I think the new lights were added (on ESPN's dime) for the 1994 UT Sunday night game (19-17).

(10-06-2014 12:45 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 12:15 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-04-2014 09:49 PM)owlatheart Wrote:  So you wont be happy if we win games like this???

I won't, unless we're also winning all the other ones.

I think that's what some don't understand about the complaints...

If you have a Mercedes and it performs like a Yugo, you shouldn't be happy that it still gets you to work on time. Now we may be a Cadillac and not a Mercedes, but you get the point.

If I thought that how we were playing was the best we could do, that would be one thing, but while we can all hem and haw and debate how good (or not) Hawaii actually is, the fact remains that those that do this for a living don't think Hawaii is very good overall, and that they are arguably even worse on the road having now lost 15 in a row on the road and losing something like 25 of their last 30 overall while we keep patting ourselves on the back for having won something like 25 of our last 30 against similar competition. Either you are what your record says you are or you aren't. Either you are what the rankings say you are or you're not. I realize it may be different people doing this, but we seem to constantly want to argue both sides of the various coins.

We're all Owls and we all support this team, but there would be room for improvement had we won 48-7, and we didn't.

Very well put. I feel similarly - very happy that we won, however I don't think if we continue playing like this, we will be able to beat teams that are better than Hawaii, USM, UTSA, WKU etc etc. Winning is obviously better than not winning, but winning convincingly against such opposition at home is one of the ways that we can have confidence that 2014 ODU or (2011?) Memphis doesn't happen again. Marshall beat ODU 56-14. Both Rice and Marshall happy that they won this week, but which one do you think has more confidence about next week? And the week after? And the year after?

Not that different from New England this year in the NFL. They won 2 out of their first 3 games, but looked lousy in all 3 of them. It was only a matter of time before a better team like KC showed up and schooled them. I was happy that we were 2-1, but also fully prepared to get beaten by someone because those 2 wins weren't convincing and took some help from a weak opponent team to win. Now, having annihilated Cincinnati, I feel a lot better - but it wasn't due to the win, it was due to HOW the Patriots won and that they made changes and adjustments that hopefully will carry over.

Rice is still beating Oakland Raider quality teams by scores of 16-9. Better to win than not, but hardly a reproducible and comforting recipe for future success.

Agreed with all of the above, but I understand where the issue comes from, since this board is very hard to please. I'm sure if we had pulled the upset over ND or A&M we would have some posters complaining about play calling or player decisions. But then again, that's what these internet message boards are for, and at least we are better than TexAgs.

(10-06-2014 02:00 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Agreed with all of the above, but I understand where the issue comes from, since this board is very hard to please. I'm sure if we had pulled the upset over ND or A&M we would have some posters complaining about play calling or player decisions. But then again, that's what these internet message boards are for, and at least we are better than TexAgs.

I think that is incredibly unfair, Lad.

There is a massive difference between being happy with a hypothetical win, especially over a team like ND or A&M as you suggest, and being unwilling to recognize that when you break down the film of those games, there are STILL things that can be improved upon.

I think a big part of the reason we 'argue' on here (respectful as it may be) is that some of us simply aren't particularly competitive by nature and some of us are. Most of us would look at JT's TD from DJ and simply admire the play, but I'm betting that JT and DJ will look at it and still find SOME area of improvement. When you consider how many 'poor' plays we had in that game, there is PLENTY of room for improvement.

Of course the reality is that we have no idea how we'd react if we were to upset a team like ND or A&M because we haven't beaten someone in the top 25 (much less the top 10) since at least the 1990's.

Yes, some of us are not happy because we're relegated to being 'satisfied' with wins over teams not in the top 50... and sometimes not in the top 100, but is that really an example of being 'hard to please'?

(10-06-2014 02:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 02:00 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Agreed with all of the above, but I understand where the issue comes from, since this board is very hard to please. I'm sure if we had pulled the upset over ND or A&M we would have some posters complaining about play calling or player decisions. But then again, that's what these internet message boards are for, and at least we are better than TexAgs.

I think that is incredibly unfair, Lad.

There is a massive difference between being happy with a hypothetical win, especially over a team like ND or A&M as you suggest, and being unwilling to recognize that when you break down the film of those games, there are STILL things that can be improved upon.

