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Alright, I've compiled a list of all returning QB's in the MAC (not listed: Toledo, NIU, Ball St., Ohio, EMU, Miami, UMass) to give some of you something to chew on here...

There are 6 returning QB's in the league: Zach Terrell (WMU), Joe Licata (Buffalo), Matt Johnson (BGSU), Kyle Pohl (Akron), Colin Reardon (Kent St.), and Cooper Rush (CMU). Here's how they all did in their inaugural campaign's in order of best QBR to worst QBR:

Quarterback A: 237/369, 3,467 yards, 25 TD, 7 INT, 161.7 QB rating
Quarterback B: 233/402, 2,824 yards, 24 TD, 8 INT, 132.7 QB rating
Quarterback C: 177/312, 2,349 yards, 15 TD, 15 INT, 126.2 QB rating
Quarterback D: 186/316, 1,957 yards, 12 TD, 9 INT, 117.7 QB rating
Quarterback E: 225/402, 2,438 yards, 14 TD, 10 INT, 113.4 QB rating
Quarterback F: 133/251, 1,602 yards, 8 TD, 8 INT, 110.7 QB rating

You guessed it, our quarterback ended up dead last on that list. Granted, Terrell had fewer pass attempts than anyone else on that list but QBR takes that into account. It projects that even if he had as many pass attempts as guys like Colin Reardon and Kyle Pohl, his overall effectiveness was still lower. As they say, "numbers never lie."

After the Purdue game, Terrell's QBR was 117. That still puts him at 5th on this list. Again... serviceable at best. I don't want a "serviceable QB". That doesn't win you divisions and MAC championships.

Hope to see improvement these next few weeks against Idaho and Murray State.



A: Matt Johnson (BGSU)
B: Joe Licata (Buffalo)
C: Cooper Rush (CMU)
D: Colin Reardon (Kent St.)
E: Kyle Pohl (Akron)
F: Zach Terrell (WMU)

I don't get why you're ripping on the kid. Shouldn't you be mad at Coach for putting him in there instead of the other options?

Maybe he's the best option?

And maybe one good half of football and one bad half of football against a ****** team isn't enough of a sample size to be calling for someone's head?

And Zach is the only one of the QB's to go up against B1G talent. Of the rest, KSU played Ohio and all the others played FCS teams. Hardly an equitable comparison.

(09-03-2014 01:49 PM)thegeneral Wrote:  I don't get why you're ripping on the kid. Shouldn't you be mad at Coach for putting him in there instead of the other options?

Maybe he's the best option?

And maybe one good half of football and one bad half of football against a ****** team isn't enough of a sample size to be calling for someone's head?

Who is "ripping" on him? I'm not allowed to have a discussion about our QB play?

All the talk I hear about the Chimp mods over on their message board sure seems hypocritical all of a sudden. Guess we're not allowed to have opinions now unless they fall in line with our resident thought police either.

(09-03-2014 01:59 PM)Broncobelt Wrote:  And Zach is the only one of the QB's to go up against B1G talent. Of the rest, KSU played Ohio and all the others played FCS teams. Hardly an equitable comparison.

Reading comprehension is key.

I'll give you another chance to go back and re-read what I wrote before I school you.

You're obviously ripping on him. And you are allowed to have a discussion. However, it seems Coach is beyond reproach while the players he's fielding take the brunt. I'm just wondering if he's the best option there is. If not, I don't see why PJF isn't getting criticism here.

It's all whose ox is being gored I guess. You can't stand talk against PJ, but yet you're all for talk against the players.

In any case, I still feel 1 game is too soon to be demanding a change. A change after one half is definitely too soon, which is what some here wanted.

(09-03-2014 02:21 PM)thegeneral Wrote:  You're obviously ripping on him. And you are allowed to have a discussion. However, it seems Coach is beyond reproach while the players he's fielding take the brunt. I'm just wondering if he's the best option there is. If not, I don't see why PJF isn't getting criticism here.

It's all whose ox is being gored I guess. You can't stand talk against PJ, but yet you're all for talk against the players.

In any case, I still feel 1 game is too soon to be demanding a change. A change after one half is definitely too soon, which is what some here wanted.

