(07-13-2016 08:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  A lot of these guys across Division One all know each other and would probably be hesitant to cut off good friends and destroy relationships at lower schools in chase of the almighty dollar.


In line with that, they may need a job at one of those schools in the future. College presidents typically don't stay that long.

(07-13-2016 05:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

In your opinion, what constitutes an athletic department with no business being in DI?

Length of time in DI? Facilities? Operating at bare minimum?

All of the above?

What criteria would you use to sort out the bottom one-hundred?

All of the above except length of time in DI.

Presbyterian College is a perfect example of a DII school with a D-I classification.

if there was a split it would likely be what organizations such as sporting news(to name one) refer to as high major conferences. The P5, and to name a few, AAC, BE,MWC, A10 MVC and some academically prominent leagues that are also competitive in the non revenue sports and have high endowments (for the most part) IE Ivy, Patriot

(07-13-2016 07:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Breaking off FBS from D1 would be the easiest way to create a new division. It would just be going from a subdivision to an actual division. I could see bringing along the Big East and ACC. But it might make more sense to come to a negotiated agreement with the G5 to become hybrids. Then the new division could expand their G5 conferences to take in most of the valuable basketball schools in their regions. That would end the need to add entire non-FBS basketball conferences when really only a handful of schools in those basketball conferences have real value. Doing that would supercharge the G5 basketball leagues making them much more valuable to TV and more worthy of sticking with the P5. If each G5 took 6 basketball schools, that's 30 additional basketball schools. That would put the new division at just over 160 schools for basketball. If the P5 each took a pair, that would bump the number to over 170. That should be more than enough to put together a really entertaining 64 team tournament.

If it did become an FBS split and to stay at the top level you have to sponsor football it could convince the G5 to go hybrid.

The SBC which already is a basketball hybrid would most likely agree to take Wichita State and Florida Gulf Coast in, helping their division structure.

I don't know where you go with some of the other conferences like the Big East or WCC. Saying only a couple of members have all the value that is not accurate with those conferences. It's more true in the Atlantic 10.

P5 & G5 make 125 schools. Plus add non-FB conferences to the mix.

Big East (10)
Atlantic 10 (14)-UMass
Horizon (10)
West Coast (10)-BYU
Big West (9)-Hawaii

A D1 of about 180 schools. New Mexico State would have to leave the WAC and join the Big West to stay at the top level. Wichita State make a move to the SBC. Some of the other valuable MVC schools (Bradley, Loyola) to the Horizon.

Big East possibly takes in Army/Navy as their 11th and 12th teams.

Then with only 15 conferences in a new march madness their would only be 15 automatic bids with more at-larges for everyone. Eliminate the play-in game and the first round blow outs against low major schools.

(07-13-2016 08:48 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  if there was a split it would likely be what organizations such as sporting news(to name one) refer to as high major conferences. The P5, and to name a few, AAC, BE,MWC, A10 MVC and some academically prominent leagues that are also competitive in the non revenue sports and have high endowments (for the most part) IE Ivy, Patriot

MVC would be in a difficult spot because they are an FCS football conference.

To keep the purpose of shaking the the little guy, FCS leagues almost have to be excluded. The Ivy league for that reason should be also excluded.

I do see where it makes sense to take some non-FB sponsoring conferences, some for the value and some because they have FBS members.

No split. Obviously.

But I'm OK taking out the very bottom of the bottom: schools with high school gyms!

If it is my guess here and not just a scenario to be thrown out, the P5 will have some more expansion before a split happens. This I think is almost guaranteed.

B12 (Houston, Cincinnati) (12)
B1G (Virginia, Kansas) (16)
ACC (UConn) (14)
B12 (Memphis) (12)
AAC (ODU, Army) (10)
CUSA (Texas State) (14)
SBC (James Madison) (10)

Then each P5 has a G5 pairing partner in its geography:

B1G-MAC
ACC-AAC
B12-CUSA
SEC-SBC
PAC-MWC

Extend this pairing principal to P5 and non-FB conferences:

B1G-Big East
ACC-Ivy League
B12-MVC
SEC-???
PAC-WCC

In this case its the Atlantic 10 which is stuck because the Ivy League gets the call with their academics and all sport strength. Some of the other conferences though are willing to pitch in to save their more valuable members.

Big East (St. Louis, Navy) (12)
MVC (Dayton, Belmont) (12)
MAC (UMass, Army, George Mason, VCU) (16)

Then the WCC at 10 finds itself a smaller conference in the new D1 and is willing to take in Hawaii and New Mexico State to get to 12.

The new membership totals for D1 (basketball members)

B1G 16
ACC 14
SEC 14
B12 12
PAC 12
MAC 16
CUSA 14
MWC 11
SBC 12
AAC 8
BE 12
WCC 12
MVC 12
IVY 8

That's 173 schools in basketball with nearly all the significant mid majors included.

Schools like Missouri State and the Ivy's would get a pass that allows them to play football at the FCS level while at the top level for other sports.