I think a big part of the reason we 'argue' on here (respectful as it may be) is that some of us simply aren't particularly competitive by nature and some of us are. Most of us would look at JT's TD from DJ and simply admire the play, but I'm betting that JT and DJ will look at it and still find SOME area of improvement. When you consider how many 'poor' plays we had in that game, there is PLENTY of room for improvement.

Of course the reality is that we have no idea how we'd react if we were to upset a team like ND or A&M because we haven't beaten someone in the top 25 (much less the top 10) since at least the 1990's.

Yes, some of us are not happy because we're relegated to being 'satisfied' with wins over teams not in the top 50... and sometimes not in the top 100, but is that really an example of being 'hard to please'?

I think it's incredibly fair.

I agreed with the fact that both you and Antarius were not completely satisfied with this game, despite the W. This is not a win we should begin to even try to hang our hat on and it is appropriate to discuss the areas where the team can/should improve. And with that, we shouldn't be agitated when posters want to do just that.


But regardless of the reaction of this board to a win against a bad team, I bet there would still be griping on this board if we beat one of the big boys. And to state what seems to be the obvious doesn't seem to be unfair, it just seems to me like I'm calling a spade a spade.

(10-06-2014 02:00 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Agreed with all of the above, but I understand where the issue comes from, since this board is very hard to please. I'm sure if we had pulled the upset over ND or A&M we would have some posters complaining about play calling or player decisions. But then again, that's what these internet message boards are for, and at least we are better than TexAgs.

I don't quite agree. Yes, this board can be hard to please - we see that with baseball for sure. But Rice pulling off a win vs. top 10 aTm or ND would have been treated much differently than eking one out against Hawaii.

Also, as Hambone said, the discussion isn't to criticize as much as it is to analyze and see where we can improve. If someone could confidently say that Rice football will continue to play like this yet still run the table and eke out wins, a lot of the discussion would likely stop. Unfortunately, the likelihood of being able to do that is so small that we discuss, analyze and sometimes criticize things that we don't like with the hope that we improve for the next game.

Everybody's right. this is a hard group to please. probably the epitome of "you can't please everybody".

But nobody ever plays a perfect game. always something that needs work.

I bet the coaches always see stuff that needs work, regardless of who we play or the score.

Put a bit differently, despite winning the past two games, we are performing below expectations (or at least the expectations of most fans and pundits alike)...and that home loss to ODU was almost as bad as the Nichols State debacle. Consequently, why should we be "happy" with eking out a win at home against a team we are signficantly superior to talent wise? This team has underperformed badly the past 3 weeks, and the reality that we won two of those games does not change that fact. Certainly, from the quotes coming out of today's presser, the players recognize they have a long way to go to play at the standard expected of them and which they set for themselves.

(10-06-2014 03:19 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Everybody's right. this is a hard group to please. probably the epitome of "you can't please everybody".

But nobody ever plays a perfect game. always something that needs work.

I bet the coaches always see stuff that needs work, regardless of who we play or the score.

Buddy, the reality is that we stunk up the joint for all but the fourth quarter. No one's asking for or expecting anything close to perfection. What we expect is for them to play to a certain standard; especially against weaker opposition.

We are one game below preseason expectations for this point of the season, which would have been 3-2. We can make it up by winning one we were expected to lose. Unfortunately, the only one such left is Marshall.

Now, as to the expectations of not just winning, but winning big, winning easily, yep, need to improve to do that. There is a lot of inconsistency throughout college football this year, including us, and we need to get better consistently.

(10-06-2014 02:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I think it's incredibly fair.

But regardless of the reaction of this board to a win against a bad team, I bet there would still be griping on this board if we beat one of the big boys. And to state what seems to be the obvious doesn't seem to be unfair, it just seems to me like I'm calling a spade a spade.

Based on what evidence?

We haven't beaten a team in the top 25 on the road since 1991 and haven't beaten the Aggies since 1980. Most of us who REMEMBER back that far still celebrate our victory over Texas in 1994... and they were far from top10.

You seem to imply that we are simultaneously 'worse' than and 'better' than TexAgs.

'Griping' (your word) isn't constructive criticism or a dispassionate critique of a performance... which I 100% agree we would have (you can ALWAYS do better) and is somewhat in the nature of Rice people...

but to imply that we wouldn't be 'satisfied' with wins over either ND or A&M is without evidentiary support... and IMO, demeans some of the current criticisms, implying that we are merely malcontents.