I think as fans, we are allowed to be critical, make comments, draw conclusions, and come up with reasons to back that up. I truly don't think anything I've said has been "out of bounds" so to speak. I haven't made any "personal attacks" against the young man.

I'll be critical of Fleck when I believe it's time to be critical. In fact, I was very critical of his comments at MAC Media Day. That's documented. I'm not ready to be overly critical of him yet, because to date, I've honestly seen more good than bad. That's just my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. Hell, the reason I've been so supportive of him is BECAUSE of the players' opinion of him and how he has treated them since day one. But once again that falls upon deaf ears here sometimes.

Terrell's poor arm strength, inaccurate throws, and late reads are not Fleck's fault. That's just my opinion. You're free to disagree.

Is Terrell our best option right now? I don't know the answer to that. I've been consistent from the beginning (if anybody who's criticized my posts actually reads them first), that if he doesn't show improvement against Idaho and Murray State, then I want to see what Cam Thomas and maybe even Chance Stewart has.

You wanted to see a QB change after 30 minutes of football, not "wait and see for Idaho and Murray St".

(09-03-2014 02:51 PM)thegeneral Wrote:  You wanted to see a QB change after 10 appearances and 7 starts of football, not "wait and see for Idaho and Murray St".

FIFY.

(09-03-2014 02:19 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 01:59 PM)Broncobelt Wrote:  And Zach is the only one of the QB's to go up against B1G talent. Of the rest, KSU played Ohio and all the others played FCS teams. Hardly an equitable comparison.

Reading comprehension is key.

I'll give you another chance to go back and re-read what I wrote before I school you.

Gawd, you can be condescending at times! I did reread your comment and you mentioned nothing about the caliber of competition each QB went up against.

(09-03-2014 03:22 PM)Broncobelt Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 02:19 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 01:59 PM)Broncobelt Wrote:  And Zach is the only one of the QB's to go up against B1G talent. Of the rest, KSU played Ohio and all the others played FCS teams. Hardly an equitable comparison.

Reading comprehension is key.

I'll give you another chance to go back and re-read what I wrote before I school you.

Gawd, you can be condescending at times! I did reread your comment and you mentioned nothing about the caliber of competition each QB went up against.

Well it's awfully hard not to retort when you have a pattern of responding to my posts without even reading and taking into context what I wrote. I'm still literally in shock that you claimed to have read it twice (doubtful) and still can't figure out where you went wrong.

Here, I'll break it down for you. Here's what I wrote (read full post earlier in thread for third time). This time, I'll bold and underline the key words for you:

(09-03-2014 01:17 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Alright, I've compiled a list of all returning QB's in the MAC (not listed: Toledo, NIU, Ball St., Ohio, EMU, Miami, UMass) to give some of you something to chew on here...

There are 6 returning QB's in the league: Zach Terrell (WMU), Joe Licata (Buffalo), Matt Johnson (BGSU), Kyle Pohl (Akron), Colin Reardon (Kent St.), and Cooper Rush (CMU). Here's how they all did in their inaugural campaign's in order of best QBR to worst QBR:

Quarterback D: 186/316, 1,957 yards, 12 TD, 9 INT, 117.7 QB rating

Unless Colin Reardon threw 316 pass attempts and 12 TD's last weekend in a 17-14 loss against Ohio, clearly we aren't talking about the 2014 season.

Now, going back to your comment:

(09-03-2014 01:59 PM)Broncobelt Wrote:  And Zach is the only one of the QB's to go up against B1G talent. Of the rest, KSU played Ohio and all the others played FCS teams. Hardly an equitable comparison.

Again, your comments tell me you clearly didn't read my post. From the statistics I provided above (they are from 2013, a.k.a. last season), Cooper Rush is the only returning quarterback who didn't play against "B1G talent" last season:
Zach Terrell (MSU)
Kyle Pohl (Michigan)
Matt Johnson (Indiana)
Joe Licata (OSU)
Colin Reardon (Penn St.)

So, yes, very comparable IMO.

It is seriously like talking to a cinder block wall with some of you.

(09-03-2014 03:53 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Again, your comments tell me you clearly didn't read my post. From the statistics I provided above (they are from 2013, a.k.a. last season), Cooper Rush is the only returning quarterback who didn't play against "B1G talent" last season:
Zach Terrell (MSU)
Kyle Pohl (Michigan)
Matt Johnson (Indiana)
Joe Licata (OSU)
Colin Reardon (Penn St.)

