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That second quote isn't from me EA3.

My comment was not a DD bash. I've been critical of him in previous threads. Not this one. There is a difference between local and regional content from a journalist. If Fleck didn't impose a lock down on practice, it's possible that we would have already heard about the wheel chair story. I don't know if DD was there for that portion or not. But I would expect that Elton give us a little more than a 10 minute research and stats quote on a preview....or at least hope he would do so.

(08-18-2014 01:04 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  That second quote isn't from me EA3.

You've got to be kidding if you think we are the same person with multiple ID's.

I figured you'd find a way to goose step around the tangled BS you laid down there a few posts ago. I should've expected that a multiple ID accusation was the golden ticket.

(08-18-2014 08:07 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  ob·jec·tive
əbˈjektiv/Submit
adjective
1. (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.


"...grand statements that really did not sit well with local fans as the defeats mounted."

"This was a solid MAC program prior to last season."

"A quick return to .500 or better will improve the mood greatly around Kalamazoo, Michigan."

And then we get a whopping two-sentence break-down on the offense, defense (which doesn't even mention our best defensive player), TVT our biggest loss (can I get a Jaime Wilson? Brian Fields? Really?), and then the "Player to Watch" is Corey Davis (genius! really went out on a limb there)

I'm sorry, but what exactly is "objective" about any of those statements cited in the article? This guy reads message boards, slaps them into an article, and calls it journalism. It says a lot about some of the people here that we eat this kind of garbage up and call it gospel. It's no wonder we don't expect more from our local newspaper.

I would say. Statement 1 is TRUE with the exception of 2 people that will remain unnamed. Statement 2 is TRUE, program has been a solid contender, unfortunately always the brides maid never the bride. Statement 3 is TRUE, although define quick return, because it isn't coming this year.

Actually, I don't think that ANY of those guys you mentioned are the biggest loss. TVT, was hurt half the season and really didn't play much last year. Jamie Wilson was hurt ALL season. How is that a great loss? Brian Fields, we haven't been able to run the ball in over 10 years, how is that a loss?
Coming off last year, Davis was about the ONLY player worth watching. My guess is if 14 freshman are going to play this year, he has no idea who else to watch.

(08-18-2014 08:17 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  This guy wrote up similar summaries for all of the other teams in the MAC. Same format, same # of words, everything. Why in the world should a writer in Cleveland spend any more time than necessary writing a summary about a 1-11 team?

Let's get over ourselves here and hope that next year he has to write "most surprising", "loaded with talent", and "dominant force" when talking about WMU Football.

EXACTLY!!!!!

My goodness the season cannot start soon enough. We have been relegated to a group of bickering b!tches that have nothing better to do but break down what a newspaper both locally and in another state should be writing about our program. The fact that we continue to go back to HAVING the exact same discussions is almost as silly as THE discussion itself.

I SO cannot wait to be able to either discuss how good we looked in victory or defeat vs Purdue or how inept we looked inept we looked again to start the season. At least once we start seeing some real action on the field we will have some basis to stand on. Rather than blind loyalty or blind disdain.

(08-18-2014 01:27 PM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I would say. Statement 1 is TRUE with the exception of 2 people that will remain unnamed. Statement 2 is TRUE, program has been a solid contender, unfortunately always the brides maid never the bride. Statement 3 is TRUE, although define quick return, because it isn't coming this year.

Actually, I don't think that ANY of those guys you mentioned are the biggest loss. TVT, was hurt half the season and really didn't play much last year. Jamie Wilson was hurt ALL season. How is that a great loss? Brian Fields, we haven't been able to run the ball in over 10 years, how is that a loss?
Coming off last year, Davis was about the ONLY player worth watching. My guess is if 14 freshman are going to play this year, he has no idea who else to watch.

And again... not saying I agree or disagree, but those are objective statements by definition. Where are the facts in those statements?

