talking point.

thanks for being your stereotypical republican by framing your argument where regardless of what the data says, it will still have the same opinion.

How is any of what I said bigoted? Is illegal immigration not illegal?

you are faulting people who were born into a s**ty situation who risked their lives and faced incredible hardship to make a better lives for themselves as being criminals. you are playing into the same old bigoted bullcrap of having a phobia and being demeaning towards immigrants.

the worst part is that even if they are upstanding citizens who don't commit a single crime, work hard, contribute to society, etc. there is no way they are better than the trailer trash alcoholic who can't hold a job and is a net drain on society.

oh and you forgot that said stat applies to both legal and nonlegal immigrants.

so yes you have earned the title of bigoted.

(07-23-2016 10:29 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  It's called fact check, not conclusion check. Apparently you can throw out all sorts of facts and let people inevitably draw their own erroneous conclusions based on that one pitiful, useless little fact. Of course, it's mostly just pandering to the base, they're the ones who are already going to vote for the guy anyway.

The posters on this thread are pathetic. if you are willing to support highly misleading stats that don't tell the full story then you are everything that is wrong with this country.

it's funny how all the cons are too dumb to realize that at no point did I say trump's facts were wrong. just that they were misleading.

True or false... Illegal immigration is illegal?

You still weren't responding to Hood-rich. Really ought to stop calling him a bigot. If you commit the crime of being here illegally, you're a criminal. Not a murderer, not a rapist, an illegal. It's a crime. You can still otherwise be a good person. Or a bad one.

But all that other bs in your post... wasn't anything you got from Hoods post.

(07-23-2016 09:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 01:43 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 12:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  johns having a hard time finding one of the true facts that trump said, and spinning it in a way that could be construed as misleading.

waiting. snowflake. we're waiting......

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(07-23-2016 10:37 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  True or false... Illegal immigration is illegal?

no self respecting news organization, research group, etc. would ever apply the crime stats like that. can you not see how this is a troll stat? people only resort to troll stats when they are wrong.

(07-23-2016 11:01 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:37 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  True or false... Illegal immigration is illegal?

no self respecting news organization, research group, etc. would ever apply the crime stats like that. can you not see how this is a troll stat? people only resort to troll stats when they are wrong.

So partisan hacks refusing to use proper language makes someone who will wrong. Amazing.

(07-23-2016 11:08 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:01 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:37 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  True or false... Illegal immigration is illegal?

no self respecting news organization, research group, etc. would ever apply the crime stats like that. can you not see how this is a troll stat? people only resort to troll stats when they are wrong.

So partisan hacks refusing to use proper language makes someone who will wrong. Amazing.

um...what?

people believing 1% proves correct what 99% say is incorrect is what makes them partisan hacks.

Organizations refusing to call illegal immigrants illegal doesn't change that they are illegal. Even if 99% refuse to call them illegal. 99% can be partisan hacks.

If only 1% called them illegal, they would be correct.

And not bigots.

(07-23-2016 11:19 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The facts may have been true but that doesnt mean they werent misleading. For example, he said cop deaths are up and used a percentage for effect but if he had used the actual numbers it doesnt sound as fantastic. Also, he used crime numbers which happen to be up this year but over the past twenty years are actually going down.

Is that like when the left talks about how more AA's are shot by cops by whites but leave out that per police contact whites are more likely to be shot?

I get it. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I just hope you're willing tocast as critical an eye to both sides.

Trying to Hide the Rise of Violent Crime

FBI: Murders and other violent crimes increased last year

Violent crime rises for second consecutive year

(07-23-2016 11:35 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:30 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:24 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:22 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:21 AM)john01992 Wrote:  when facts are accurate but highly misleading and distort the truth...yes.

how can that be acceptable for anyone?

What Hillary said was not accurate. How can that be acceptable to you?

I thought we were talking about what trump said?

seriously, how come libs get called out for deflecting but it's perfectly acceptable for you.

are you unwilling to talk about the Trump speech because this issue is so indefensible for you?

if you are completely unwilling to discuss the first part of your last post, either admit you are a troll or shut the hell up.

Its not deflecting when you come on here and admit what Trump said was true, but then try to spin it as if it was misleading. Its either true or not.

It was true.

You, on the other hand, are a hypocrite because you want to act all butthurt when Trump presents facts you hate, but are silent when Hillary is proven to be a liar.

If you want to be the forum truth police, yo uhave to acknowledge when facts are true (Trumps Speech) and acknowledge when someone is a liar (Hillary).

Otherwise, why are you even participating. We have enough lefty loons pimping the Hillary lies and fluffing the Obama failures as it is.

Oh, and you know the left wing rags are especially butthurt when the only fact they shot down of Trumps was because they changed what Trump said in order to shoot it down. But desperate times calls for desperate measures.

if you are unwilling to admit that people can take selectively picked stats to paint a misleading picture, then you are too dumb to have a conversation with.

the fact that you keep trying to bring clinton into the discussion is proof that you can't defend Trump.

Gawd, you're a toothless moron.

My friend.

What public policy, regarding this or any other issue in the current field of vision, has Trump passed, influenced, or stood behind as a lawmaker/legislator?!?

(07-24-2016 12:32 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:19 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The facts may have been true but that doesnt mean they werent misleading. For example, he said cop deaths are up and used a percentage for effect but if he had used the actual numbers it doesnt sound as fantastic. Also, he used crime numbers which happen to be up this year but over the past twenty years are actually going down.

