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TribeNiner Offline
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Post: #21
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 02:52 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 01:05 PM)banker Wrote:  So basically Rice could triple each school's endowment and still be 4 times bigger than the second largest.

I've never really looked into how endowments are handled. I understand all the restricted/unrestricted stuff, but not the reasoning behind the accumulation of wealth by universities to a level beyond what they would ever conceivably need. Not saying Rice is necessarily there, but I find it hard to believe a school like Harvard actually ever needs to raise another dollar for anything.

endowments generally pay out between 4.5% and 5% of a rolling 3 to 5 year average of the total endowment

so for round numbers Rice with 5.5 billion would each year spend somewhere around $275 million or a little less (Rice is very financially conservative so they spend under 5% of their endowment last I read somewhere close to 4.5%)

undergrad tuition and fees for Rice were $39,880.00

Rice has 3,888 undergrads

so if you did the math $39,880 * 3,888 = $155,053,440

Rice has 2,610 grad students

Graduate tuition is from $28,000 to $32,000 or so with many students getting that reduced to 10% or less for teaching or a research stipend

so 2,610 * $29,000 = $75.690,000

so total graduate and undergrad tuition if every student paid full price would be $230,743,440

but again not close to every undergrad or grad student pays full tuition

in fiscal year 2014 Rice had a total budget of $ 594,915,000

$266,497,000 for instruction and research
$102,569,000 in sponsored research (money others paid Rice to conduct research in grants or donations or contracts)
$29,947,000 to run the Library
$18,900,000 in scholarships and fellowships
$59,048,000 Auxiliary (athletics ect)
$63,525,000 student services
$29,730,000 administration
$24,699,000 institutional development

so the vast majority of money was spend on instruction and research that was not sponsored (pretty much all Rice students undergrad and grad participate in research)

so Tuition alone even with everyone paying a full ride would not cover half of the cost of running the university and that is where endowments come in

many would say "well spend SOME of the endowment", but you can't do that and here is why

you are going to be hard pressed to earn a consistent return on investment in any decent long term investment over 10%

you have to have room for "inflation" because if your endowment does not grow with inflation then the $275,000,000 you earn today in a $5.5 million dollar endowment will not have near the same buying power in 20 years from now when $275,000,000 is not buying the same goods and services and your endowment has not grown to keep up with inflation

so you spend a portion of your annual returns (4.5% to 5%) and you leave the rest in the endowment (3% to 5%) to keep up with inflation and for those times when the stock market and other investments go negative

here is an example of that

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research...tValue.pdf

in the NACUBO 2009 survey (of 2008 values)

Harvard was $36,556,284,000

Rice was $4,610,164,000

in 2010 (2009 values)

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research...Values.pdf

Harvard was $25,662,055,000

Rice was $3,612,884,000

So Harvard had lost nearly 11 BILLION and Rice 1 Billion in a single year

that equates to a reduction in investment return of $495,000,000 on just the endowment dollars LOST for Harvard not to mention the actual 11 billion lost and that is about a $45 million loss of investment return for Rice not to mention the $1 billion lost

which is why you spend a rolling average of several years

so for Rice with a $595 million per year budget that loss of $45 million in annual returns is 7% to 8% of their budget that vanished

so if you have been planning LONG TERM you reduce your spending 3% to 4% and you dip into the total endowment dollars and you wait until you start earning 7% to 10% per year again and you build your endowment back up along with a gradual increase in spending based on the rolling average of annual total endowment


the inability to understand this basic investing is why a massive % of pro athletes end up broke and not only broke, but in debt

they simply cannot put any money away for the future and they cannot deal with the basics of what long term investing and investment returns are or how to budget for that

they get a $25 million dollar contract.....10% to an agent so now $22.5

40% in taxes (state and federal income) so now you have $13,500,000 to put in the bank (and that is if you get it all in one chunk)

if you spend 5% of that per year you can spend $675,000 per year or $56,250 per month

so if you are a "pro" and manage to get $13,500,000 in the bank you can spend $675,000 per year and keep up that type of lifestyle for the very long term including inflation

BUT of course even that is not true.....because if you have $13,500,000 in the bank when you retire and every year that is paying out 10% in SOUND investments (not your idiot friends car wash or wings store or "grills" store ect)

well that is an investment return of $1,350,000.....and you pay 33% to "the man" (in a state with no income taxes) and closer to 40% in one with state income taxes

so that leaves you $810,000 and you need to have some of that invested to keep up with inflation

so if you keep back 3% of your total investment money for inflation and to keep up with years when stocks decline

