(05-03-2015 10:01 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:53 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  This outcome was 100% certain. Really stupid thing to do.

Stupid idea, and we shouldn't encourage mindless acts of offensive behavior, but let's not mince words about who is at fault here.

Not sure if you're saying I'm mincing words. There are a whole list of people that are to blame here, and they begin with Pamela Geller, but it's not a short list, either.

No, they begin with the people who pulled the triggers. Geller deserves to fade into obscurity IMO, but she cannot be blamed for the violent response.

Let me ask you this ... if Geller went into the heart of ISIS - Raqqah, Syria - and had done this, would you believe she is stupid to have done this? If she did so while putting a lot of innocents at risk (including local police in this case), would you concede that point?

Geller is stupid. The gunman that pulled the trigger were evil. But, they're just the ones that got the honor of drawing the short straws in this case.

(05-03-2015 10:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Why is one allowed to "incite" and not be condemned, but not the other?

Because modern Catholics are likely to light candles and sing rather than taking up arms, whereas Islamic dogma tells indicates that blasphemers must be killed (and it's apparently a test of devotion for followers to do it themselves rather than leaving it up to God's hands). I also did not say that this outcome was 100% certain if it were to happen in Des Moines, Iowa. The same conditions that made North Texas an attractive location for "Stand with Muhammed" contribute to my observation. Don't blame me as the messenger, blame God. It all starts with what people think that he said.

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Do you, or we by extension, believe in free, protected speech? Or only in protecting that speech you seemingly agree with?

I absolutely, unequivocally, believe in free speech, no matter how stupid it is. That's why I participate on this forum.

Well that's a good thing, cause between this ^ and that semi-coherent garbage above you have certainly exercised your right to stupid speech.

That and of course clearly you don't. You've already condemned those that have exercised theirs, and excused the terrorists trying to kill them for it.

And the terrorists count on the weak liberals to react just like that. That's why they know their tactics will work. If every time they pulled this garbage, they were met with stone faced determination, and every time they tried to stop one of these peaceful events with their immature violence tactics, a thousand more sprung up afterwards, they'd stop because they'd realize that their terror tactics won't intimidate freedom-loving people. That's kind of the same way the United States came to be in the first place.

You don't think the people who wanted to keep the Colonists colonists didn't use the same tactics as these terrorists? they were unafraid, and they didn't back down.

I may not like it when people do "piss on Jesus" stuff, and say stuff, but I'm certainly not shooting or blowing up anything because of it. Big difference.

The Garland police had over 40 officers on site. They were prepared for anything. Nice work.

Again, we should *not* change our lifestyle to be more sensitive to Islam. No Western country should ever bow to Islam. We need to live our lives like we want, and if that offends anyone, to hell with them.

At the same time, I see no reason to go out of our way to offend Islam. Texans don't routinely get together to draw pictures of Muhammad; it's not something we normally do. So why do this now? It's just to raise a middle finger at Islam. I'm better than that. I don't need to do that.

(05-03-2015 10:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Why is one allowed to "incite" and not be condemned, but not the other?

Because modern Catholics are likely to light candles and sing rather than taking up arms, whereas Islamic dogma tells indicates that blasphemers must be killed (and it's apparently a test of devotion for followers to do it themselves rather than leaving it up to God's hands). I also did not say that this outcome was 100% certain if it were to happen in Des Moines, Iowa. The same conditions that made North Texas an attractive location for "Stand with Muhammed" contribute to my observation. Don't blame me as the messenger, blame God. It all starts with what people think that he said.

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Do you, or we by extension, believe in free, protected speech? Or only in protecting that speech you seemingly agree with?

I absolutely, unequivocally, believe in free speech, no matter how stupid it is. That's why I participate on this forum.

Well that's a good thing, cause between this ^ and that semi-coherent garbage above you have certainly exercised your right to stupid speech.

That and of course clearly you don't. You've already condemned those that have exercised theirs, and excused the terrorists trying to kill them for it.

More BS. I do condemn Geller's action, your lack of comprehension, and your repetition of a specious claim. I have made no excuses for murderers here.