Is that like when the left talks about how more AA's are shot by cops by whites but leave out that per police contact whites are more likely to be shot?

I get it. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I just hope you're willing tocast as critical an eye to both sides.

I'm sure the left does the same sort of misleading crap. One has to take all of it with a big grain of salt.

Trump's new ad is great!!! 24 minutes of clapping. That's 33%!

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTru...4460569604

Illegal immigration is a crime... Therefore an illegal immigrant is a criminal because he is committing a crime.


Sent from #ClutchCity using Tapatalk

(07-24-2016 08:02 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(07-24-2016 12:32 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 11:19 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The facts may have been true but that doesnt mean they werent misleading. For example, he said cop deaths are up and used a percentage for effect but if he had used the actual numbers it doesnt sound as fantastic. Also, he used crime numbers which happen to be up this year but over the past twenty years are actually going down.

Is that like when the left talks about how more AA's are shot by cops by whites but leave out that per police contact whites are more likely to be shot?
I get it. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I just hope you're willing to cast as critical an eye to both sides.

I'm sure the left does the same sort of misleading crap. One has to take all of it with a big grain of salt.

Yes. Whatever your side, hold it to the same standard with equal vigor as you do the other. We used to have different opinions, but each side accepted the same facts. Now each side insists on having its own facts.

(07-23-2016 10:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:28 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:10 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 10:03 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 12:59 PM)john01992 Wrote:  My "soundbite" is being generally educated and knowing that crime rates are at historic lows and have been consistently falling over the last couple of decades and have fallen under Obama. 1000s of stats say that. Trump focused on one of the few that doesn't say this. on top of that 1st gen immigrants commit crime at lower rates than those born in the USA. hence the reason his comments were misleading. I find it pathetic that I actually have to explain this to you guys.

Incorrect. 100% of illegal immigrants are commiting crime every day. The "other crimes" that they commit are going above and beyond the other bull**** we have to deal with by "natives". Why would you be OK with ANY more criminals?

so you are just a bigot. when your argument states that no matter how much the data supports or disagrees with my opinion that X race/religion etc. is bad, I will still claim X race is bad...that's the literal definition of bigotry.

it's a troll talking point and no legitimate scientific paper would ever present the stats that way. not even trump used that talking point.

thanks for being your stereotypical republican by framing your argument where regardless of what the data says, it will still have the same opinion.

How is any of what I said bigoted? Is illegal immigration not illegal?

you are faulting people who were born into a s**ty situation who risked their lives and faced incredible hardship to make a better lives for themselves as being criminals. you are playing into the same old bigoted bullcrap of having a phobia and being demeaning towards immigrants.

the worst part is that even if they are upstanding citizens who don't commit a single crime, work hard, contribute to society, etc. there is no way they are better than the trailer trash alcoholic who can't hold a job and is a net drain on society.

oh and you forgot that said stat applies to both legal and nonlegal immigrants.

so yes you have earned the title of bigoted.

So..Illegally entering the country and defrauding the US taxpayers are illegal acts.? OK.

(07-23-2016 12:59 PM)john01992 Wrote:  [
My "soundbite" is being generally educated and knowing that crime rates are at historic lows and have been consistently falling over the last couple of decades and have fallen under Obama. 1000s of stats say that. Trump focused on one of the few that doesn't say this. on top of that 1st gen immigrants commit crime at lower rates than those born in the USA. hence the reason his comments were misleading. I find it pathetic that I actually have to explain this to you guys.
?

Here's why YOUR stats is misleading, even if true (which is questionable)

1) you're including legal immigrants in a conversation about illegal immigrants. The two are not the same. The former spent a lot of money to come here and were highly vetted. The illegal immigrant was not vetted at all and often is exploited and FORCED to do illegal things and commit crimes in order to get here... The 1st generation immigrant wants to be here and wants to have a family here. The illegal often just wants 'money' to send back home to their families. They aren't here for the same reasons... They aren't the same 'people'
2) crimes drop when you stop arresting people for those crimes. possession of small amounts of me used to be illegal and strictly enforced. Now it isn't. Possession of small quantities is up, but 'arrests' are down. This is the sort of argument that democrats hate when it's applied to the rise in healthcare costs... Because it depends on what your goal and perspective is
3) Even if we ignore the difference between legal and illegal immigrants (which is foolish) If citizens commit crimes at a 1% rate and 1st generation immigrants commit them at a 1/2% rate... Surely you aren't suggesting that we should kick out citizens? More importantly, that 1/2 of 1% (or whatever it is) is still an INCREASE in crimes here. They may be 'safer' than the average citizen, but unless you're suggesting replacing citizens with them, you're still adding criminals.
4) your stat about 1st gen is probably true as it applies to legal immigrants. It's a big deal and difficult to get here legally and they have been vetted... But many of the home grown terrorists and shooters are their children, who have the 'home' connection, but may not remember (or know) the reasons they left their home. And your stats just ignore that

The bottom line is that figures don't lie, but liars figure. You show the stats that support your position and downplay the ones that don't. It's not misleading just because it isn't a lay-down, irrefutable showing of cause and effect... Because almost NOTHING ever is.

(07-23-2016 10:55 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 09:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 01:43 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-23-2016 12:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  johns having a hard time finding one of the true facts that trump said, and spinning it in a way that could be construed as misleading.

waiting. snowflake. we're waiting......

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