3% of $13,500,000 = $405,000

so you have $1,350,000 return on your investments if you are getting a VERY HIGH 10% annual return.......you pay 40% of that in income taxes or $540,000......you keep back 3% of your total invested assets for inflation and bad stock market years......$405,000 for a total of $945,000 out of $1,350,000 which leaves you $405,000 per year to live on (make it rain and sheet)

or $33,750 per month

but if you are stupid you spent $5,000,000 of that $13,500,000 on a crib and you put 300 plasma screen TVs in it and tiger skin on the ceilings and zebra skin on the walls

you spend another $1,000,000 on cars and put a bunch of ugly paint on them and crappy rims and tires

3 fun babies and all of them came when you were making the most money per year

hose for mom

$2,000,000 on your friends stupid restaurant ideas, cRap albums, and making it rain in Vegas and talking to Johnny F on the money fone

and now you are down to $5,000,000 in the bank, your wing store has failed, your child support is MASSIVE, the annual taxes, maintenance and upkeep and utilities on your crib and moms crib are killing you

the cost of maintaining your cars is killing you and if you do not have "the book" signed for your lambo and furrurriie they decline in value dramatically when you sell them used

your investments suck because your uncle in law is your investment adviser and you end up selling your tricked out crib for 65% of what you paid for it because no one wants leopard skin carpets with kool burns in them and a boob shaped pool and a tiger cage in the yard and it needs maintenance and real estate is down in your area

and suddenly you have about $2,000,000 in the bank......your career ends, your child support eats up 100% of what your $2,000,000 in the bank pays out and leaves nothing for you.....you are a known knucklehead and no company wants you as a spokesperson and you have no skillz for the real world and you go broke and you are probably in debt after lawyers to settle all your stupidity......but you were worth $13,500,000 two years ago

but you could not manage to make it work on $33,750 per month because that is what you spend on santana champs and shawn john and korvisaaye at the strip club each week much less at Applebees every night of the month

every $5,000,000 house and every $500,000 car and every $50,000,000 million building at a university is an EXPENSE.....ADDED TO YOUR CURRENT EXPENSES

and when you are not even getting a return on your investment to cover your yearly expenses you are in trouble as soon as your career ends or as soon as your car wash, wing store and cRap album and recording studio and record label fail much les sif stocks and real estate decline

But how much is the YOLO swag worth?


Seriously, that post was a wild ride.
01-29-2015 04:08 PM
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ThreeifbyLightning Online
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Post: #22
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 03:54 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 03:42 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  This is the greatest ramble, hypothetical - not based in fact - post I have ever seen.

Unfortunateley, you lost me at hello. And then I fell asleep trying to read the rest.

your university should be proud they produced such a financial illiterate

if you cannot follow the most BASICS of sound long term investing and returns there is little hope for you

#hireaninvestmentadvisorandlistentothem

#youaredestinedtobebroke

responses like yours are why this country is going broke and filled with broke people and financial know nothings

This is freaking hilarious.

I have an MBA. I have previously been certified as a financial advisor, and I trade options and other complicated investment strategies just for fun.

I have a feeling that unless you're just rich from an inheritance or something like that the assets I manage either through work or under control in my retirement, savings, and other accounts dwarf what you actually have experience with.

I could run circles around the post you made.
01-29-2015 04:10 PM
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banker Online
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Post: #23
RE: University Endowments
Todge, I appreciate the effort you put in, but I had already acknowledge that Rice wasn't to the point Harvard was. One thing I will point out is that you overstated Rice's shortfall by a little over a hundred million. You have the research expense, but you don't put the research grants on the other side.

Second thing I would point out, throwing out the impact of the 2008 crash in a vacuum is a little misleading (at best) without pointing out that, even with a year like that, your average return over time will far exceed the 4-5% range, especially when you have billions to invest. With that kind of capital you have access to investment vehicles and private placements not enjoyed by the population at large. Harvard, over the longer term, has averaged an 11% return on their portfolio (over 15% last year).

Here's one way to think about it. For the 36 billion Harvard has they could buy two large regional banks for cash based on current market capitalization, BB&T and Fifth Third. Combined those banks have net income of about 3.7 billion, and that's in a tough banking environment. As rates move up, and those banks return to normalized ROA and ROE, they will be throwing off 5 billion a year. That's an income stream in perpetuity that's about 12% return with never touching principal.