(05-03-2015 10:06 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:59 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:53 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  This outcome was 100% certain. Really stupid thing to do.

Stupid idea, and we shouldn't encourage mindless acts of offensive behavior, but let's not mince words about who is at fault here.

Not sure if you're saying I'm mincing words. There are a whole list of people that are to blame here, and they begin with Pamela Geller, but it's not a short list, either.

Shouldn't that list really start with the 2 dead, thankfully, gunmen?

They're not the ones that scheduled the event. By "start", I did not intend "more", but rather that she is the one that decided this was a good idea and set this inevitable sequence in motion.

(05-03-2015 09:59 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  who else would you possibly blame? The artists? Charlie Hebdo, perhaps?

We don't do this kind of schit in this Country. In fact it is to be celebrated. Cause if not here, where?

Amazing, we're now excusing the terrorists...

Maybe Daddy didn't hug them enough as kids? Good riddance, two more down.

BS. I am not excusing the terrorists, nor their coreligionists, nor their parents, nor their religion, their prophet, nor their god.

I absolutely blame Geller for being an idiot and resent the fact that she put Texans at risk for her idiocy.

Why would an art display, in the United States of America, no less, put ANYONE at risk?

Risk from whom, exactly? Those modern Catholics you mention? Southern Baptists? The ELCA's? Why would we expect, or excuse, this group to react any differently than these others? Are they not capable of "turning the other cheek" as the rest of us are?

Should we simply give them their own set of rules, laws and expectations of civilized "co-existence"?

Sure. Do that. Give them your sympathies and understanding, see where that lands us. Good grief.

The art contest was an exercise in total douchebaggery.

Shooting people over insulting you is an exercise in real ass holeness.

(05-03-2015 10:13 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:01 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:53 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  This outcome was 100% certain. Really stupid thing to do.

Stupid idea, and we shouldn't encourage mindless acts of offensive behavior, but let's not mince words about who is at fault here.

Not sure if you're saying I'm mincing words. There are a whole list of people that are to blame here, and they begin with Pamela Geller, but it's not a short list, either.

No, they begin with the people who pulled the triggers. Geller deserves to fade into obscurity IMO, but she cannot be blamed for the violent response.

Let me ask you this ... if Geller went into the heart of ISIS - Raqqah, Syria - and had done this, would you believe she is stupid to have done this? If she did so while putting a lot of innocents at risk (including local police in this case), would you concede that point?

Geller is stupid. The gunman that pulled the trigger were evil. But, they're just the ones that got the honor of drawing the short straws in this case.

More excuses. Amazing.

And of course Garland Texas is the same as the hell on earth these animals have created for themselves in Syria.

I think I'm being punked here with this idiotic garbage. Is there a camera around here somewhere?!?

At least this ended well. Two bad guys are dead, and the one good guy that was hurt is already out of the hospital.

(05-03-2015 10:13 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:01 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:53 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  This outcome was 100% certain. Really stupid thing to do.

Stupid idea, and we shouldn't encourage mindless acts of offensive behavior, but let's not mince words about who is at fault here.

Not sure if you're saying I'm mincing words. There are a whole list of people that are to blame here, and they begin with Pamela Geller, but it's not a short list, either.

No, they begin with the people who pulled the triggers. Geller deserves to fade into obscurity IMO, but she cannot be blamed for the violent response.

Let me ask you this ... if Geller went into the heart of ISIS - Raqqah, Syria - and had done this, would you believe she is stupid to have done this? If she did so while putting a lot of innocents at risk (including local police in this case), would you concede that point?

Geller is stupid. The gunman that pulled the trigger were evil. But, they're just the ones that got the honor of drawing the short straws in this case.

No, I would still blame the people committing the act of violence for those acts. I agree that Geller is stupid, but you're acting as if these people literally had no choice once the drawings were made. She can be blamed for her actions only, and while she may hold some civil liability(?), she is absolutely not to blame for the shooting.

There is nothing wrong with pressuring people to not go out of their way to make offensive remarks just for the sake of it, and I fully agree with you there, but you cannot blame art, words, or speech for violent actions.