(07-13-2016 06:14 PM)rokamortis Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 06:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think there will be an official split. They will just raise the spending requirements driving about 100 schools out. The 150 or so in the middle will go along because of the threat of an official split.

I don't see a split where the richest conferences go just for anti-competitive reasons. But I could see a true DI where they make teams play FBS football. So in line with your comment, many schools don't want to spend that money.

There are several ADs from schools without football, mentioned if they do not add football before a split? It would be hard to become of the in crowd. Mostly it came from the Big West schools, and then we are seeing UTRGV and Wichita State mention that they want FBS. MVFC wanted to merge for football only with the WAC before the split.
Rumors that Gonzaga, Seattle, Denver and some Bakersfield State on them adding football. If BYU does go back to the MWC, they might want Gonzaga come with them. The only way Gonzaga be accepted if they add football.
Several FCS and D2 schools are doing some major work on their facilities for the split.

(07-13-2016 10:51 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If it is my guess here and not just a scenario to be thrown out, the P5 will have some more expansion before a split happens. This I think is almost guaranteed.

B12 (Houston, Cincinnati) (12)
B1G (Virginia, Kansas) (16)
ACC (UConn) (14)
B12 (Memphis) (12)
AAC (ODU, Army) (10)
CUSA (Texas State) (14)
SBC (James Madison) (10)

Then each P5 has a G5 pairing partner in its geography:

B1G-MAC
ACC-AAC
B12-CUSA
SEC-SBC
PAC-MWC

Extend this pairing principal to P5 and non-FB conferences:

B1G-Big East
ACC-Ivy League
B12-MVC
SEC-???
PAC-WCC

In this case its the Atlantic 10 which is stuck because the Ivy League gets the call with their academics and all sport strength. Some of the other conferences though are willing to pitch in to save their more valuable members.

Big East (St. Louis, Navy) (12)
MVC (Dayton, Belmont) (12)
MAC (UMass, Army, George Mason, VCU) (16)

Then the WCC at 10 finds itself a smaller conference in the new D1 and is willing to take in Hawaii and New Mexico State to get to 12.

The new membership totals for D1 (basketball members)

B1G 16
ACC 14
SEC 14
B12 12
PAC 12
MAC 16
CUSA 14
MWC 11
SBC 12
AAC 8
BE 12
WCC 12
MVC 12
IVY 8

That's 173 schools in basketball with nearly all the significant mid majors included.

Schools like Missouri State and the Ivy's would get a pass that allows them to play football at the FCS level while at the top level for other sports.

I would throw in the MVFC/Summitt Dakota schools and the Big Sky who have the stronger football from the FCS to join. Big Sky schools also are affiliates to some sports in the PAC 12 already.

But, some of the Big West ADs hinted that the split will leave the basketball schools behind. ACC already rejected Georgetown, St. John's and Villanova because they are not even serious about football. Why would they want Villanova win the men's basketball tournament again?

(07-13-2016 10:51 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If it is my guess here and not just a scenario to be thrown out, the P5 will have some more expansion before a split happens. This I think is almost guaranteed.

B12 (Houston, Cincinnati) (12)
B1G (Virginia, Kansas) (16)
ACC (UConn) (14)
B12 (Memphis) (12)
AAC (ODU, Army) (10)
CUSA (Texas State) (14)
SBC (James Madison) (10)

Then each P5 has a G5 pairing partner in its geography:

B1G-MAC
ACC-AAC
B12-CUSA
SEC-SBC
PAC-MWC

Extend this pairing principal to P5 and non-FB conferences:

B1G-Big East
ACC-Ivy League
B12-MVC
SEC-???
PAC-WCC

In this case its the Atlantic 10 which is stuck because the Ivy League gets the call with their academics and all sport strength. Some of the other conferences though are willing to pitch in to save their more valuable members.

Big East (St. Louis, Navy) (12)
MVC (Dayton, Belmont) (12)
MAC (UMass, Army, George Mason, VCU) (16)

Then the WCC at 10 finds itself a smaller conference in the new D1 and is willing to take in Hawaii and New Mexico State to get to 12.

The new membership totals for D1 (basketball members)

B1G 16
ACC 14
SEC 14
B12 12
PAC 12
MAC 16
CUSA 14
MWC 11
SBC 12
AAC 8
BE 12
WCC 12
MVC 12
IVY 8

That's 173 schools in basketball with nearly all the significant mid majors included.

Schools like Missouri State and the Ivy's would get a pass that allows them to play football at the FCS level while at the top level for other sports.

That is a mess. First the AAC and MW are head-and-shoulders above the other 3 G5 conferences. Second the BE, even without football, is way, way, way better than the other conferences in that list. The BE is also more closely aligned with the ACC than the B1G.

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

(07-14-2016 09:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

Makes sense.

The main concern would be the basketball tournament will basically become the basketball version of the CFP. But I do agree in principle that the leagues / teams should pay the freight and then tournament participants / their conferences can retain the actual profits.

(07-14-2016 09:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

Not a bad idea at all.