Of course Harvard made 5 billion last year without having to assume ownership risk so there's no need to do anything like that.
01-29-2015 04:18 PM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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Post: #24
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 04:04 PM)NTTHOR Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 01:53 PM)banker Wrote:  I understand that, but Harvard has a 36 billion dollar endowment. It grew by 5 billion last year. They are literally making money faster than they can spend it. Why would they realistically ever have to solicit another donation? Are they doing all they could be doing to accomplish their mission or are they hoarding cash to the benefit of those that manage it?

i think it has to do with ego. people give tons of money to harvard/yale/wherever to have their name on a building and the prestige. imagine how the money could actually help/improve other colleges from the south...i don't think that a 20 million dollar donation to harvard makes a dent or does anything...but 20 mil to southern miss or north texas would be HUGE!

A wealthy man named Seeley Mudd set up a foundation to spread it around like that. There are Mudd buildings all over the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeley_G._Mudd
01-29-2015 04:22 PM
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TodgeRodge Offline
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Post: #25
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 04:18 PM)banker Wrote:  Todge, I appreciate the effort you put in, but I had already acknowledge that Rice wasn't to the point Harvard was. One thing I will point out is that you overstated Rice's shortfall by a little over a hundred million. You have the research expense, but you don't put the research grants on the other side.

Second thing I would point out, throwing out the impact of the 2008 crash in a vacuum is a little misleading (at best) without pointing out that, even with a year like that, your average return over time will far exceed the 4-5% range, especially when you have billions to invest. With that kind of capital you have access to investment vehicles and private placements not enjoyed by the population at large. Harvard, over the longer term, has averaged an 11% return on their portfolio (over 15% last year).

Here's one way to think about it. For the 36 billion Harvard has they could buy two large regional banks for cash based on current market capitalization, BB&T and Fifth Third. Combined those banks have net income of about 3.7 billion, and that's in a tough banking environment. As rates move up, and those banks return to normalized ROA and ROE, they will be throwing off 5 billion a year. That's an income stream in perpetuity that's about 12% return with never touching principal.

Of course Harvard made 5 billion last year without having to assume ownership risk so there's no need to do anything like that.

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

the "change in market value" for Harvard was 11% from 2013 to 2014 not 15%

also that is "the change in market value" not a "return on investment"

as the * shows above "change in market value" it does not represent a rate of return rather it represents among other things gifts and donations and changes in the value of illiquid assets

Harvard brought in 1.16 billion in donations last year

http://www.latimes.com/local/education/l...story.html

not all of that necessarily went to the endowment some of it could have been spent immediately or will be spent over time VS being saved/endowed for the long term, but still that 11% increase is from ALL new money not just returns on the endowment

and even if you did average 11% year in and year out if you spend 5% of that it leaves you 6% for inflation and for other things like market downswings

when you remove money from your endowment and build something new that is an increase in expenses with a corresponding decrease in endowed assets to help fund what you had and what you are adding

Harvard had an annual budget of 4.2 billion in 2013 and they ran a deficit of 23 million

http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013...story.html

when you have a budget of 4.2 billion you could spend 100% of your annual 11% return on a 35 billion dollar endowment and still not cover your full budget

when you have 21,200 students if you gave every one of them 20,000 in financial aid that is $424 million

in 2012 they did $694 million in external research and probably about the same in 2013

so if you have 10% coming in off of 35 billion and you spend 100% of that and you charge $10,000 ("in state" type rates for tuition) for 21,000 students for tuition AND housing you get $210,000,000 in tuition

so $3,500,000,000 spending 100% of your endowment proceeds annually

$210,000,000 if you charged $10,000 for tuition AND housing (spreading it around right)

and $694 million in externally funded research that gets you to $4.4 billion in income......but of course that is spending 100% of an expected 10% return on your endowment when it is at the highest it has ever been

so like I said they have a 4.2 billion dollar budget in 2013 so the have $200,000,000 to "spare" in a wildly optimistic scenario where you get 10% every year on investment returns and 1 billion in donations

$200,000,000 is .0057 of $35 billion so that is not a great deal to add back to an endowment of 35 billion for future inflation

so Harvard if they charged $10,000 per year for each of 21,200 students for tuition AND housing, they took in $694 million in research grants and funding and they had a 10% return on a 35 billion dollar endowment would have .0057 of their endowment to return each year for inflation

and if you expect that they will get 1 billion in donations and you add that to the $200,000,000 that is still only 3.4% they would be taking in over and above expenses to grow their endowment for inflation.....and there is very very little chance they will take in one billion in donations annually and I think EXPECTING a 10% return on investments long term no matter how much money you are investing is pushing it

