Well considering the facilities he has to work with (we can agree it needs to improve and debate the extent of the improvement) and EMU's winning football tradition (there isn't one)I would say CC is doing an above average job in recruiting so far.

(09-30-2014 06:37 AM)emu79 Wrote:  Well considering the facilities he has to work with (we can agree it needs to improve and debate the extent of the improvement) and EMU's winning football tradition (there isn't one)I would say CC is doing an above average job in recruiting so far.

That may be true (although I'm not sure I agree). That said, EMU is getting killed in recruiting vs. our natural rivals, CMU, WMU, and UT (I'm not talking of say Buffalo, Ohio, Miami, etc. - teams we play once a few years - but we are being out recruited badly by teams we MUST beat each year).

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/footba...l-michigan

(10 3-star verbals)

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/footba...class/2015

(13 3-star verbals)

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/footba...class/2015

(13 3-star verbals)

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/footba...class/2015

(2 3-star verbals).

All of this comparison to English's second year might be fine, but we are getting our butts killed by teams we have to beat.

The existential reality isn't good. All of this losing so recruits won't come to a program with a coach on the hot seat and then a new coach has to ramp up recruiting literally kills programs.

P.J. is an almost new coach. Campbell at Toledo is fairly new.

Our goal is to be a winning MAC team or at least a competitive one. I see CC recruiting so far getting us to that goal.

(09-30-2014 09:34 AM)emu79 Wrote:  Our goal is to be a winning MAC team or at least a competitive one. I see CC recruiting so far getting us to that goal.

So far I do not.

We're far behind most MAC teams in talent (except UMass, Miami, and Kent) and I see nothing in 2014 or 2015 recruiting which will enable us to close the gap with the other schools, esp. our natural rivals.

CC is going to need to turn some water into wine or other similar miracles.

WMU's resurgence (assuming it pans out) means that we face another MAC West power (along with NIU and UT). Not good. The climb gets steeper for us the tougher our foes.

(09-30-2014 08:50 AM)emu steve Wrote:  That may be true (although I'm not sure I agree). That said, EMU is getting killed in recruiting vs. our natural rivals, CMU, WMU, and UT (I'm not talking of say Buffalo, Ohio, Miami, etc. - teams we play once a few years - but we are being out recruited badly by teams we MUST beat each year).

Steve,

I seem to remember you pointing out in the past that one cannot assess a recruiting class until 3-4 years later. It helps if you get a 3 or 4 star kid that might be considered a "can't miss" prospect, not sure how many or if any of those we'll get.

What we hope CC does though is evaluate potential better than other MAC coaches. Speed/quickness/athleticism and an athletes natural build (frame) are things that can't be coached but offer an important barometer of potential. These are what star ratings are built on. Next, the character of the recruits is what will drive the process of propelling the program upward. Both in guys that will embrace honing their craft and outworking other teams, and in embracing the team concept and being a great teammate.

This character "predictor" of talent we don't have a clue of based on star rating. We can only hope and trust that our staff is well equipped to evaluate their athletic potential and character potential.

I do like that our DB recruits are fast and athletic, just need to put on 20-30 pounds of muscle and let the coaches coach em up.

Dear EMU03,
Excellent point. That is why you cannot be that critical after one quarter of a season, and a school like Western has pretty much filled ip their recruiting allotment. That means that Eastern still can recruit some more three star players that are out there. Doesn't Eastern have four already? Pick up another four or five and we have just about equalled Western, but the point that EMU03 has made is, only time will tell.

(09-30-2014 09:55 AM)EMU03 Wrote:  

(09-30-2014 08:50 AM)emu steve Wrote:  That may be true (although I'm not sure I agree). That said, EMU is getting killed in recruiting vs. our natural rivals, CMU, WMU, and UT (I'm not talking of say Buffalo, Ohio, Miami, etc. - teams we play once a few years - but we are being out recruited badly by teams we MUST beat each year).

Steve,

I seem to remember you pointing out in the past that one cannot assess a recruiting class until 3-4 years later. It helps if you get a 3 or 4 star kid that might be considered a "can't miss" prospect, not sure how many or if any of those we'll get.

What we hope CC does though is evaluate potential better than other MAC coaches. Speed/quickness/athleticism and an athletes natural build (frame) are things that can't be coached but offer an important barometer of potential. These are what star ratings are built on. Next, the character of the recruits is what will drive the process of propelling the program upward. Both in guys that will embrace honing their craft and outworking other teams, and in embracing the team concept and being a great teammate.