So, yes, very comparable IMO.

It is seriously like talking to a cinder block wall with some of you.

But you aren't talking about replacing him last year, you are talking about replacing him THIS year

You said

(09-03-2014 01:17 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  After the Purdue game, Terrell's QBR was 117. That still puts him at 5th on this list. Again... serviceable at best. I don't want a "serviceable QB". That doesn't win you divisions and MAC championships.

Since Terrell played against B1G team you cannot compare his first game performance with an entire season's worth of performances from all of the other returning QBs, unless they played all of their games against B1G talent.

You CAN compare last years performances but you and many others have already stated that WMU didn't have the talent to compete last year (unless they did and it's the coaches fault). Wouldn't this lack of talent hurt Terrell's numbers when compared to those other teams?

This year is supposed to be a wash, more learning and growing for Peej and the youngsters.

You say you don't want a "serviceable" qb? Well guess what? I don't want a coach learning his craft on our time.

Your defense of everything Fleck isn't holding up when you pick at his choice of starting qb this way.

(09-03-2014 04:23 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  This year is supposed to be a wash, more learning and growing for Peej and the youngsters.

You say you don't want a "serviceable" qb? Well guess what? I don't want a coach learning his craft on our time.

Your defense of everything Fleck isn't holding up when you pick at his choice of starting qb this way.

Well then apparently he isn't defending everything Fleck is he.....

(09-03-2014 04:29 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 04:23 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  This year is supposed to be a wash, more learning and growing for Peej and the youngsters.

You say you don't want a "serviceable" qb? Well guess what? I don't want a coach learning his craft on our time.

Your defense of everything Fleck isn't holding up when you pick at his choice of starting qb this way.

Well then apparently he isn't defending everything Fleck is he.....

Here's the problem ... he is and doesnt even realize it.

Or thinks he has data to convince otherwise. But to date more and more folk are pointing out that he used the same logic to context to support Fleck and now dismiss Zach. He's not fooling anyone, except ...

Up top a couple comments ago he rails on someone for not understanding context.

My gosh. That's the pot calling the kettle black.

Name one QB in the history of the game that can claim their stats are soley on them? Go ahead.

Historical context.

Bob Griese. Exceptional QB at Purdue, no less. Followed Len Dawson, preceded Mike Phipps who eventually was followed by Mark Hermann, Scott Campbell and then Jim Everett. A culture of flinging the rock.

Griese, as the others had unbelievable college stats. But the culture of flinging it played a significant role in amassing those #'s.

Move ahead in Griese's career. Overall a winner. Superbowl wins. Played with great teammates as at Purdue. But his numbers would never put him in the top 25 of all time NFL QB's.

Did he lose skill? Did they not transfer? Was there a drop in coaching skill?

I'd argue that he went from one system of play to a very different one. At PU he wasnt called to hand off the ball nearly as much as down in Miami.

It's called Context.

Griese didnt go bad, he just went differently. The situation and surrounding circumstances dictated such. His teammates have been forever grateful.

(09-03-2014 01:09 PM)Stampede your face!! Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 12:37 PM)cawoo22 Wrote:  QB is an enormously difficult position to learn to play at the college level. In 2007, when NIU was 2-10, we had guys on the board screaming to burn Chandler Harnish's redshirt to "see what he's got" or "get him experience".

Harnish started the season in 2008 as a redshirt freshman and spent 2 years either hurt or mediocre (mostly due to making mistakes). In 2010, he didn't even start the season. I remember thinking, "I guess this is just what Harnish is. Occasionally, great, usually frustrating." DeMarcus Grady (who was the same age, and was also getting screams to burn his RS in '07) was the starter. They went back to Harnish in game 2 and he took off.

It took two years for one of the MAC's most successful QBs to get things figured out, which sounds about right when you factor in the 8 or so games he missed due to injury (18-19 year-old skinny guys don't stand up to beatings very well).

Had his redshirt been burned, he would have graduated in 2010 and never had the Vern Smith season in 2011 when he was 22. 22 year-old college football players are almost certainly going to be better than the 18 year-old version of the same guy.