so when you start looking at a more realistic rate of endowment returns and a longer term average of donations it becomes pretty clear that Harvard can't charge 21,200 students only $10,000 per year in tuition it needs to go much higher than that for many of them especially since Harvard is going to give FREE tuition to many students and they are going to give either tuition wavers for many grad students or they are going to give them generous stipends and they are going to have a large number of PAID post docs (303 in 2012)

so when you start moving the numbers around and you realize that many students are not paying even $10,000 in tuition and housing and that expecting $3.5 billion annually in endowment returns and $1 billion in annual donations is not realistic at all you get to the point that Harvard is charging those that can afford it $40,000 per year in tuition and "spreading that around" to others that can't afford that or that had superior academic credentials

and there is not just hundreds of millions or billions that Harvard could just start spending on single year expenses or on facilities and things that will cost more to maintain and fund in the future
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2015 05:30 PM by TodgeRodge.)
01-29-2015 05:27 PM
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GreenSteve Offline
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Post: #26
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 11:46 AM)Niner National Wrote:  One of these things is not like the others.

Rice is an AAU school.
01-29-2015 06:10 PM
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banker Online
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Post: #27
RE: University Endowments
Todge, last fiscal year they returned 15.4%. You can look it up, it's the first hit in Google. They have averaged 12% over the last 20 years.

http://www.hmc.harvard.edu

Oh, and Harvard costs $58,000 a year for tuition, room and board. They could charge $100,000 a year if they wanted, they have a 5% acceptance rate. Plenty of really rich people would pay whatever it took to get their kid in. Oh, and it's not like tuition is their only source of revenue.

I will give you this, you type a lot.
01-29-2015 08:05 PM
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Post: #28
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 08:05 PM)banker Wrote:  Todge, last fiscal year they returned 15.4%. You can look it up, it's the first hit in Google. They have averaged 12% over the last 20 years.

http://www.hmc.harvard.edu

Oh, and Harvard costs $58,000 a year for tuition, room and board. They could charge $100,000 a year if they wanted, they have a 5% acceptance rate. Plenty of really rich people would pay whatever it took to get their kid in. Oh, and it's not like tuition is their only source of revenue.

I will give you this, you type a lot.

lets do the math a different way

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research...isting.pdf

in FY 2001 the Harvard endowment was $17,950.483,000

if one goes with the "rule of 72" with a 10% return on average you would double your money every 7.2 years

the S&P average from 1987 to 2012 was 9.61% which would double the money every 7.5 years

that would of course taking zero money out to be spent to double that money every 7.5 years with an S&P type return

here we are looking at Harvard with $35,883,691,000 in FY 2014

if Harvard was strictly meeting conservative S&P returns and taking zero money out from 2001 when they were at $17,950.483,000 they would have doubled that by FY 2008 to $35,900,966,000

in 2008 they had doubled that money and in fact had done better than that they were at $36,556,284,000

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research...tValue.pdf

and so from there they should be able to double that yet again in another 7 years right

well here we are 6 years later from 2008 looking at FY 2014 and the Harvard endowment is $35,883,691,000

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

so in 6 years from FY 2008 to FY 2014 Harvard has lost $672,593,000 of their endowment

so if you look at a very conservative investment strategy for the long term attempting to double your money every 7.5 years to keep up with the S&P and taking no money out Harvard should have gone from $17,950.483,000 in FY 2001 to $35,900.966 in FY 2008 (they actually beat that) and then they should have gone from $35,900.966 in FY 2008 to be on track to hit $71,801.932 in FY 2015 if they were beating the S&P even slightly

but instead 6 years into that 7 years they are lower by nearly $700 million than in FY 2008

so it is very clear that Harvard is spending a large amount of dollars out of their endowment and the returns from that endowment and over the last 6 years not only have they not come close to meeting any type of strategy for keeping endowment growth up with inflation they have actually watched the endowment decrease in real dollars with or without inflation

so if they were to attempt to spend more they could watch their endowment further decline and not come close to keeping up with inflation much less growing in the short or long term

and I am well aware that the tuition for Harvard LISTED is above the numbers that I used, but Harvard only has 6,700 undergrads along with 14,500 grad students and I would imagine the vast majority of those undergrads are not paying close to that tuition you listed and pretty much all of the graduate students are not going to be paying that when you look at stipends for teaching and or research

even if they were all paying that full rate it is still only 1.2 billion out of a 4.2 billion dollar budget so that is 3 billion you need to find elsewhere

you have $694 million in external research so that leaves a lot of money still to find elsewhere

Harvard has 2,400 faculty members and 10,400 academic appointments in teaching hospitals

http://www.harvard.edu/harvard-glance

so that is quite a number of people to pay and provide benefits for as well

and as that link states

UNDERGRADUATE COST AND FINANCIAL AID

Families with students on scholarship pay an average of $11,500 annually toward the cost of a Harvard education. More than 65 percent of Harvard College students receive scholarship aid, and the average grant this year is $46,000.