This character "predictor" of talent we don't have a clue of based on star rating. We can only hope and trust that our staff is well equipped to evaluate their athletic potential and character potential.

I do like that our DB recruits are fast and athletic, just need to put on 20-30 pounds of muscle and let the coaches coach em up.

I understand your points, BUT...

If there are SO MANY unknowables, etc. etc. why do we have threads with hundreds of posts on something unknowable?

We are trying to assess something which is un-assessable, YET coaches do it every day, they decide which prospects are better prospects even though it isn't an exact science.

Folks in football make recruiting (or NFL draft) to be something of overwhelming importance (and that is why Ohio State is State and Ohio U. ain't).

I bet I can correlate the final 2011 and 2012 recruiting ranking with any 2014 college football ranking (e.g., coaches poll, AP poll, Sagarins, etc.) and teams in the top 25 polls will be very high up in the recruiting rankings for the classes say 2 or 3 years earlier.

That correlation is higher than most correlations in life. Bet it is up there with the correlation with education and lifetime earnings.

(09-30-2014 11:06 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(09-30-2014 09:55 AM)EMU03 Wrote:  

(09-30-2014 08:50 AM)emu steve Wrote:  That may be true (although I'm not sure I agree). That said, EMU is getting killed in recruiting vs. our natural rivals, CMU, WMU, and UT (I'm not talking of say Buffalo, Ohio, Miami, etc. - teams we play once a few years - but we are being out recruited badly by teams we MUST beat each year).

Steve,

I seem to remember you pointing out in the past that one cannot assess a recruiting class until 3-4 years later. It helps if you get a 3 or 4 star kid that might be considered a "can't miss" prospect, not sure how many or if any of those we'll get.

What we hope CC does though is evaluate potential better than other MAC coaches. Speed/quickness/athleticism and an athletes natural build (frame) are things that can't be coached but offer an important barometer of potential. These are what star ratings are built on. Next, the character of the recruits is what will drive the process of propelling the program upward. Both in guys that will embrace honing their craft and outworking other teams, and in embracing the team concept and being a great teammate.

This character "predictor" of talent we don't have a clue of based on star rating. We can only hope and trust that our staff is well equipped to evaluate their athletic potential and character potential.

I do like that our DB recruits are fast and athletic, just need to put on 20-30 pounds of muscle and let the coaches coach em up.

I understand your points, BUT...

If there are SO MANY unknowables, etc. etc. why do we have threads with hundreds of posts on something unknowable?

We are trying to assess something which is un-assessable, YET coaches do it every day, they decide which prospects are better prospects even though it isn't an exact science.

Folks in football make recruiting (or NFL draft) to be something of overwhelming importance (and that is why Ohio State is State and Ohio U. ain't).

I bet I can correlate the final 2011 and 2012 recruiting ranking with any 2014 college football ranking (e.g., coaches poll, AP poll, Sagarins, etc.) and teams in the top 25 polls will be very high up in the recruiting rankings for the classes say 2 or 3 years earlier.

That correlation is higher than most correlations in life. Bet it is up there with the correlation with education and lifetime earnings.

Well Steve then according to you we might as well quit right now in having a football team or go FBS. As you previously stated if English couldn't turn it around no one could. So far it appears to me that you think CC is a pre determined failure and we'll never win the talent race. So then I must ask you why bother to build the Taj Mahal stadium that you think we need? Why Heather Lyke must out of her mind to think about improving a stadium that no comes to and for a coach like CC that according to you is pre-destined to fail?

Wow talk about being a Debbie Downer.

(09-30-2014 11:40 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(09-30-2014 11:06 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(09-30-2014 09:55 AM)EMU03 Wrote:  

(09-30-2014 08:50 AM)emu steve Wrote:  That may be true (although I'm not sure I agree). That said, EMU is getting killed in recruiting vs. our natural rivals, CMU, WMU, and UT (I'm not talking of say Buffalo, Ohio, Miami, etc. - teams we play once a few years - but we are being out recruited badly by teams we MUST beat each year).

Steve,

I seem to remember you pointing out in the past that one cannot assess a recruiting class until 3-4 years later. It helps if you get a 3 or 4 star kid that might be considered a "can't miss" prospect, not sure how many or if any of those we'll get.

