(07-11-2014 09:43 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:40 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:38 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:24 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Tom...trannies, yes I used that word, are a deviant subculture and are mentally deranged and are unnatural freaks. WV will not lose this law suit and are keeping anyone from voting.

Your response was not rooted in medicine, but in emotion.

My first response was to just add you to the list of Ignored people that I feel are incapable of contributing to any discussion.

But I'm feeling nice today, so I'll just ask you the following. So you used the words freaks, deranged, and deviant. Do you have any medical backup for those classifications?

And why do you care if someone wishes to present as a gender not matching their genetalia? How does it impact you? Transgendered persons aren't out to convert or rape kids. They simply believe that they are born with the wrong private parts. Medical science is clear that transgendered persons are not freaks or deranged and that transitioning and presenting as the gender deeply held is appropriate.

The lawsuit will be interesting. It raises interesting questions. My guess is that WV will quietly settle with the lady and give her the ID.

Lets be clear, they are preventing her from working, voting, etc., unless she violates her doctors orders. And the end result of the case is that the woman must either have an ID that doesn't look like her or no ID at all.

Wanna bet?

And bullshite, he is the only one preventing her from doing any of the above.

Yes, He (Mr. Dale) is preventing her from doing any of the above.

Bullshite again. Do as the VAST majority does and comply with the rules and regulations the state has mandated for photo ID's and this isn't even an issue. Or you can draw special attention to yourself...

(07-11-2014 09:42 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:29 AM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 08:11 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  In an interview with CNN, Steve Dale, acting commissioner of West Virginia's Department of Motor Vehicles, renounced any remarks that made individuals feel uncomfortable.

"I do not condone or approve any conduct which embarrassed an applicant or would single an applicant out," he said, adding the department is investigating the women's claims of verbal humiliation.

However, Dale emphasized he believes proper protocol was followed.

Under West Virginia law, Dale said, a photo that deviates from gender listed on the license falls under an "attempt to conceal or alter your identity or appearance."

"It would be the same as if you wanted to take a driver's license picture with a scarf over your face or if you we were wearing some type of garb that conceals your identity," he said. "And the decision is a subjective one that is handed down by the customer service representative, and then is subject to appeal by the manager and then it could come all the way up to me, the commissioner."

Dale recommends each woman receive a court-ordered statement that indicates they have transitioned genders.

I was half expecting to read this and be able to laugh it off as the WV DMV being bigoted. How wrong I was, this response seems entirely reasonable.

Going to the DMV is all about identity, it's like going for a medical when you're fat and you smoke, you know that it's gonna be uncomfortable and get a hard time for it. Any normal person would know that despite being a woman on the inside (let's just go with this) they are not just going to have it easy at a government office that is required to do check upon check for legal reasons. Expecting the officials to just roll over because you're different is very selfish of them. The DMV should make exceptions to the rules because the trans people don't like who they are?

The issue is that gender is more than a ***** or a ******.

But if the DMV is making it hard on someone, simply because they are transgendered, then that is probably a good reason why the lady has a case. Its not the role of the government to make judgements.

That's the point, the DMV is not doing it simply because they're transgendered, they're doing it because they are the rules and there is a process that can be followed to correct it. The rules don't seem that crazy to me. Most of the time LGBT rights is all about treating people the same, here they want to be treated differently, they think they are above the law because they are transgendered. Should the rules be changed? Perhaps and perhaps not, but I think the DMV is acting not out of transphobia but on what they think makes the most sense for the purpose of a driving license. I think I'm inclined to agree with them.

(07-11-2014 10:44 AM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:42 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:29 AM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 08:11 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  In an interview with CNN, Steve Dale, acting commissioner of West Virginia's Department of Motor Vehicles, renounced any remarks that made individuals feel uncomfortable.

"I do not condone or approve any conduct which embarrassed an applicant or would single an applicant out," he said, adding the department is investigating the women's claims of verbal humiliation.

However, Dale emphasized he believes proper protocol was followed.

Under West Virginia law, Dale said, a photo that deviates from gender listed on the license falls under an "attempt to conceal or alter your identity or appearance."

"It would be the same as if you wanted to take a driver's license picture with a scarf over your face or if you we were wearing some type of garb that conceals your identity," he said. "And the decision is a subjective one that is handed down by the customer service representative, and then is subject to appeal by the manager and then it could come all the way up to me, the commissioner."

Dale recommends each woman receive a court-ordered statement that indicates they have transitioned genders.

I was half expecting to read this and be able to laugh it off as the WV DMV being bigoted. How wrong I was, this response seems entirely reasonable.

Going to the DMV is all about identity, it's like going for a medical when you're fat and you smoke, you know that it's gonna be uncomfortable and get a hard time for it. Any normal person would know that despite being a woman on the inside (let's just go with this) they are not just going to have it easy at a government office that is required to do check upon check for legal reasons. Expecting the officials to just roll over because you're different is very selfish of them. The DMV should make exceptions to the rules because the trans people don't like who they are?