Ok, so TVT, Jaime Wilson, Brian Fields were not any of WMU's biggest losses. Then who is a bigger loss than any of those guys in your opinion?

I agree Corey Davis is worthy of "Players to Watch" but that's like saying Calvin Johnson is the Player to Watch on the Detroit Lions this year. At least go out on a limb and lend yourself a little bit of credibility. How about someone like a Richard Ash, Zach Terrell, Darius Phillips, Jarvion Franklin... someone with a little more depth and intrigue.

(08-18-2014 01:33 PM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  My goodness the season cannot start soon enough. We have been relegated to a group of bickering b!tches that have nothing better to do but break down what a newspaper both locally and in another state should be writing about our program. The fact that we continue to go back to HAVING the exact same discussions is almost as silly as THE discussion itself.

I SO cannot wait to be able to either discuss how good we looked in victory or defeat vs Purdue or how inept we looked inept we looked again to start the season. At least once we start seeing some real action on the field we will have some basis to stand on. Rather than blind loyalty or blind disdain.

(08-18-2014 01:36 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(08-18-2014 01:27 PM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I would say. Statement 1 is TRUE with the exception of 2 people that will remain unnamed. Statement 2 is TRUE, program has been a solid contender, unfortunately always the brides maid never the bride. Statement 3 is TRUE, although define quick return, because it isn't coming this year.

Actually, I don't think that ANY of those guys you mentioned are the biggest loss. TVT, was hurt half the season and really didn't play much last year. Jamie Wilson was hurt ALL season. How is that a great loss? Brian Fields, we haven't been able to run the ball in over 10 years, how is that a loss?
Coming off last year, Davis was about the ONLY player worth watching. My guess is if 14 freshman are going to play this year, he has no idea who else to watch.

And again... not saying I agree or disagree, but those are objective statements by definition. Where are the facts in those statements?

Ok, so TVT, Jaime Wilson, Brian Fields were not any of WMU's biggest losses. Then who is a bigger loss than any of those guys in your opinion?

I agree Corey Davis is worthy of "Players to Watch" but that's like saying Calvin Johnson is the Player to Watch on the Detroit Lions this year. At least go out on a limb and lend yourself a little bit of credibility. How about someone like a Richard Ash, Zach Terrell, Darius Phillips, Jarvion Franklin... someone with a little more depth and intrigue.

The facts in which statements? Statements 1, 2 and 3 are ALL accurate and true. If you don't think so, then you aren't watching the same program as the rest of us.

Like I said, my guess is that Corey Davis is probably the only guy this guy could name from last years team. I would guess that he is the only guy that 99% of another MAC teams fans could name from last year. And I doubt that he is going to predict any of the freshman without knowing if they would even see the field. After last years, debacle, it would really be hard to pick someone else to be your player to watch, especially if you are in Cleveland.

(08-18-2014 01:56 PM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  

(08-18-2014 01:36 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(08-18-2014 01:27 PM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I would say. Statement 1 is TRUE with the exception of 2 people that will remain unnamed. Statement 2 is TRUE, program has been a solid contender, unfortunately always the brides maid never the bride. Statement 3 is TRUE, although define quick return, because it isn't coming this year.

Actually, I don't think that ANY of those guys you mentioned are the biggest loss. TVT, was hurt half the season and really didn't play much last year. Jamie Wilson was hurt ALL season. How is that a great loss? Brian Fields, we haven't been able to run the ball in over 10 years, how is that a loss?
Coming off last year, Davis was about the ONLY player worth watching. My guess is if 14 freshman are going to play this year, he has no idea who else to watch.

And again... not saying I agree or disagree, but those are objective statements by definition. Where are the facts in those statements?

Ok, so TVT, Jaime Wilson, Brian Fields were not any of WMU's biggest losses. Then who is a bigger loss than any of those guys in your opinion?