Since 2007, Harvard’s investment in financial aid has climbed by more than 70 percent, from $96.6 million to $166 million per year.

During the 2012-2013 academic year, students from families with incomes below $65,000, and with assets typical for that income level, will generally pay nothing toward the cost of attending Harvard College. Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0 to 10 percent of income, depending on individual circumstances. Significant financial aid also is available for families above those income ranges.


so again as I stated a massive amount of the students at Harvard pay nowhere close to $50K+ per year

when you look at the fact that Harvard has barely doubled their endowment (with both investment returns AND donations included) in 13 years and over the last 6 years with investment returns AND donations their endowment is still down nearly $700 million it is pretty clear to see they are spending from their endowment at pretty much the highest possible rate that they can without doing long term damage and as in one of the articles I linked there is already concern they are doing long term damage

and as for what their investment website states about annual returns.....I am sure they handle investments besides strictly the endowment like the retirement for all those thousands of workers and staff members and I would imagine the returns on investment they quote would include that money as well which would not be the actual endowment

that or for some reason Harvard has chosen to misrepresent their endowment returns to the NACUBO for over a decade

I don't know about how you or anyone else looks at finances, but when I am 13 years into something and I have only barely doubled my money that I have invested I am either spending too much or I am not getting a proper return and all the worse when I am adding external funds (donations in the case of Harvard) and still at that point

and when I am 6 years into something and down nearly 700 million including investment returns and annual additions of funds (donations for Harvard) the last thing I would tell myself if I had an annual budget of 4.2 billion to meet is "I am not spending enough from the endowment I should give more financial aid and build more buildings and give staff members big raises"

unless I want to go broke like a pro athlete or a lotto winner

the numbers CLEARLY show that Harvard is sending a great deal of money from their endowment and relative to total endowment and long term endowment returns and their financial aid numbers show they are very generous even to families that have well above a middle class income and they go to great lengths to make Harvard affordable for them
01-29-2015 09:01 PM
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FlyHawk98 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: University Endowments
I hope that our Marshall friend sturt reads this board.

I would love to see you two get into a typing competition.
01-29-2015 09:29 PM
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NTTHOR Offline
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Post: #30
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 04:22 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 04:04 PM)NTTHOR Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 01:53 PM)banker Wrote:  I understand that, but Harvard has a 36 billion dollar endowment. It grew by 5 billion last year. They are literally making money faster than they can spend it. Why would they realistically ever have to solicit another donation? Are they doing all they could be doing to accomplish their mission or are they hoarding cash to the benefit of those that manage it?

i think it has to do with ego. people give tons of money to harvard/yale/wherever to have their name on a building and the prestige. imagine how the money could actually help/improve other colleges from the south...i don't think that a 20 million dollar donation to harvard makes a dent or does anything...but 20 mil to southern miss or north texas would be HUGE!

A wealthy man named Seeley Mudd set up a foundation to spread it around like that. There are Mudd buildings all over the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeley_G._Mudd
That's cool...did not know that...thanks for the info. ..
But is he the only one?

just imagine the impact Harvard donors could have on other schools...
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2015 09:32 PM by NTTHOR.)
01-29-2015 09:30 PM
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RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 11:42 AM)FAUAEPi Wrote:  Why can't we ever discuss something fun and something we should win. Like hottest coeds for example.

Start a thread!

eta: I would, but I went to Rice. There wasn't much there while I was on campus (times may have changed, though).
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2015 10:15 AM by GoodOwl.)
01-30-2015 10:01 AM
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Post: #32
RE: University Endowments
Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf
[/quote]
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2015 10:28 AM by ODUalum78.)
01-30-2015 10:12 AM
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Post: #33
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 10:12 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; Courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf
[/quote]

Louisiana requires an annual audit of its universities and their Foundations. The Louisiana Tech University opened its books to auditors for the fiscal year ending 6-30-2014 that showed the Louisiana Tech University Foundation to have NET assets of $45,489,988 and a NET endowment of $28,510,326. The auditors reviewed those records and agreed they were correct. The current fiscal year does not end until 06-30-2015.