What we hope CC does though is evaluate potential better than other MAC coaches. Speed/quickness/athleticism and an athletes natural build (frame) are things that can't be coached but offer an important barometer of potential. These are what star ratings are built on. Next, the character of the recruits is what will drive the process of propelling the program upward. Both in guys that will embrace honing their craft and outworking other teams, and in embracing the team concept and being a great teammate.

This character "predictor" of talent we don't have a clue of based on star rating. We can only hope and trust that our staff is well equipped to evaluate their athletic potential and character potential.

I do like that our DB recruits are fast and athletic, just need to put on 20-30 pounds of muscle and let the coaches coach em up.

I understand your points, BUT...

If there are SO MANY unknowables, etc. etc. why do we have threads with hundreds of posts on something unknowable?

We are trying to assess something which is un-assessable, YET coaches do it every day, they decide which prospects are better prospects even though it isn't an exact science.

Folks in football make recruiting (or NFL draft) to be something of overwhelming importance (and that is why Ohio State is State and Ohio U. ain't).

I bet I can correlate the final 2011 and 2012 recruiting ranking with any 2014 college football ranking (e.g., coaches poll, AP poll, Sagarins, etc.) and teams in the top 25 polls will be very high up in the recruiting rankings for the classes say 2 or 3 years earlier.

That correlation is higher than most correlations in life. Bet it is up there with the correlation with education and lifetime earnings.

Well Steve then according to you we might as well quit right now in having a football team or go FBS. As you previously stated if English couldn't turn it around no one could. So far it appears to me that you think CC is a pre determined failure and we'll never win the talent race. So then I must ask you why bother to build the Taj Mahal stadium that you think we need? Why Heather Lyke must out of her mind to think about improving a stadium that no comes to and for a coach like CC that according to you is pre-destined to fail?

Wow talk about being a Debbie Downer.

Not so.

BobW and I say that we must improve the stadium, budget, eliminate some 'body bag' money games, etc. etc. before recruiting will improve.

We are having a 'chicken and egg' debate.

Is CC in over his head-No

Is Brady Hoke in over his head- absolutely.

The situation is worse down the road and that makes me appreciate the honest and integrity guided program that CC has begun. I would rather make national news for knocking down a brick wall than playing a QB who was hit by one and clearly concussed.


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

I just want to make sure my comments are not misinterpreted.

I believe CC has excellent skills to run a football program.

I do NOT know how to ascribe what is happening with the offense of this team, esp. the mess at QB (it did return Roback).

I do believe that the coaching staff really lacks FBS experience (only two asst coaches have FBS experience which is pretty minimal).

Once again, running a FBS football program is managing the program, hiring assistants, game day, recruiting, S&C, etc.

I do believe that his final year, English, brought in some D-II asst coaches and quite frankly I thought their areas, e.g., special teams, were poor.

Lets do some clarification here. One I am comparing CC's ability to recruit compared with previous EMU football coaches. So when I make a statement like CC has 16 verbals by the end of September and I can't recall another coach doing that I'm referring to other EMU football including Ron English. Another example is that Ron English and CC were hired about the same time and had to scramble to put their first class together and you could compare English's and CC's first class and were they were ranked.

I'm going to speculate here and say that in a majority of Ron English's five years at EMU EMU was ranked lower in football recruiting than CMU, Toledo and WMU. There were a couple of years I know where it was ranked dead last or second to dead last. The fact that CMU, Toledo and WMU have outrecruited us is nothing new. It hasn't stopped us from beating WMU on the football field. I didn't see the pity party apparently Steve has now that's happening under CC.

Here's a suggestion Steve next time you and Heather are in the suite maybe you can express your disappointment to her that she hired a coach that can't seem to outrecruit CMU, WMU or Toledo. I'd be interested in hearing her reaction.

(10-01-2014 05:49 AM)emu79 Wrote:  Lets do some clarification here. One I am comparing CC's ability to recruit compared with previous EMU football coaches. So when I make a statement like CC has 16 verbals by the end of September and I can't recall another coach doing that I'm referring to other EMU football including Ron English. Another example is that Ron English and CC were hired about the same time and had to scramble to put their first class together and you could compare English's and CC's first class and were they were ranked.

I'm going to speculate here and say that in a majority of Ron English's five years at EMU EMU was ranked lower in football recruiting than CMU, Toledo and WMU. There were a couple of years I know where it was ranked dead last or second to dead last. The fact that CMU, Toledo and WMU have outrecruited us is nothing new. It hasn't stopped us from beating WMU on the football field. I didn't see the pity party apparently Steve has now that's happening under CC.

