(08-26-2014 10:20 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:12 AM)jh Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 07:55 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 11:34 PM)jh Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 08:33 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  You can get emotions out of words?

As your entire premise is based on you being able to divine her emotions based on her words, I'll go with yes.

Quote:Believe me, you will be able to tell if I am upset.

I'm positively giddy with anticipation.

Quote:Like I said earlier, just because I am voicing my opinion, doesn't mean I am upset.

So why do you think she was upset? She voiced her opinion in much more measured words than you did.

Quote:Does she have the right to say whatever she wants? Hell yeah she does. If she doesn't like bacon, she doesn't have to look at that sign, she can put her hand up or turn away.

Just so we are clear, your idea of her being able to say whatever she wants to say is that she is free to not look at the sign? That is certainly an interesting perspective.

Quote:She is impeding other people to voice their opinions. This business has the right to put anything they wants on a sign, as long as its in good taste.

No, she is expressing her own opinion. She thinks the sign is in poor taste. That's a stupid opinion, but the First Amendment protects those too. You are the one saying she should leave the country merely for expressing her own opinion. That is an even stupider opinion, but I believe you have every right to express it. Just as I have every right to point out just how stupid it is. The proper response to bad speech is more speech, not less.
And in the event that the Front Porch website is actually a municipal government site and she was seeking government action, then she was taking advantage of a different portion of the First Amendment as well.

Quote:Do you think she is more American than you or I?

I have no idea, but it makes no difference to me. I'm not the one telling her to go back to her country. I have no reason to believe that America isn't her country.

So you want me to leave the country I fought for because I am expressing my first amendment right? hmmmm amazing how that works huh?

Yes, clearly that is what I am saying. Even though I actually said the opposite, what I really meant was that your idea about wanting people who exercise their rights under the First Amendment to criticize the speech of others to leave the country is a brilliant plan.

Do you have a better plan?

I already presented a better plan. One involving more speech, not suppressing speech.

And if you actually think your plan is a good idea, you should lead by example. Talk is cheap. It's like those rich liberals who advocate for higher taxes while taking advantage of every loophole imaginable and refusing to contribute extra money to the treasury. But before you do that, I sincerely hope you reconsider your plan. The First Amendment means nothing if it only applies to speech we agree with.

(08-26-2014 10:36 AM)jh Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:20 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:12 AM)jh Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 07:55 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 11:34 PM)jh Wrote:  As your entire premise is based on you being able to divine her emotions based on her words, I'll go with yes.
I'm positively giddy with anticipation.
So why do you think she was upset? She voiced her opinion in much more measured words than you did.
Just so we are clear, your idea of her being able to say whatever she wants to say is that she is free to not look at the sign? That is certainly an interesting perspective.
No, she is expressing her own opinion. She thinks the sign is in poor taste. That's a stupid opinion, but the First Amendment protects those too. You are the one saying she should leave the country merely for expressing her own opinion. That is an even stupider opinion, but I believe you have every right to express it. Just as I have every right to point out just how stupid it is. The proper response to bad speech is more speech, not less.
And in the event that the Front Porch website is actually a municipal government site and she was seeking government action, then she was taking advantage of a different portion of the First Amendment as well.
I have no idea, but it makes no difference to me. I'm not the one telling her to go back to her country. I have no reason to believe that America isn't her country.

So you want me to leave the country I fought for because I am expressing my first amendment right? hmmmm amazing how that works huh?

Yes, clearly that is what I am saying. Even though I actually said the opposite, what I really meant was that your idea about wanting people who exercise their rights under the First Amendment to criticize the speech of others to leave the country is a brilliant plan.

Do you have a better plan?

I already presented a better plan. One involving more speech, not suppressing speech.

And if you actually think your plan is a good idea, you should lead by example. Talk is cheap. It's like those rich liberals who advocate for higher taxes while taking advantage of every loophole imaginable and refusing to contribute extra money to the treasury. But before you do that, I sincerely hope you reconsider your plan. The First Amendment means nothing if it only applies to speech we agree with.

So you are criticizing me for my freedom of speech? Amazing how that works right? So we are just going to go around in circles. Next thing you know, they are going to start complaining about my Marine Corps sticker because it's offensive to them. I'll refuse to get that far, if somebody gets offended by seeing bacon signs or seeing military stickers, I'll tell them to go **** off and if they don't like it, no one told them to look at them.