Thus, you can believe the school and its auditors, or Wikipedia.
01-30-2015 10:48 AM
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ODUalum78 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 10:48 AM)eager eagle Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 10:12 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; Courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

Louisiana requires an annual audit of its universities and their Foundations. The Louisiana Tech University opened its books to auditors for the fiscal year ending 6-30-2014 that showed the Louisiana Tech University Foundation to have NET assets of $45,489,988 and a NET endowment of $28,510,326. The auditors reviewed those records and agreed they were correct. The current fiscal year does not end until 06-30-2015.

Thus, you can believe the school and its auditors, or Wikipedia.
[/quote]
As you have shown, any given fiscal year is different. For example, La Tech itself reported an endowment of $72,459,317 for fiscal year 2013.
Some records are still not available past 2013 because of incomplete audits.
What is La Tech reporting for 2014?
01-30-2015 11:03 AM
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DETLTU Offline
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Post: #35
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 10:48 AM)eager eagle Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 10:12 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; Courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

Louisiana requires an annual audit of its universities and their Foundations. The Louisiana Tech University opened its books to auditors for the fiscal year ending 6-30-2014 that showed the Louisiana Tech University Foundation to have NET assets of $45,489,988 and a NET endowment of $28,510,326. The auditors reviewed those records and agreed they were correct. The current fiscal year does not end until 06-30-2015.

Thus, you can believe the school and its auditors, or Wikipedia.
I figured this was coming. We've discussed it before but per note 12 from the auditors report:
Certain endowed fiinds are provided by the State of Louisiana as a match to these qualifying private endowed contributions. Once the match is received, the private endowed funds along with the matching endowed funds are transferred to the Due to Louisiana Tech University liability account.

Those funds cannot be an asset for the Foundation, but they are for the University.
Total value of that account is 40,493,409.

I know that doesn't fit with your agenda, but other people should know the truth at least.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2015 11:10 AM by DETLTU.)
01-30-2015 11:09 AM
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TodgeRodge Offline
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Post: #36
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 10:12 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

those wiki numbers for UTSA and UTEP are dated and incorrect

one can get the info from UTIMCO here

http://www.utimco.org/scripts/PrivateEnd...mplist.asp

or for even more current numbers from the THCEB here

http://www.txhighereddata.org/Interactiv...nerate.cfm

under contextual measures total endowment

with UTEP at $221 and UTSA $114......so UTEP being much higher and UTSA only slightly higher
01-30-2015 12:45 PM
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eager eagle Offline
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Post: #37
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 11:09 AM)DETLTU Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 10:48 AM)eager eagle Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 10:12 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; Courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

Louisiana requires an annual audit of its universities and their Foundations. The Louisiana Tech University opened its books to auditors for the fiscal year ending 6-30-2014 that showed the Louisiana Tech University Foundation to have NET assets of $45,489,988 and a NET endowment of $28,510,326. The auditors reviewed those records and agreed they were correct. The current fiscal year does not end until 06-30-2015.

Thus, you can believe the school and its auditors, or Wikipedia.
I figured this was coming. We've discussed it before but per note 12 from the auditors report:
Certain endowed fiinds are provided by the State of Louisiana as a match to these qualifying private endowed contributions. Once the match is received, the private endowed funds along with the matching endowed funds are transferred to the Due to Louisiana Tech University liability account.

Those funds cannot be an asset for the Foundation, but they are for the University.
Total value of that account is 40,493,409.

I know that doesn't fit with your agenda, but other people should know the truth at least.

La Tech was not included in the first listing but someone checked with Wikipedia which showed $94mil endowment resulting in a #12 rank in Cusa and about 360 or so nationally. I checked and simply quoted from the audit report which clearly identifies the La Tech endowment has a net value $28,510,326. Now, what you say is indeed correct but the figure you are talking about is mixing oranges and apples because the over $40mil INCLUDES state matching funds AND donated endowment money. We are talking here about endowments and NOT matching state funds because state funds are not guaranteed over the years whereas endowments are set in cement with only the interest available for use from year to year.
01-30-2015 06:27 PM
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DETLTU Offline
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Post: #38
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 06:27 PM)eager eagle Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 11:09 AM)DETLTU Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 10:48 AM)eager eagle Wrote:  
(01-30-2015 10:12 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  Here is the complete list of CUSA institutions; Courtesy of ODUOldtimer