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The Garland police had over 40 officers on site. They were prepared for anything. Nice work.

Again, we should *not* change our lifestyle to be more sensitive to Islam. No Western country should ever bow to Islam. We need to live our lives like we want, and if that offends anyone, to hell with them.

At the same time, I see no reason to go out of our way to offend Islam. Texans don't routinely get together to draw pictures of Muhammad; it's not something we normally do. So why do this now? It's just to raise a middle finger at Islam. I'm better than that. I don't need to do that.

Sure. I wouldn't do that either. Nor would I shoot up a place over a girlfriend, cartoons, or something my neighbor may have said about my momma. But they most certainly have the right to do what they did, have whatever exhibit or contest they'd like, right?

We see this all the time, stuff many of us would see as "offensive", Piss Christ or burning a flag right up there. But, its allowed, and we DO turn the other cheek. If they can't? Then don't.

Die in a hail of gunfire or go back to "Mother Country" and the 7th century.

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Why is one allowed to "incite" and not be condemned, but not the other?

Because modern Catholics are likely to light candles and sing rather than taking up arms, whereas Islamic dogma tells indicates that blasphemers must be killed (and it's apparently a test of devotion for followers to do it themselves rather than leaving it up to God's hands). I also did not say that this outcome was 100% certain if it were to happen in Des Moines, Iowa. The same conditions that made North Texas an attractive location for "Stand with Muhammed" contribute to my observation. Don't blame me as the messenger, blame God. It all starts with what people think that he said.

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Do you, or we by extension, believe in free, protected speech? Or only in protecting that speech you seemingly agree with?

I absolutely, unequivocally, believe in free speech, no matter how stupid it is. That's why I participate on this forum.

Well that's a good thing, cause between this ^ and that semi-coherent garbage above you have certainly exercised your right to stupid speech.

That and of course clearly you don't. You've already condemned those that have exercised theirs, and excused the terrorists trying to kill them for it.

More BS. I do condemn Geller's action, your lack of comprehension, and your repetition of a specious claim. I have made no excuses for murderers here.

Who are "murderers" here? The cop protecting his life and that of others? You've condemned Geller and apparently me lol, where have you condemned the terrorists responsible for this attack?

I've yet to see it, anyone else seen it? I've read a bunch of excuses for A-holes opening fire at an art exhibit of all things.

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Why would an art display, in the United States of America, no less, put ANYONE at risk?

Ask Muhammed. Ask Allah. And, ask a Muslim. If you're bold, ask a Muslim while holding a picture of Muhammed. If you're really bold, do so in Raqqa, Syria. But, make sure your will is in order first.

Why should it? In a sane world, with sane neighbors, it would not. Unfortunately, that's not what America is, in reality.

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Risk from whom, exactly? Those modern Catholics you mention? Southern Baptists? The ELCA's? Why would we expect, or excuse, this group to react any differently than these others? Are they not capable of "turning the other cheek" as the rest of us are?

You brought up piss christ - that's where the reference to modern Catholics comes from (though I guess I was conflating memories of it and "The Last Temptation of Christ", which I recall upsetting Catholics more than anyone).

I am not aware of any dogma except Islamic dogma that compels its followers to do this.

Turn this around. Make your list of who's to blame for this situation, if you like. I probably won't have any objection to it so long as it includes Geller, and I don't really care whether she's first or last.

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Should we simply give them their own set of rules, laws and expectations of civilized "co-existence"?

Absolutely not. But, the reality is that they follow their own set of rules, no matter what you or I have to say about it. And, they view those laws as superior to US law, no matter what you or I have to say about it. As long as there is no real conflict between the two sets of rules and no provocation like what happened today, there is generally an expectation or civilized co-existence, and that's what happens most days. It's sad, pathetic, evil, etc. that a fit of idiocy changes thing to the contrary.

I am not excusing anything, just providing an observation. You can make honor killings illegal. That doesn't mean that it will stop it from happening if someone is intent on doing so.

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Sure. Do that. Give them your sympathies and understanding, see where that lands us. Good grief.