I don't think that is in any way fair, though I'd love to find out and join you in criticism of those people.

(10-06-2014 12:53 PM)Barrett Wrote:  I think the new lights were added (on ESPN's dime) for the 1994 UT Sunday night game (19-17).

What were added for the 1994 Texas game were temporary lights. They were replaced with permanent new lights the next year (1995) IIRC.

(10-06-2014 03:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  We are one game below preseason expectations for this point of the season, which would have been 3-2. We can make it up by winning one we were expected to lose. Unfortunately, the only one such left is Marshall.

Now, as to the expectations of not just winning, but winning big, winning easily, yep, need to improve to do that. There is a lot of inconsistency throughout college football this year, including us, and we need to get better consistently.

Good grief, Buddy-- we're not playing well. Period. The fact that we are only one game off from expected W - L record is not the point. If you can be happy with any W, regardless of how we perform vs. expectation, that's your perogative, but quit criticizing those of us who have just slightly higher standards.

(10-06-2014 04:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 02:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I think it's incredibly fair.

But regardless of the reaction of this board to a win against a bad team, I bet there would still be griping on this board if we beat one of the big boys. And to state what seems to be the obvious doesn't seem to be unfair, it just seems to me like I'm calling a spade a spade.

Based on what evidence?

We haven't beaten a team in the top 25 on the road since 1991 and haven't beaten the Aggies since 1980. Most of us who REMEMBER back that far still celebrate our victory over Texas in 1994... and they were far from top10.

You seem to imply that we are simultaneously 'worse' than and 'better' than TexAgs.

'Griping' (your word) isn't constructive criticism or a dispassionate critique of a performance... which I 100% agree we would have (you can ALWAYS do better) and is somewhat in the nature of Rice people...

but to imply that we wouldn't be 'satisfied' with wins over either ND or A&M is without evidentiary support... and IMO, demeans some of the current criticisms, implying that we are merely malcontents.

I don't think that is in any way fair, though I'd love to find out and join you in criticism of those people.

Didn't intend to imply that people on the board would not be satisfied with wins, just that we would still have people on this board going over the negative aspects of the game, regardless of the outcome. And I chose gripe purposefully (per the dictionary definition: express a complaint or grumble about something, especially something trivial) because any negative comments following a giant win like that would probably be pretty trivial, IMO.

Negative comments following a win like we just had aren't really trivial, especially when we are expecting much better.

(10-06-2014 03:26 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 03:19 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Everybody's right. this is a hard group to please. probably the epitome of "you can't please everybody".

But nobody ever plays a perfect game. always something that needs work.

I bet the coaches always see stuff that needs work, regardless of who we play or the score.

Buddy, the reality is that we stunk up the joint for all but the fourth quarter. No one's asking for or expecting anything close to perfection. What we expect is for them to play to a certain standard; especially against weaker opposition.

Read it again, Walt. You jumped to a conclusion.

(10-06-2014 04:57 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 03:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  We are one game below preseason expectations for this point of the season, which would have been 3-2. We can make it up by winning one we were expected to lose. Unfortunately, the only one such left is Marshall.

Now, as to the expectations of not just winning, but winning big, winning easily, yep, need to improve to do that. There is a lot of inconsistency throughout college football this year, including us, and we need to get better consistently.

Good grief, Buddy-- we're not playing well. Period. The fact that we are only one game off from expected W - L record is not the point. If you can be happy with any W, regardless of how we perform vs. expectation, that's your perogative, but quit criticizing those of us who have just slightly higher standards.

Read this one again, too, Walt.

(10-06-2014 05:11 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Didn't intend to imply that people on the board would not be satisfied with wins, just that we would still have people on this board going over the negative aspects of the game, regardless of the outcome. And I chose gripe purposefully (per the dictionary definition: express a complaint or grumble about something, especially something trivial) because any negative comments following a giant win like that would probably be pretty trivial, IMO.

Negative comments following a win like we just had aren't really trivial, especially when we are expecting much better.

I understand what you're saying, but I guess we're just talking past each other.