I agree Corey Davis is worthy of "Players to Watch" but that's like saying Calvin Johnson is the Player to Watch on the Detroit Lions this year. At least go out on a limb and lend yourself a little bit of credibility. How about someone like a Richard Ash, Zach Terrell, Darius Phillips, Jarvion Franklin... someone with a little more depth and intrigue.

The facts in which statements? Statements 1, 2 and 3 are ALL accurate and true. If you don't think so, then you aren't watching the same program as the rest of us.

Like I said, my guess is that Corey Davis is probably the only guy this guy could name from last years team. I would guess that he is the only guy that 99% of another MAC teams fans could name from last year. And I doubt that he is going to predict any of the freshman without knowing if they would even see the field. After last years, debacle, it would really be hard to pick someone else to be your player to watch, especially if you are in Cleveland.

Clearly I am getting nowhere with you on what the definition of objective means. The fact that you said "if you don't think so" pretty much proves my point right there, but it's just not worth banging my head up against the wall with you on this.

Regarding your second paragraph... yes, that is exactly my beef with the guy naming Corey Davis as his "Player to Watch." The guy did absolutely no research and put minimal effort into the article. That's the whole point here.

Still waiting to hear who else besides TVT, Brian Fields, and Jaime Wilson might have been our biggest loss. I even left the door open for one name just for arguments sake. But even then, I'd still argue Wilson was the bigger loss.

OK, so I reread your posted definition of objective. I would say that our writer in this case has no dog in the fight and thus would be MUCH more objective than the rest of us.

Was he incorrect in saying that the fan base didn't take to PJ's antics in a 1-11 season?
Was he incorrect in saying that our program had been considered a solid contender for many years?
Was he incorrect in saying that a return to .500 would be a positive step?

Obviously, I am paraphrasing his comments rather that looking them up and retyping verbatim.

So, I will attempt to objectively answer those questions.
1. If you simply look at this board, you would see that, I would estimate, 80 - 90% of the comments last year regarding PJ were directed negatively. As the season progressed and the losses piled up, so did the negativity regarding the coach, his antics and the team performance. There is a thread on here that I believe has reached 87 pages entitled FIRE FLECK. It was started early in the season and added to with great frequency. Many in our community, Bronco fans or not, have expressed a negative opinion of Coach Fleck, simply due to his verbose comments and perceived attitude coupled with a 1-11 record in his first season. From the simply statements I have just typed, I would say that our writer has fairly and accurately depicted the feeling of the majority of Bronco fans after last season.

2. Over the last 20 or so years, that I have been blessed to be a Bronco fan. I would say that for the most part, we have been considered a contender in the MAC West. In the late 90's and early 2000's we in fact represented the West in the MAC Championship game. After a few years that saw a downturn in success under Gary Darnell, a change was made to Bill Cubit. During Bill Cubit tenure, our program was nearly always considered a contender to compete for the West title again. Unfortunately for Coach Cubit, during some of his most promising years with some of his most talented teams, he was forced to deal with the likes of Dan LeFevour at CMU and Nate Davis at Ball St, falling just short of winning the West Title. During Cubits era, the Broncos were granted 3 bowl appearances. WMU has sent several of its players to the NFL over the last 20 years. After the program seemed to begin a decline under Coach Cubit in his final season, it was decided that a change need to be made.

3. And finally, as is evidence from several threads earlier in the summer. Many Bronco fans realize coming off a 1-11 season that a return to respectability starts with getting back to .500. Will this satisfy all of the Bronco faithful? No. As has been pointed out on a number of occasions, going from a solid contending program as discussed in item 2, to 1-11 and then HOPING for .500 simply isn't good enough for some. However, looking at where the program has fallen to in recent years a return to .500 would give the fan base hope that the phoenix is rising from the ashes. And, that potentially, there is some substance to the coaches talk of becoming ELITE and once again filling Waldo Stadium with 40,000 adOARing fans.


I'm sorry, I don't see you how ANY of his statements were either incorrect or not objective. They are what they are and unfortunately we are where we are at.