The evil people that perpetrated this have none of my sympathy. You are getting yourself worked up over the delusion that I have provided it.

I have provided observations here. I have also called Geller an idiot that put a lot of people at risk. I will not back down from that.

(05-03-2015 10:42 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Why is one allowed to "incite" and not be condemned, but not the other?

Because modern Catholics are likely to light candles and sing rather than taking up arms, whereas Islamic dogma tells indicates that blasphemers must be killed (and it's apparently a test of devotion for followers to do it themselves rather than leaving it up to God's hands). I also did not say that this outcome was 100% certain if it were to happen in Des Moines, Iowa. The same conditions that made North Texas an attractive location for "Stand with Muhammed" contribute to my observation. Don't blame me as the messenger, blame God. It all starts with what people think that he said.

(05-03-2015 09:51 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Do you, or we by extension, believe in free, protected speech? Or only in protecting that speech you seemingly agree with?

I absolutely, unequivocally, believe in free speech, no matter how stupid it is. That's why I participate on this forum.

Well that's a good thing, cause between this ^ and that semi-coherent garbage above you have certainly exercised your right to stupid speech.

That and of course clearly you don't. You've already condemned those that have exercised theirs, and excused the terrorists trying to kill them for it.

More BS. I do condemn Geller's action, your lack of comprehension, and your repetition of a specious claim. I have made no excuses for murderers here.

Who are "murderers" here? The cop protecting his life and that of others? You've condemned Geller and apparently me lol, where have you condemned the terrorists responsible for this attack?

I've yet to see it, anyone else seen it? I've read a bunch of excuses for A-holes opening fire at an art exhibit of all things.

The gunmen (and thankfully, they did not actually kill anyone) are evil. Their philosophical underpinnings are evil. I think that is pretty self-evident. I think my opinions are evident in my body of work, but we can pretend its groundhog day. Welcome to the Spin Room.

Geller is still an idiot, and I hope she gets the **** out of North Texas and never returns.

(05-03-2015 10:30 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The Garland police had over 40 officers on site. They were prepared for anything. Nice work.

Again, we should *not* change our lifestyle to be more sensitive to Islam. No Western country should ever bow to Islam. We need to live our lives like we want, and if that offends anyone, to hell with them.

At the same time, I see no reason to go out of our way to offend Islam. Texans don't routinely get together to draw pictures of Muhammad; it's not something we normally do. So why do this now? It's just to raise a middle finger at Islam. I'm better than that. I don't need to do that.

Sure. I wouldn't do that either. Nor would I shoot up a place over a girlfriend, cartoons, or something my neighbor may have said about my momma. But they most certainly have the right to do what they did, have whatever exhibit or contest they'd like, right?

We see this all the time, stuff many of us would see as "offensive", Piss Christ or burning a flag right up there. But, its allowed, and we DO turn the other cheek. If they can't? Then don't.

Die in a hail of gunfire or go back to "Mother Country" and the 7th century.

Unfortunately, I don't think this I'd the last time we'll hear about Muslim gunmen. There are lots of those martyr wannabes here.

(05-03-2015 09:54 PM)Claw Wrote:  Maybe we could hold 100 more of these contests and get rid of 200 more of these cretins.

Bwahahaha. Like a rat trap

(05-03-2015 10:48 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:42 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:18 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Because modern Catholics are likely to light candles and sing rather than taking up arms, whereas Islamic dogma tells indicates that blasphemers must be killed (and it's apparently a test of devotion for followers to do it themselves rather than leaving it up to God's hands). I also did not say that this outcome was 100% certain if it were to happen in Des Moines, Iowa. The same conditions that made North Texas an attractive location for "Stand with Muhammed" contribute to my observation. Don't blame me as the messenger, blame God. It all starts with what people think that he said.


I absolutely, unequivocally, believe in free speech, no matter how stupid it is. That's why I participate on this forum.

Well that's a good thing, cause between this ^ and that semi-coherent garbage above you have certainly exercised your right to stupid speech.

That and of course clearly you don't. You've already condemned those that have exercised theirs, and excused the terrorists trying to kill them for it.