CUSA Schools Ranks
1). Rice rank #30 $5,527 B
2). UAB rank T#227 $327 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...Birmingham
3). ODU rank #288 $213 M
4). Florida Atlantic rank #294 $208 M
5). Florida International rank #333 $ 176 M
6). North Texas rank #371 $143 M
7). UTEP rank T#351 $151 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...at_El_Paso
8). Charlotte rank #341 $168 M
9). Western Kentucky rank #390 $135 M
10). UTSA rank T#424 $113 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...an_Antonio
11). Marshall rank # 435 $108 M
12). LA Tech rank T#362 $94 M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tech_University
13). Middle Tennessee rank #483 $88 M
14). Southern Miss rank #515 $78 M

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

Louisiana requires an annual audit of its universities and their Foundations. The Louisiana Tech University opened its books to auditors for the fiscal year ending 6-30-2014 that showed the Louisiana Tech University Foundation to have NET assets of $45,489,988 and a NET endowment of $28,510,326. The auditors reviewed those records and agreed they were correct. The current fiscal year does not end until 06-30-2015.

Thus, you can believe the school and its auditors, or Wikipedia.
I figured this was coming. We've discussed it before but per note 12 from the auditors report:
Certain endowed fiinds are provided by the State of Louisiana as a match to these qualifying private endowed contributions. Once the match is received, the private endowed funds along with the matching endowed funds are transferred to the Due to Louisiana Tech University liability account.

Those funds cannot be an asset for the Foundation, but they are for the University.
Total value of that account is 40,493,409.

I know that doesn't fit with your agenda, but other people should know the truth at least.

La Tech was not included in the first listing but someone checked with Wikipedia which showed $94mil endowment resulting in a #12 rank in Cusa and about 360 or so nationally. I checked and simply quoted from the audit report which clearly identifies the La Tech endowment has a net value $28,510,326. Now, what you say is indeed correct but the figure you are talking about is mixing oranges and apples because the over $40mil INCLUDES state matching funds AND donated endowment money. We are talking here about endowments and NOT matching state funds because state funds are not guaranteed over the years whereas endowments are set in cement with only the interest available for use from year to year.

Close. The state matched funds shown in liabilities are only those that are already received. You are correct that when a donation is made to the endowment, the state matching funds are not guaranteed. That's why they stay in the general endowment figure until the state matching funds are received. When the state matches a 600k donation with the 400k state funds, the entire million is shown in the Due to University liability as well as the assets. It's money that the university has on hand as part of it's endowment. There is a huge backlog of matching funds still waiting for the state match that may never get paid. The $40 million is on hand and not subject to withdrawal by the state.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2015 09:17 PM by DETLTU.)
01-30-2015 09:13 PM
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Post: #39
RE: University Endowments
(01-29-2015 09:01 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 08:05 PM)banker Wrote:  Todge, last fiscal year they returned 15.4%. You can look it up, it's the first hit in Google. They have averaged 12% over the last 20 years.

http://www.hmc.harvard.edu

Oh, and Harvard costs $58,000 a year for tuition, room and board. They could charge $100,000 a year if they wanted, they have a 5% acceptance rate. Plenty of really rich people would pay whatever it took to get their kid in. Oh, and it's not like tuition is their only source of revenue.

I will give you this, you type a lot.

lets do the math a different way

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research...isting.pdf

in FY 2001 the Harvard endowment was $17,950.483,000

if one goes with the "rule of 72" with a 10% return on average you would double your money every 7.2 years

the S&P average from 1987 to 2012 was 9.61% which would double the money every 7.5 years

that would of course taking zero money out to be spent to double that money every 7.5 years with an S&P type return

here we are looking at Harvard with $35,883,691,000 in FY 2014

if Harvard was strictly meeting conservative S&P returns and taking zero money out from 2001 when they were at $17,950.483,000 they would have doubled that by FY 2008 to $35,900,966,000

in 2008 they had doubled that money and in fact had done better than that they were at $36,556,284,000

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research...tValue.pdf

and so from there they should be able to double that yet again in another 7 years right

well here we are 6 years later from 2008 looking at FY 2014 and the Harvard endowment is $35,883,691,000