We're using gripes about a win over #100+ to imply that there would also be 'gripes' about a win over #6. I suppose to the extent that there can always be dispassionate critique of any performance, I would agree... SOME still wouldn't be satisfied. I'd like to think that if we'd beaten ND, that we'd realize that we had just opened an opportunity for a multi-million-dollar payday that we really didn't want to blow, and that the criticism (dispassionate critique) therefore wouldn't really be trivial.

but any implication that we're just malcontent is silly

(10-06-2014 05:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 05:11 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Didn't intend to imply that people on the board would not be satisfied with wins, just that we would still have people on this board going over the negative aspects of the game, regardless of the outcome. And I chose gripe purposefully (per the dictionary definition: express a complaint or grumble about something, especially something trivial) because any negative comments following a giant win like that would probably be pretty trivial, IMO.

Negative comments following a win like we just had aren't really trivial, especially when we are expecting much better.

I understand what you're saying, but I guess we're just talking past each other.

We're using gripes about a win over #100+ to imply that there would also be 'gripes' about a win over #6. I suppose to the extent that there can always be dispassionate critique of any performance, I would agree... SOME still wouldn't be satisfied. I'd like to think that if we'd beaten ND, that we'd realize that we had just opened an opportunity for a multi-million-dollar payday that we really didn't want to blow, and that the criticism (dispassionate critique) therefore wouldn't really be trivial.

but any implication that we're just malcontent is silly

there is always going to be griping. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Think "constructive criticism" Think "loyal opposition".

Any coach that ever thinks there is no room for improvement is not a coach I want coaching a team I follow, from HS through pros.

But what is the score we could have made last Saturday that would result in general satisfaction? 56-0? 73-3? There is none.

And if we had beaten ND, would there be nothing to criticize? I think we could all find something we didn't like even in such a game. The difference is, some of us go out of our way to say those things and comment on them, others do not.

And if we had won at ND, but then lost to A$M, then what? Everybody still happy? I think not.

Ham, you are generally one of the "constructive" guys, but you are not average. Just as it is pretty easy to predict which fans will be happier with a win, it is pretty easy to predict which ones won't.

I am happy with the win. I would be happier with a better win. I would be even happier if we had led 50-0 at the half and played all the scrubs. But I would not be satisfied. Things would need to be addressed, and I think most of them are being addressed. The players know, the coaches know.

Now if we win 45-14 at Army I will be happy. I would be happier with 45-0, and I would be even happier with 56-0. But being happy is NOT, repeat, NOT, the same as being satisfied.

A win is a win is a win.

That being said, you can be happy with a win and still be displeased with the level of play.

As for comments that there are people who wouldn't have been satisfied with a win over ND or aTm, why don't we beat ND or aTm first and find out? It's not a win over ND or aTm that people are complaining about.

Would it take a win over ND or aTm for me to be happy at this point? No, a win over ODU.

(10-06-2014 05:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As for comments that there are people who wouldn't have been satisfied with a win over ND or aTm, why don't we beat ND or aTm first and find out? It's not a win over ND or aTm that people are complaining about.

+1

it is appropriate to push back on criticisms that are needlessly shrill and we should avoid ad hominems among ourselves.

But it is obvious that there are sharp differences in quality of play even among our wins. Think FAU and Marshall in 2013. FAU generated (appropriately IMHO) a great deal of concern about our level of preparation and in game coaching. Ditto UAB. Marshall generated, for the most part, euphoria.

The "you would find things to complain about if we had beaten TAMU" card is a straw man argument.

(10-06-2014 06:03 PM)MemOwl Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 05:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As for comments that there are people who wouldn't have been satisfied with a win over ND or aTm, why don't we beat ND or aTm first and find out? It's not a win over ND or aTm that people are complaining about.

+1

it is appropriate to push back on criticisms that are needlessly shrill and we should avoid ad hominems among ourselves.

But it is obvious that there are sharp differences in quality of play even among our wins. Think FAU and Marshall in 2013. FAU generated (appropriately IMHO) a great deal of concern about our level of preparation and in game coaching. Ditto UAB. Marshall generated, for the most part, euphoria.

The "you would find things to complain about if we had beaten TAMU" card is a straw man argument.

Hyperbole or baseless, sure. But straw man it is not. Never once tried to use this as a reason to state that we shouldn't be critical following a win, but rather that we would still have people being critical after a big win (an assumption that admittedly was not based on much but personal opinion).