Are you comparing me to a liberal? You lost all credit.

I guess bars should get rid of all their beer signs and alcohol advertisements too?

Ridiculous. If is have owned this restaurant I would have put up more bacon signs

(08-26-2014 10:50 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:36 AM)jh Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:20 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 10:12 AM)jh Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 07:55 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  So you want me to leave the country I fought for because I am expressing my first amendment right? hmmmm amazing how that works huh?

Yes, clearly that is what I am saying. Even though I actually said the opposite, what I really meant was that your idea about wanting people who exercise their rights under the First Amendment to criticize the speech of others to leave the country is a brilliant plan.

Do you have a better plan?

I already presented a better plan. One involving more speech, not suppressing speech.
And if you actually think your plan is a good idea, you should lead by example. Talk is cheap. It's like those rich liberals who advocate for higher taxes while taking advantage of every loophole imaginable and refusing to contribute extra money to the treasury. But before you do that, I sincerely hope you reconsider your plan. The First Amendment means nothing if it only applies to speech we agree with.

So you are criticizing me for my freedom of speech? Amazing how that works right? So we are just going to go around in circles.

No, I'm criticizing you for proposing the suppression of speech. I am not criticizing you for expressing yourself. I am criticizing the content of your communications. That's the way the First Amendment is supposed to work, with more speech countering bad speech. Rather than trying to suppress your speech, as you advocate, I am merely using my speech to point out what a ridiculous idea yours is. But I fully support the expression of asinine ideas. How could I post on this board otherwise?

There is a difference between the criticism of speech and the suppression of speech. A big difference.

Quote:Next thing you know, they are going to start complaining about my Marine Corps sticker because it's offensive to them. I'll refuse to get that far, if somebody gets offended by seeing bacon signs or seeing military stickers, I'll tell them to go **** off and if they don't like it, no one told them to look at them.

You are certainly within your rights to tell them to **** off. I find that civil discourse is typically more effective, but whatever floats your boat.

Quote:Are you comparing me to a liberal? You lost all credit.

This is just sad. Comparing your hypocrisy to that of a liberal does not mean that I think you are a liberal. Although, nowadays, liberals do seem to be the ones favoring restrictive speech codes. Hmmm. . .

The moment you call someone's expression offensive, you are seeking to deny them their Constitutional right to express it.

That (offensive speech) is essentially the definition of a LIMIT to 'free-speech'. By saying that the sign is offensive, she is claiming that the person with the sign is violating her rights... and essentially calling on 'the rule of law' to make her take it down. There used to be a principle called 'fighting words' that isn't really the law, but makes sense to people in the context.

What Marine is saying (as I hear it anyway) is that the Winooski woman was NOT properly exercising her freedom of speech, but trying to deny the rights of others. If that is what she wants, then she needs to go to another country that supports that.

There is a difference between stating a different opinion (i.e. that pigs are filthy animals and thus to eat bacon is to eat filth) and stating that the opinion that bacon is delicious is offensive and should be in some way, censored.

People should learn better how to express themselves without first seeking to quiet the opinions of others as this woman appears to have done. I'm not saying I'm better at it than anyone else, but I am at least aware of it and often try. I think that especially true when you seek to control what others, and not only yourself, do.

(08-26-2014 11:21 AM)jh Wrote:  There is a difference between the criticism of speech and the suppression of speech. A big difference.

Right...

and by claiming that someone else's speech is offensive (as the vegan woman did) you are seeking to suppress it.

She didn't say bacon was nasty (a difference of opinion/criticism on the topic), she said that the speech was offensive (a Constitutional violation that must be suppressed by law).

(08-26-2014 11:14 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  I guess bars should get rid of all their beer signs and alcohol advertisements too?

Ridiculous. If is have owned this restaurant I would have put up more bacon signs

Same here. I'd pump the smell of cooking bacon into the street...just for her.

I'd have just ignored her.

(08-26-2014 11:31 AM)Smaug Wrote:  I'd have just ignored her.

Occam's razor.

(08-26-2014 11:23 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The moment you call someone's expression offensive, you are seeking to deny them their Constitutional right to express it.

No. For example, many people consider the "N" word to be highly offensive without advocating its ban. And I'm pretty sure the reason the ACLU defends the KKK's right to organize parades is not because they do not consider the KKK's message offensive.