As for the biggest loss from last season. Jamie Wilson never played last year. So maybe he should have been considered LAST YEARS biggest loss. And on a team that went 1-11, if what PJ started telling us all half way through last year that there just wasn't any talent on the team. Then maybe there really wasn't a big loss for last seasons team. I agree with you that its not TVT, because he also barely played last year and in fact that could be considered a positive going into this year as well if Terrell makes a huge jump because of the experience gained last season.

In regards to PLAYERS TO WATCH. As I said previously, the ONLY player to watch last year was Davis. And I have a silly suspicion that he is going to be the guy that we all want to watch again this year. If his performance as a freshman is any indication, he is going to be a must see performer as he continues to develop and mature. I would liken him to Greg Jennings (who didn't play as a freshman) or Jordan White or any of the great Bronco WRs of the last 15 years. Those were the guys that you came to watch. Even though we already knew they were good. That's why we had to watch them, because we knew they were going to be great and do something to amaze us.

C'mon, Waldo - you know writers are only "objective" and know what they're talking about when they write what fan boys want to read - "happy talk" as CD calls it.

We aren't going to see eye to eye on this one (we usually don't), but I do give you credit for always coming back with well thought out responses when you get challenged on stuff.

(08-19-2014 06:05 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  In regards to PLAYERS TO WATCH. As I said previously, the ONLY player to watch last year was Davis. And I have a silly suspicion that he is going to be the guy that we all want to watch again this year. If his performance as a freshman is any indication, he is going to be a must see performer as he continues to develop and mature. I would liken him to Greg Jennings (who didn't play as a freshman) or Jordan White or any of the great Bronco WRs of the last 15 years. Those were the guys that you came to watch. Even though we already knew they were good. That's why we had to watch them, because we knew they were going to be great and do something to amaze us.

I'm hoping for more than just Davis to watch on the field this year. Braverman looked great in last Saturday's scrimmage and he may well be an exciting player come game days. Terrill had a lot of poise and good accuracy on most of his throws. Had time in the pocket to find a target and even made a great scramble once when it collapsed. I did not have a roster with me so could not identify defensive players, but there were good plays made there also.

Bottom line, we should have more weapons this year than in 2013. As is usual for WMU, the talent is there. Lets hope they can be coached up come game day.

Really working on trying to be positive with the season fast approaching. After having attended the scrimmage Saturday I'm (finally) getting pumped for the season.

(08-19-2014 06:43 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  C'mon, Waldo - you know writers are only "objective" and know what they're talking about when they write what fan boys want to read - "happy talk" as CD calls it.

BAM!

Suck on that Fleckapologist deflectors of issues, projectors of emotions and masters of unaccountability.

There is talent, but it is FRESHMEN talent. It's why my expectations are in check. They are likely to get better as the season goes on. Much like Terrell did last year, we will likely see a few guys "get it" as the season progresses.

The development of guys like David Curle, Jamar Simpkins, and Keion Adams is going to be paramount. WMU has to get some push up front and be able to hold better against the run. Likewise, Willie Beavers, Taylor Moton, and Jackson Day have to get better push on the offensive side.

It's all about the lines and the QB. I think Terrell will be better, but if the defense can't get off the field by stopping the run and forcing third and longs, or the offense can't provide some running lanes to balance the offense, it's going to be another long season.

There are a whole lot of "ifs" with this team and staff. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. That said, the staff needs to prove themselves (more so than the players) and do it quick. Not necessarily wins, but good game day management and putting the kids in a position to be able to compete and succeed. Success begins at the top.

(08-19-2014 09:31 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 06:43 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  C'mon, Waldo - you know writers are only "objective" and know what they're talking about when they write what fan boys want to read - "happy talk" as CD calls it.

BAM!

Suck on that Fleckapologist deflectors of issues, projectors of emotions and masters of unaccountability.

Wow, can't keep up! Got the trifecta on that one.





/

God you're easy.