The issue is that gender is more than a ***** or a ******.

But if the DMV is making it hard on someone, simply because they are transgendered, then that is probably a good reason why the lady has a case. Its not the role of the government to make judgements.

That's the point, the DMV is not doing it simply because they're transgendered, they're doing it because they are the rules and there is a process that can be followed to correct it. The rules don't seem that crazy to me. Most of the time LGBT rights is all about treating people the same, here they want to be treated differently, they think they are above the law because they are transgendered. Should the rules be changed? Perhaps and perhaps not, but I think the DMV is acting not out of transphobia but on what they think makes the most sense for the purpose of a driving license. I think I'm inclined to agree with them.

The DMV is preventing the transgendered person from following doctors orders and having a job/voting at the same time. A transgendered person must present as the sex for two years prior to surgery at all times. During that time, their ID should match how they present.

And if they don't have 75,000 bucks for the surgery? I guess its no driving, no employment, and no voting for you then. Its a pretty hefty poll tax if you ask me. And how can someone save for surgery if the state makes it impossible for them to be employed, drive a car, take an airplane, etc.

An ID should match how one looks. The entire purpose of having a photo on the ID is rendered moot by demanding that someone not look like their photo in the ID.

(07-11-2014 10:31 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:43 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:40 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:38 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:24 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Tom...trannies, yes I used that word, are a deviant subculture and are mentally deranged and are unnatural freaks. WV will not lose this law suit and are keeping anyone from voting.

Your response was not rooted in medicine, but in emotion.

My first response was to just add you to the list of Ignored people that I feel are incapable of contributing to any discussion.

But I'm feeling nice today, so I'll just ask you the following. So you used the words freaks, deranged, and deviant. Do you have any medical backup for those classifications?

And why do you care if someone wishes to present as a gender not matching their genetalia? How does it impact you? Transgendered persons aren't out to convert or rape kids. They simply believe that they are born with the wrong private parts. Medical science is clear that transgendered persons are not freaks or deranged and that transitioning and presenting as the gender deeply held is appropriate.

The lawsuit will be interesting. It raises interesting questions. My guess is that WV will quietly settle with the lady and give her the ID.

Lets be clear, they are preventing her from working, voting, etc., unless she violates her doctors orders. And the end result of the case is that the woman must either have an ID that doesn't look like her or no ID at all.

Wanna bet?

And bullshite, he is the only one preventing her from doing any of the above.

Yes, He (Mr. Dale) is preventing her from doing any of the above.

Bullshite again. Do as the VAST majority does and comply with the rules and regulations the state has mandated for photo ID's and this isn't even an issue. Or you can draw special attention to yourself...

Actually the entire point of much of the transgendered community's complaints involve their desire to not draw special attention to themselves. They'd like to use the bathroom that matches the gender they're presenting (as to not be presenting as a man in the lady's room, for example). They'd like to not have to explain their situation to TSA agents, police officers, and anyone else who needs to see an ID card.

Its not the DMV's call to try and punish people who are transgendered.

Transgendered is not the same as 'Drag Queen'.

(07-11-2014 09:20 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:16 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

DMV rules are clear and consistent on this issue, WV will not lose any suit over this. And the crux of the matter is in your own last sentence; the state will not issue a photo ID to someone who is made up enough to significantly alter their natural appearance. Are you really this stupid?

The case does not involve the question of whether WV is following its policy. Its a challenge to the policy.

Lets see how the case progresses. My guess is that she will have her ID in short order with the pic that shows how she presents.

How have they made it through the DMV for so many years then?

(07-11-2014 09:26 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think the general rule should be that how you look in daily life is how the DL photo should present you.

So what happens when the transgendered male decides not to put his female attire on and gets turned down to vote or go inside a bar/club or buy alcohol or cigarettes after vehemently exclaiming that the female in the photo ID is really him?

(07-11-2014 11:09 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:26 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think the general rule should be that how you look in daily life is how the DL photo should present you.

So what happens when the transgendered male decides not to put his female attire on and gets turned down to vote or go inside a bar/club or buy alcohol or cigarettes after vehemently exclaiming that the female in the photo ID is really him?

He doesn't get in. Consequences of his decision.

(07-11-2014 11:03 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:20 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:16 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

DMV rules are clear and consistent on this issue, WV will not lose any suit over this. And the crux of the matter is in your own last sentence; the state will not issue a photo ID to someone who is made up enough to significantly alter their natural appearance. Are you really this stupid?

The case does not involve the question of whether WV is following its policy. Its a challenge to the policy.

Lets see how the case progresses. My guess is that she will have her ID in short order with the pic that shows how she presents.

How have they made it through the DMV for so many years then?

And that is the best question asked so far. The answer is that these two are plants. They knew what the result would be and went to DMV expecting it. Then they ran to the media to cry.

The silliness that we endure today is just off the charts.

Your ID is all about a representative likeness of your legal self. The trannies will and should lose.