(07-14-2016 09:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

That would work. But the NCAA would fight to the death to keep it from happening. The power of the NCAA officers and bureaucrats derives from their control over the March Madness money, how much they distribute to the schools, which schools get it, how much the NCAA keeps for itself, how easy it is for the NCAA to inflate its own budgets and salaries because the overhead isn't coming directly from the schools' own pockets... all of that is the NCAA's lifeblood.

If the NCAA became pay-as-you-go for each school, the NCAA headquarters would have a lot less power and would face far greater scrutiny from the members. Emmert & Co. won't let that happen unless the P5 is on the very brink of leaving and this becomes the only way for the NCAA to survive at all.

When P5 conferences each gets to 16 teams, t will happen. There will be no football independents in this division!

(07-14-2016 12:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-14-2016 09:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

That would work. But the NCAA would fight to the death to keep it from happening. The power of the NCAA officers and bureaucrats derives from their control over the March Madness money, how much they distribute to the schools, which schools get it, how much the NCAA keeps for itself, how easy it is for the NCAA to inflate its own budgets and salaries because the overhead isn't coming directly from the schools' own pockets... all of that is the NCAA's lifeblood.

If the NCAA became pay-as-you-go for each school, the NCAA headquarters would have a lot less power and would face far greater scrutiny from the members. Emmert & Co. won't let that happen unless the P5 is on the very brink of leaving and this becomes the only way for the NCAA to survive at all.

I think we creep closer to that every day.

(07-14-2016 12:44 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-14-2016 12:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-14-2016 09:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

That would work. But the NCAA would fight to the death to keep it from happening. The power of the NCAA officers and bureaucrats derives from their control over the March Madness money, how much they distribute to the schools, which schools get it, how much the NCAA keeps for itself, how easy it is for the NCAA to inflate its own budgets and salaries because the overhead isn't coming directly from the schools' own pockets... all of that is the NCAA's lifeblood.

If the NCAA became pay-as-you-go for each school, the NCAA headquarters would have a lot less power and would face far greater scrutiny from the members. Emmert & Co. won't let that happen unless the P5 is on the very brink of leaving and this becomes the only way for the NCAA to survive at all.

I think we creep closer to that every day.

I don't think thats the case at all. Most of the complaining about the NCAA is from coaches who would still have the similar rules in place if the P5 ran themselves.

The schools that were d1-aa will returm to d1-aa

(07-14-2016 12:37 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  When P5 conferences each gets to 16 teams, t will happen. There will be no football independents in this division!

First P5 needs to become P4. In the process, each conference will grow to 18 or 20 schools. Some in ACC or Big 12 will be left behind. Schools in danger are BC, Wake Forest, Iowa State, Kansas State, Baylor and TCU. School that are definitely to be asked to join P4 are Notre Dame (full member including football), BYU, Air Force, Navy, UConn and Cincinnati. Long shot are Colorado State, Nevada, UNLV, Army, Houston, USF and UCF.

Then there will be four conferences, eight divisions. Easy for the playoff.

(07-14-2016 01:24 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(07-14-2016 12:44 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-14-2016 12:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-14-2016 09:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 05:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I voted Most of D-I simply because it's the closest to solving what the real problem is.


The real problem that most of the upper half of D-I (including G5 schools and the better basketball conferences) is not a football/basketball divide or a P5/G5 divide......it's the fact that there's a significant number of schools who have no business in D-I who made the move to cash in on March Madness money. These D-I in name only schools haven't invested in their programs and are happy just to cash their NCAA check every year.

There's at least 100 programs currently in D-I that have absolutely no business being there. That's where the problem is.

My solution to that problem - and it is a real problem - is to stop funding the NCAA through the NCAAT. With the minimal dues required to be in D-I, there might as well be none at all. If there were sizable dues, commensurate with the actual cost of funding D-I activities (probably at least $1 million) then I think the question of who "belongs" in D-I will sort itself out.

As long as there is "free money" available to schools, many will take it, even if it means competing at a level way above their heads. Turn off that spigot and see how many schools drop down in class.

That would work. But the NCAA would fight to the death to keep it from happening. The power of the NCAA officers and bureaucrats derives from their control over the March Madness money, how much they distribute to the schools, which schools get it, how much the NCAA keeps for itself, how easy it is for the NCAA to inflate its own budgets and salaries because the overhead isn't coming directly from the schools' own pockets... all of that is the NCAA's lifeblood.

If the NCAA became pay-as-you-go for each school, the NCAA headquarters would have a lot less power and would face far greater scrutiny from the members. Emmert & Co. won't let that happen unless the P5 is on the very brink of leaving and this becomes the only way for the NCAA to survive at all.

I think we creep closer to that every day.

I don't think thats the case at all. Most of the complaining about the NCAA is from coaches who would still have the similar rules in place if the P5 ran themselves.

The coaches might be the ones publicly complaining but trust me when I say that there is no love loss between AD's and school administration and the NCAA. They are the ones who have to deal with the ever-growing NCAA bureaucracy directly, not the coaches.The reason the coaches are the ones doing it in public is because they have the bully pulpit at most schools.