But this is besides the point. Speech that is merely offensive is fully protected by the First Amendment. Speech that is blasphemous is fully protected. Even speech actually advocating the denial of constitutional rights to others is fully protected by the First Amendment. That's why people are allowed to speak out against gay marriage and in favor of affirmative action.

Quote:That (offensive speech) is essentially the definition of a LIMIT to 'free-speech'. By saying that the sign is offensive, she is claiming that the person with the sign is violating her rights... and essentially calling on 'the rule of law' to make her take it down. There used to be a principle called 'fighting words' that isn't really the law, but makes sense to people in the context.

I have not seen anything to suggest that she claimed a violation of her rights, only her sensibilities. But again, this is besides the point.

And fighting words are still a part of the law, but have virtually no application in this case.

Quote:What Marine is saying (as I hear it anyway) is that the Winooski woman was NOT properly exercising her freedom of speech, but trying to deny the rights of others. If that is what she wants, then she needs to go to another country that supports that.

He is wrong. And he is doing exactly the same thing he is accusing her of.

Quote:There is a difference between stating a different opinion (i.e. that pigs are filthy animals and thus to eat bacon is to eat filth) and stating that the opinion that bacon is delicious is offensive and should be in some way, censored.

There is no difference between those two opinions that matters as far as the First Amendment is concerned. And again, I've seen nothing that suggests she advocated censorship of the sign.

Quote:People should learn better how to express themselves without first seeking to quiet the opinions of others as this woman appears to have done. I'm not saying I'm better at it than anyone else, but I am at least aware of it and often try. I think that especially true when you seek to control what others, and not only yourself, do.

What do you consider saying that people like her should leave the country, if not an attempt to quiet the opinions of others? If UTSAMarineVet09 had his way, our political conversation would be stilted indeed.

(08-26-2014 11:25 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 11:14 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  I guess bars should get rid of all their beer signs and alcohol advertisements too?

Ridiculous. If is have owned this restaurant I would have put up more bacon signs

Same here. I'd pump the smell of cooking bacon into the street...just for her.

I'd secretly taint her food with bacon/pork/swine so she ends up in muslim hell.

Yeah, I'm that evil.

I wanna follow her to a market and put a few packs of ham and bacon in her shopping cart.. She if she accepts the swine challenge.

(08-25-2014 08:18 PM)jh Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 08:15 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 08:08 PM)jh Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 08:05 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(08-25-2014 08:03 PM)jh Wrote:  What does that have to do with anything?

I can ask you the same question about your statement towards me

Did you not say that anyone upset about someone else exercising their First Amendment right should leave?

Yes I did.

And are you not upset about this woman's exercise of her First Amendment rights?

If the point UTSA made was a snake, you'd be a dead sumbitch as bad as you missed it.

(08-25-2014 08:32 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Hmmmmmmm, besides a sign with bacon on it what else might a Muslim ***** about? How about the Miss America contest, NFL cheerleaders, Catholics, policewomen, bars and liquor stores, Jimmy Dean's pork sausages, men being convicted of rape,...do I need to go on?

No, he'll miss that too.

mmmmm...bacon

(08-26-2014 12:47 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  mmmmm...bacon

Once cooked a big ol' turkey wrapped in bacon on a charcoal grill for Thanksgiving. It took forever but after many beers a many hours it sure was some good eatin'.

(08-26-2014 12:10 PM)jh Wrote:  But this is besides the point.

Besides the point?

(08-26-2014 12:51 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 12:10 PM)jh Wrote:  But this is besides the point.

Besides the point?

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/beside+the+point

(08-26-2014 12:49 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 12:47 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  mmmmm...bacon

Once cooked a big ol' turkey wrapped in bacon on a charcoal grill for Thanksgiving. It took forever but after many beers a many hours it sure was some good eatin'.

I will bet it was quite good indeed. I have yet to find anything that doesn't go well with bacon, but I will continue my search while combining as much as possible with bacon just to make sure.

(08-26-2014 12:58 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 12:49 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-26-2014 12:47 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  mmmmm...bacon

Once cooked a big ol' turkey wrapped in bacon on a charcoal grill for Thanksgiving. It took forever but after many beers a many hours it sure was some good eatin'.

I will bet it was quite good indeed. I have yet to find anything that doesn't go well with bacon, but I will continue my search while combining as much as possible with bacon just to make sure.

Well, this is just for you

https://gma.yahoo.com/pig-bacon-bar-comi...cipes.html

Me? I love Montreal, but don't like bacon.