(07-11-2014 11:22 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Your ID is all about a representative likeness of your legal self. The trannies will and should lose.

You mean to tell me that the state has an interest in knowing what you look like without major temporary changes to your appearance? Say it aint so!

(07-11-2014 11:28 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 11:22 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Your ID is all about a representative likeness of your legal self. The trannies will and should lose.

You mean to tell me that the state has an interest in knowing what you look like without major temporary changes to your appearance? Say it aint so!

Crazy huh? Some may even call that interest, compelling!

(07-11-2014 11:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 11:09 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:26 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think the general rule should be that how you look in daily life is how the DL photo should present you.

So what happens when the transgendered male decides not to put his female attire on and gets turned down to vote or go inside a bar/club or buy alcohol or cigarettes after vehemently exclaiming that the female in the photo ID is really him?

He doesn't get in. Consequences of his decision.

And what about the consequences of his decision to pose as a female?

If they let it go anyone could put on a mask and have their
picture taken. Nixon mask, or Godzilla mask, etc.
What good would a picture do then.

(07-11-2014 11:58 AM)GoApps70 Wrote:  If they let it go anyone could put on a mask and have their
picture taken. Nixon mask, or Godzilla mask, etc.
What good would a picture do then.

None. These people chose to make these altered decisions, they need to stop crying and move on with reality.

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

So can we then require her to wear makeup at all times?

Why doesn't it look like her just because she isn't wearing makeup?

I get your point and it is an interesting one, but how would you feel about people wearing wigs and false facial hair and colored contacts to have their passports done? What if they showed up in heavy or even clown makeup? That may well be how they frequently dress. It is pretty common as I understand it for people who have those massive hoops in their ears, lips and even cheeks to take them out for ID... even if that is how they dress 24/7

I don't see that asking someone who regularly wears makeup to tone it down so that their actual features are more identifiable should be a problem. Is it touchy? Yes... but its purpose isn't to keep them from dressing as they choose, but to identify them better regardless of HOW they dress.

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And 'trannies' is kind of like using the N word. If you're looking to be credible, you might wish to use the term transgender or transitioning.

Tom, we tend to shorten names. Examples:

San Francisco 49ers = 9ers
Redskins = 'Skins
British = Brits
California = Cali
Washington DC = DC
Chicago = Chi Town
Las Vegas = Vegas
Los Angeles International Airport = LAX


The list is endless.

(07-11-2014 11:22 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Your ID is all about a representative likeness of your legal self. The trannies will and should lose.

Youre forgetting the medical issue here. In order to transition, a person must present as that gender for two full years at all times.

If the transgender person is under the guidance of a medical doctor then it changes the situation.

-----

If the point of an ID is not to look like one presents, then I suppose we can dispense with it being used for ID for voting.

(07-11-2014 12:27 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And 'trannies' is kind of like using the N word. If you're looking to be credible, you might wish to use the term transgender or transitioning.

Tom, we tend to shorten names. Examples:

San Francisco 49ers = 9ers
Redskins = 'Skins
British = Brits
California = Cali
Washington DC = DC
Chicago = Chi Town
Las Vegas = Vegas
Los Angeles International Airport = LAX


The list is endless.

Yea but the short form is Trans. Tranny is a perjorative, used only to demean or insult someone.

(07-11-2014 12:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

So can we then require her to wear makeup at all times?

Why doesn't it look like her just because she isn't wearing makeup?

I get your point and it is an interesting one, but how would you feel about people wearing wigs and false facial hair and colored contacts to have their passports done? What if they showed up in heavy or even clown makeup? That may well be how they frequently dress. It is pretty common as I understand it for people who have those massive hoops in their ears, lips and even cheeks to take them out for ID... even if that is how they dress 24/7

I don't see that asking someone who regularly wears makeup to tone it down so that their actual features are more identifiable should be a problem. Is it touchy? Yes... but its purpose isn't to keep them from dressing as they choose, but to identify them better regardless of HOW they dress.

The problem is that if they don't look anywhere near how they present in the photo, then the ID is useless.

The only way this works is if NO ONE is allowed to wear makeup in their photo. Or hair extensions. And that it is enforced equally. And that will never happen. Look, this appears to be simply the result of people wanting to harm, hurt, single out, and demean Transgendered persons.

The Religious folks have been on a witch hunt for a while now. They want to make trans persons unable to be employed, vote, drive a car, or even have access to a bathroom while engaging in public commerce. Or they will force humiliations (and yes, making a transgendered person revert to a hated and psychologically damaging presentation is humiliating). But that's the point of the DMV. Their goal is to humiliate the transgendered person.

(07-11-2014 11:58 AM)GoApps70 Wrote:  If they let it go anyone could put on a mask and have their
picture taken. Nixon mask, or Godzilla mask, etc.
What good would a picture do then.

Sure, if a medical doctor licensed by the state says that there is some medically necessary reason for doing so, then sure.

The problem is that WV is demanding that transgendered persons violate medically necessary guidance. All for the purpose of subjecting that person to humiliation.