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/Endowmen...Values.pdf

so in 6 years from FY 2008 to FY 2014 Harvard has lost $672,593,000 of their endowment

so if you look at a very conservative investment strategy for the long term attempting to double your money every 7.5 years to keep up with the S&P and taking no money out Harvard should have gone from $17,950.483,000 in FY 2001 to $35,900.966 in FY 2008 (they actually beat that) and then they should have gone from $35,900.966 in FY 2008 to be on track to hit $71,801.932 in FY 2015 if they were beating the S&P even slightly

but instead 6 years into that 7 years they are lower by nearly $700 million than in FY 2008

so it is very clear that Harvard is spending a large amount of dollars out of their endowment and the returns from that endowment and over the last 6 years not only have they not come close to meeting any type of strategy for keeping endowment growth up with inflation they have actually watched the endowment decrease in real dollars with or without inflation

so if they were to attempt to spend more they could watch their endowment further decline and not come close to keeping up with inflation much less growing in the short or long term

and I am well aware that the tuition for Harvard LISTED is above the numbers that I used, but Harvard only has 6,700 undergrads along with 14,500 grad students and I would imagine the vast majority of those undergrads are not paying close to that tuition you listed and pretty much all of the graduate students are not going to be paying that when you look at stipends for teaching and or research

even if they were all paying that full rate it is still only 1.2 billion out of a 4.2 billion dollar budget so that is 3 billion you need to find elsewhere

you have $694 million in external research so that leaves a lot of money still to find elsewhere

Harvard has 2,400 faculty members and 10,400 academic appointments in teaching hospitals

http://www.harvard.edu/harvard-glance

so that is quite a number of people to pay and provide benefits for as well

and as that link states

UNDERGRADUATE COST AND FINANCIAL AID

Families with students on scholarship pay an average of $11,500 annually toward the cost of a Harvard education. More than 65 percent of Harvard College students receive scholarship aid, and the average grant this year is $46,000.

Since 2007, Harvard’s investment in financial aid has climbed by more than 70 percent, from $96.6 million to $166 million per year.

During the 2012-2013 academic year, students from families with incomes below $65,000, and with assets typical for that income level, will generally pay nothing toward the cost of attending Harvard College. Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0 to 10 percent of income, depending on individual circumstances. Significant financial aid also is available for families above those income ranges.


so again as I stated a massive amount of the students at Harvard pay nowhere close to $50K+ per year

when you look at the fact that Harvard has barely doubled their endowment (with both investment returns AND donations included) in 13 years and over the last 6 years with investment returns AND donations their endowment is still down nearly $700 million it is pretty clear to see they are spending from their endowment at pretty much the highest possible rate that they can without doing long term damage and as in one of the articles I linked there is already concern they are doing long term damage

and as for what their investment website states about annual returns.....I am sure they handle investments besides strictly the endowment like the retirement for all those thousands of workers and staff members and I would imagine the returns on investment they quote would include that money as well which would not be the actual endowment

that or for some reason Harvard has chosen to misrepresent their endowment returns to the NACUBO for over a decade

I don't know about how you or anyone else looks at finances, but when I am 13 years into something and I have only barely doubled my money that I have invested I am either spending too much or I am not getting a proper return and all the worse when I am adding external funds (donations in the case of Harvard) and still at that point

and when I am 6 years into something and down nearly 700 million including investment returns and annual additions of funds (donations for Harvard) the last thing I would tell myself if I had an annual budget of 4.2 billion to meet is "I am not spending enough from the endowment I should give more financial aid and build more buildings and give staff members big raises"

unless I want to go broke like a pro athlete or a lotto winner

the numbers CLEARLY show that Harvard is sending a great deal of money from their endowment and relative to total endowment and long term endowment returns and their financial aid numbers show they are very generous even to families that have well above a middle class income and they go to great lengths to make Harvard affordable for them

I linked the website to the company whose only function is to administer the Harvard Endowment. On the site they discuss their investment strategy, their results, their funding to the university, and even provide PDF files to their last several annual reports. In spite of that, you go on a 100 paragraph rampage built on hypotheticals and assumptions. Are you just bored or do you really think your analysis will prove more accurate than the actual, audited results provided by the firm that manages the endowment?

I do find it interesting that Harvard has 2,400 faculty members considering they have less than 10,000 students. So basically you're saying there's a 4 to 1 ratio?
01-31-2015 12:11 AM
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BlueRaiderBoy Offline
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Post: #40
RE: University Endowments
(01-30-2015 10:01 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(01-29-2015 11:42 AM)FAUAEPi Wrote:  Why can't we ever discuss something fun and something we should win. Like hottest coeds for example.

Start a thread!

eta: I would, but I went to Rice. There wasn't much there while I was on campus (times may have changed, though).

Now that I reviewed this financial analysis, I make a Motion we set up the "PO' Folks Foundation" to collect donations for Marshall, La Tech, MT, and Southern Miss. We can let Rice and ODU be responsible for raising the Money. Clearly OWLS and MONARCHS got a Helluva lot more $ GREEN! Of course, FAU and FIU can contribute, too!
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2015 10:10 AM by BlueRaiderBoy.)
01-31-2015 10:09 AM
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