Certain guys' talent just demand they play as a true freshman. Jimmie ward was that kind of guy. A QB, though, involves so much more than just the physical tools. It would take a once-in-a-generation talent to have me burn that RS on a QB (or an offensive lineman, for that matter).

Agree with pretty much everything said here. Including the offensive lineman comment. I don't like that it appears we are burning the RS season on Okarafor, but concede that it might be a necessity to get Moton a rest here and there. Hopefully, Jon Jackson, Jackson Day, and Andrew Aurand are enough to be able to RS the other guys.

If you burn CS's redshirt before giving Thomas a full blown opportunity..assuming ZT does not pan out, it would be sheer madness. That would mean we are 5-6 games into the season with 3 active QB's. You'll have 2 QB's looking for pt and there will be none or very limited action for just one. From where I watched ZT made a helluva comeback in the second half against Purdue. I think his future is very bright and baring injury, Thomas will see mop up time only. RS CS is the only reasonable path for now and the future.

Go back and read the game thread and you'll see that there were literally more than a dozen posters calling out Terrell before I even mentioned one word about his play. I just happen to be one of the louder ones now defending my opinion of his play after the game. And even then, as I've said time and time again, I'm giving him until Idaho (#150 according to Sagarin rankings) and Murray State (#157) to prove me wrong. I don't think that's unreasonable.

By then, we'll have had a very good sample size of his work (13 games and 10 starts). If his numbers don't improve against teams like Idaho and Murray State, then how can we expect to compete in the MAC? It's a legitimate question. I understand he's a smart kid and does a good job of limiting mistakes, but I'm not convinced he's ever going to be the guy that can single-handedly win games for us.

I can be persuaded into redshirting Stewart this year... but if we're 1-3 heading into MAC play, our offensive line is still giving our QB good protection, Jarvion Franklin and the running game is still plugging along, and QB play still hasn't improved, I'm going to grow impatient pretty quickly knowing there could be better options sitting on the bench. If Cam Thomas comes in and stinks it up, then at least we know we had no regrets and played our best guy.

It doesn't mean pull the plug permanently... it just means, let's see what we've got sitting on the bench and why not give it a shot? In the second year of a rebuild, expectations are still pretty low, and we have a 4-star kid supposedly red-shirting and learning the offense, what do we have to lose by inserting Thomas if things go south quickly again?

Perhaps I'm getting greedy and I need to cope with the fact that this is still not a very good football team... but I feel like I saw glimpses of promise on Saturday with great protection from the OL, Jarvion Franklin getting loose, and Daniel Braverman opening up the field on the edges. That doesn't even take into account guys like Corey Davis, Eric Boyden, Darius Phillips, and Kendrick Roberts.

Last season, Terrell was arguably one of the best players on the offensive unit IMO, so it was hard to criticize. This year we are deeper and have more weapons, but I felt like at times we were limited by Terrell's accuracy, his ability to make quick decisions and zip the ball in there.

Like Fleck said about Jarvion Franklin... "You don't know what you're going to get. He didn't run over anybody like that in his first play with us. That was kind of one of the hesitations of the coaching staff, 'Will he do it when the lights are on?'"

Somebody talk me off the ledge...

I think maybe you are getting a little greedy. I still think you have to throw last years stats out completely and look at this year alone. So far he had 1 bad half and one solid half against a poor B1G team. Too soon to tell. Ultimately we don't want to be a team that has to rely on one player to single-handedly win us a game. That's where we have been in the recent past and it's never gotten us over the hump.

I agree that if he completely bombs the next two games then we give Cam a shot, but Terrell is just as likely to dominate the next two games as he is to fail. It's too soon to tell and there is too much speculation. Let the kid play some more and show us what he can do with these new weapons. The coaches felt that he clearly won the QB battle, give him a chance to show us why.

Not that I'm owed a response but I did ask for supportive evidence to address context and have heard crickets.

1. Does WMU script plays and going into the PU game did they do so?

2. Experts who are "in the know" regarding the specifics at WMU who support the contention that Terrell is only serviceable, Thomas an unknown and Chance Stewart is something special. I would like names. It shouldn't be difficult because they have made it public to Brian Persky.

GBL - you're asking for answers that you probably aren't ever going to get.

I've given about as much supporting evidence as I can possibly provide. It's a message board full of fans. We all have opinions. I'm just sharing mine on our QB play.