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RE: Informal internet vote on the U of North Dakota's new nickaname
(11-19-2015 01:36 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: (11-19-2015 01:22 PM)bullet Wrote: (11-19-2015 12:46 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: (11-19-2015 11:53 AM)MplsBison Wrote: (11-19-2015 11:48 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: Well now that is done, who will the PC police go after next. Illinois Fighting Illini?
There have to be enough local people who want to fight.
That was UND's big problem. I think clearly Illinois doesn't have that problem, or it would've come up by now.
The reason why the Illini name has been allowed by the NCAA is because that was the nickname for Illinois state residents that fought in World War I (which is when the university started calling its teams the "Fighting Illini"). Contrary to popular belief, there isn't any "Illini" tribe, which is why the name itself hasn't come under scrutiny by the NCAA. However, the NCAA did effectively force the university to drop the use of Chief Illiniwek and other Native American imagery several years ago, where the NCAA would not allow the university to sponsor any NCAA events without eliminating the Chief. As much as the football and basketball-focused fans might have been willing to make that trade-off, the athletic department couldn't in good conscious kill the recruiting prospects of all of its other sports to retain the symbol.
Florida State is the other prominent example of a college using Native American imagery. They can use the Seminole name because they pay a licensing fee to the Seminole tribe for its use, so that passes NCAA muster. North Dakota was not able to come to that type of agreement with the Sioux.
There were definitely Illinois tribes. Don't know who told you there weren't. They were a major Algonquin group in the Midwest.
The nickname absolutely is associated with Native Americans, at least according to the University of Illinois (who would seem to be the authority): http://archives.library.illinois.edu/fea...illini.php
[b]When it was developed, did the term "Fighting Illini" refer to Native Americans?
The question is open to interpretation. The time period during which the "Fighting Illini" nickname developed coincided with the use of Native American imagery, usually in a romantic style. Therefore, it is not surprising that Native American imagery was sometimes associated with the Stadium Drive campaign and its slogan. Here are some examples.
•In Clarence Welsh's 1921 brochure, University of Illinois Memorial Stadium, the stadium is referred to (PDF, 114KB) as "the symbol of a new united, fighting, aspiring tribe of Illini, who know how to honor their living heroes and venerate their dead."
•On the frontispiece of the brochure by Clarence Welsh (pdf 151 KB), a Native American is shown looking off to a cloud. The cloud includes a column which was originally proposed to stand at the north end of the stadium.
•Another stadium drive publication, The Illinois Stadium 'For Fighting Illini' (pdf, 69KB) shows a Native American chief presenting the stadium as a gift to the University, symbolized by the Library (now Altgeld Hall) carillon tower.
•The cover of the Stadium Souvenir Program, Dedication Homecoming 1924' (pdf, 1.28MB) contains two figures rising above the left corner of the Stadium. The drawings seem to subtly suggest a soldier in "doughboy" uniform behind which is a figure suggestive of a Native American, not dissimilar to Lorado Taft's statue of Blackhawk in Oregon, Illinois (jpg, 160KB).
•From the beginning of the Stadium campaign, there was an effort to connect an image of the Native American "Illini" to the University of Illinois students, athletes, and alumni. The Native Illini were characterized as brave individualists whose heritage was somehow passed directly to the Univeristy Illini "through the pioneers who fought them and learned to know them." This is vividly illustrated by three pages from Story of the Stadium, ca. 1920/21' (pdf, 272 KB).
•The connection between the term "Illini" and the original native inhabitants of the state continued for many decades as shown in the 1976/77 Reference Folder, a publication used for public information and new student recruitment(jpg, 867KB).
[/b]
I'm not copying the whole section, but it talks about being the Illini and other names such as "Indians" prior to WWI.
All of those instances are still referring to Native American images that the university used in connection with the nickname, which the school has removed entirely. What you are referring to is a group of Illinois-based tribes that were collectively called by European settlers as the "Illini" or "Illiniwek", but that wasn't the name that the Native Americans used for themselves. As a result, there simply isn't any "Illini" tribe itself (unlike the existence of the Seminole, Ute or Sioux tribes), which is why the nickname is allowed. The NCAA agreed with that distinction and they're the ones that brought up the issue in the first place (as they did explicitly force us to get rid of Chief Illinwek). As someone else mentioned, Iowa also used Native American images in connection with its Hawkeyes nickname for many years, as well, but since they got rid of those images and there isn't any actual "Hawkeye" tribe", there isn't any issue with that nickname.
You could say the same thing about Sioux. That is not their name for themselves. Its a name other tribes gave them, perhaps as an insult. Many of the tribes refuse to be known by it. Regardless, you are still naming it after a group of Native Americans. Maybe Illinois just had more clout than North Dakota, so the NCAA accepted the legalistic nonsense. Or maybe there are just fewer members of the Illinois Confederation still left alive.
Earlier you said there was no such thing as an Illinois tribe. That was clearly false. I think you are just trying to rationalize what your own school has done as being something different than North Dakota. Its not.
Not that I think it is anything like calling your team Redskins. But its not as clear as Warriors (I think its absurd Marquette felt the need to change from Warriors to avoid offense-the word was in use long before Europeans settled in America).
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Informal internet vote on the U of North Dakota's new nickaname