Here's a suggestion Steve next time you and Heather are in the suite maybe you can express your disappointment to her that she hired a coach that can't seem to outrecruit CMU, WMU or Toledo. I'd be interested in hearing her reaction.

Sir, that logic is almost laughable.

So you're comparing the results of a new coach to a coach who was fired with a very poor record and trying to use that as a bench mark????

BTW, getting verbals early or late is like filing income tax returns - some do it early, others take their time. Just so long as it is done by April 15. Who cares. No story there.

Do like P.J. He took over a program and recruited up a storm which has got acclaim through college football.

That is a story. Otherwise, I see no memorable story here.

The bottom line is that a program recruits against and competes against member of their conference, esp. their division. To say that EMU beat WMU in the past is fine, but the future is the future and the future doesn't look good (vis-à-vis WMU).

CC must out recruit, or be recruit competitively with, P.J., Dan Enos, Matt Campbell, etc.

I believe BobW and I both see another team, WMU, moving up into the top tier in the MAC West teams. Good for the MAC. Not good for EMU.

EMU must break the 'cycle of (football) poverty' and it takes a lot more than recruiting spin (recruiting spin is of little value - players can play or they can't and if they can't all of the spin is a total waste of time).

Dear Steve,
Western has not proven anything yet. They have played a comparatively weak schedule so far and have one more win then Eastern. You must believe all the press about them, which I take with a grain of salt.
If some of the stories I have heard about the way that Coach Fleck recruits are true, then he is unethical as a coach. Let's see what happens the rest of the season, and then see where the chips have fallen.

(10-01-2014 07:37 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Steve,
Western has not proven anything yet. They have played a comparatively weak schedule so far and have one more win then Eastern. You must believe all the press about them, which I take with a grain of salt.
If some of the stories I have heard about the way that Coach Fleck recruits are true, then he is unethical as a coach. Let's see what happens the rest of the season, and then see where the chips have fallen.

Sir, I have watched EMU play 3.5 games (I missed 1/2 of the FL game) and WMU 3 (Purdue, Idaho, and Va Tech - Va Tech was telecast in my home market and EMU didn't play so I watched them.).

If I'm competent to comment on EMU, then I competent to speak on WMU.

I've watched Terrell (QB) improve dramatically, Franklin is the best RB in the MAC and maybe FOY in FBS, Braverman (WR) has been very impressive, Corey David (inj - back Saturday).

This team is very, very impressive offensively.

I have been on the Akron and WMU band wagons very early and still on...

Dear Steve,
I am not questioning your competence to speak on any subject, but you almost never address any issue I bring up. How about possible unethical recruiting practices? What about a weak schedule? You deflect and go off on how good their offense performs. It should when you have the schedule they have had.

(10-01-2014 08:35 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Steve,
I am not questiog
ning your competence to speak on any subject, but you almost never address any issue I bring up. How about possible unethical recruiting practices? What about a weak schedule? You deflect and go off on how good their offense performs. It should when you have the schedule they have had.

Weak schedule? They played Purdue, Va Tech, Idaho, etc AND COMPETED something Eastern did not do. I guess when they thump EMU, head to head you will give them some credit?

(10-01-2014 11:34 AM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 08:35 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Steve,
I am not questiog
ning your competence to speak on any subject, but you almost never address any issue I bring up. How about possible unethical recruiting practices? What about a weak schedule? You deflect and go off on how good their offense performs. It should when you have the schedule they have had.

Weak schedule? They played Purdue, Va Tech, Idaho, etc AND COMPETED something Eastern did not do. I guess when they thump EMU, head to head you will give them some credit?

http://espn.go.com/ncf/conferences/stand...&year=2014

WMU has played 3 roads games, two against P5 teams and are + on points for / points against for the season.

I find that impressive and BTW 33% of the season has been completed (pls no 'small sample' comments) by both EMU and WMU.

Dear Bob,
Idaho and Murray State are not very good football teams. Purdue has only beaten Western and Southern Illinois, and is probably destined to near the basement of the Big Ten.
If, things continue for Virginia Tech they may be in for a so-so season. So yes, Western has not played very tough opponents so far. If they beat Toledo then they may have something going for them.

Dear Steve,
The positive point spread for Western is only about 15 points, better than negative, but nothing to write home about.

(10-01-2014 08:35 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Steve,
How about possible unethical recruiting practices?

I'd be curious to hear about these possible unethical recruiting practices.