More BS. I do condemn Geller's action, your lack of comprehension, and your repetition of a specious claim. I have made no excuses for murderers here.

Who are "murderers" here? The cop protecting his life and that of others? You've condemned Geller and apparently me lol, where have you condemned the terrorists responsible for this attack?

I've yet to see it, anyone else seen it? I've read a bunch of excuses for A-holes opening fire at an art exhibit of all things.

The gunmen (and thankfully, they did not actually kill anyone) are evil. Their philosophical underpinnings are evil. I think that is pretty self-evident. I think my opinions are evident in my body of work, but we can pretend its groundhog day. Welcome to the Spin Room.

Geller is still an idiot, and I hope she gets the **** out of North Texas and never returns.

She's a U.S. citizen, right? Has a right to be there? Conduct an art exhibit?!?

So we kick her out and everything is a-okay in Texasland?!? Yet who are you allowing to stay? Get rid of her and everyone sings kumbaya? lol.

Okay, times up, where's the gotcha-cam? This can't possibly be f'real.

Just because you can provoke stupid people doesn't mean you should.

(05-03-2015 10:24 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Let me ask you this ... if Geller went into the heart of ISIS - Raqqah, Syria - and had done this, would you believe she is stupid to have done this? If she did so while putting a lot of innocents at risk (including local police in this case), would you concede that point?
Geller is stupid. The gunman that pulled the trigger were evil. But, they're just the ones that got the honor of drawing the short straws in this case.

More excuses. Amazing.
I think I'm being punked here with this idiotic garbage. Is there a camera around here somewhere?!?
[/quote]

(05-03-2015 10:42 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  I've yet to see it, anyone else seen it? I've read a bunch of excuses for A-holes opening fire at an art exhibit of all things.

Exactly how have I provided any kind of excuse? You singled out my statement that indicates there is considerable depth of candidates on which to draw gunmen as an excuse? Do you think I've excused anyone by saying their evil? "Murderers only kill because they are evil" excuses murderers because they're being true to their nature?

(05-03-2015 10:24 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  And of course Garland Texas is the same as the hell on earth these animals have created for themselves in Syria.

It's not as different as you think in some respects. North Texas has way more than its share of links to groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, HAMAS and al Qaeda. That, in itself is a lengthy list. And, it includes my former neighbors from a few houses down that were visited and evicted by the FBI for stockpiling weapons and apparently using the golf course behind their house as a suitable site for target practice. It's nice to no longer have what looked like Syrian Baathists not marching up and down the sidewalks at night and kids not standing in the middle of the street just daring you to run them over until you have to come to a near complete stop.

(05-03-2015 10:42 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  You've condemned Geller and apparently me lol, where have you condemned the terrorists responsible for this attack?

I condemned statements by you, not you (at least that's not my intent). I'm sure you're a decent person and we can go back to probably agreeing on most days.

I'm surprised by the presence of Geller in North Texas. I guess I'm not at all surprised by the presence of terrorists in this case. Geller absolutely deserves to be condemned. Obviously, Islamic terrorists do to... I figured that's pretty self-evident, but if it makes you happy, I've done that as well, in my post above. Will you admit that Geller is an idiot so that I can go to bed now?

(05-03-2015 10:55 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  She's a U.S. citizen, right? Has a right to be there? Conduct an art exhibit?!?

Yes. Yes. Yes, if she wishes to do so, but that's not why she was here. Let's not pretend this is about art... It's about provocation and an expression of hatred. What she is doing is more similar to KKK or Nazi activity than it is to art.

Of course, she's still an idiot, but that has nothing to do with whether she has those rights. She does.

(05-03-2015 11:03 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  Just because you can provoke stupid people doesn't mean you should.

Maybe the government should appoint a czar to tell us all what might provoke stupid people and let's us know what we can and cannot say

Or

Maybe we should protect free speech and allow people to express themselves and when someone shows up and opens fire because they don't agree they die. Now if they show up with signs and chant and protest. We protect them. If they show up with weapons and open fire. They die



I will go with the second scenerio