(03-06-2014 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 04:44 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 04:33 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Obama can't really be held accountable for this

Not solely accountable, no. Not even primarily accountable.

But five years of Obama's "leadership" cannot help but entice the Putins of the world to believe that they have a green light to do whatever the hell they want.

Putin has been doing this since before Obama took office. He took Georgia with no problem and no one stopped him them. Why didn't that event embolden him?

1. I think it did embolden him.
2. "South Ossetia" =/= Georgia.

(03-06-2014 11:50 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 11:41 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Obama has nothing to do with this. I find it amazingly transparent that anyone would try to hang this on him.

Obama is exactly the reason why this is happening. I thought his talking diplomacy would stop Iran's nuclear program and now stop Putin.

Wait, is Obama the reason it's happening? Or is he just failing to stop it?

(03-06-2014 05:48 PM)Hitch Wrote:  Wait, is Obama the reason it's happening? Or is he just failing to stop it?

The options given are not mutually exclusive

(03-06-2014 01:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  So a mere vote of the people to change countries is all that is needed?

What if Texas voted to become Mexican?

Florida to Cuba?

Hawaii to Japan?

Alaska to the North Pole?

Self-determination of peoples is enshrined in the UN Charter. If a region wants to belong to a certain country, why not let them? The Falklands belong to the UK and not to Argentina under the same principle. Why would you want to force a people to be subjects of a country they don't want to be part of?

Secession is natural and is a common part of history. America seceded from Britain, the South seceded from the Union (though it was put down by military force), former soviet republics left Russia, etc. It happens all the time. I support the right of the regions of Ukraine, and all people for that matter, to make up their own minds about who they want to govern them.

(03-06-2014 01:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  a mere vote of the people

There's a phrase worth remembering.

(03-06-2014 01:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  So a mere vote of the people to change countries is all that is needed?

What if Texas voted to become Mexican?

I noticed you used Texas instead of California. Probably because they'd actually pass a vote to become a part of Mexico and the other 49 states would be glad to see it go. You need to get out of there.

(03-06-2014 07:43 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 01:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  So a mere vote of the people to change countries is all that is needed?

What if Texas voted to become Mexican?

I noticed you used Texas instead of California. Probably because they'd actually pass a vote to become a part of Mexico and the other 49 states would be glad to see it go. You need to get out of there.

You either believe in self-determination or you don't. If the people of California voted to be represented by a different government...well...isn't that self- determination?

Crimea should have that choice. But only after the Russian troops have skedaddled back across the border and the vote can be free.

(03-06-2014 08:24 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 07:43 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 01:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  So a mere vote of the people to change countries is all that is needed?

What if Texas voted to become Mexican?

I noticed you used Texas instead of California. Probably because they'd actually pass a vote to become a part of Mexico and the other 49 states would be glad to see it go. You need to get out of there.

You either believe in self-determination or you don't. If the people of California voted to be represented by a different government...well...isn't that self- determination?

Crimea should have that choice. But only after the Russian troops have skedaddled back across the border and the vote can be free.

You mean like American labour union votes? Never mind...

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(03-06-2014 05:55 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 05:48 PM)Hitch Wrote:  Wait, is Obama the reason it's happening? Or is he just failing to stop it?

The options given are not mutually exclusive

The latter is much easier to argue than the former. So with that in mind, how are Putin's actions caused by Obama? There are plenty of things to pin on the President, but I don't think this is one of them.

Disagree with how he's responding to it? Sure. Do I think he caused it? No.

(03-06-2014 12:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  3) Ukrainian signing a bilateral military agreement with Ukraine for a naval base in Odessa and an airforce base in Eastern Ukraine. This would cause Russia to throw a severe fit. Not NATO. Just the US. Again, this would allow the US to act without Germany.

Wait, what? Bi-lateral or uni-lateral?

(03-06-2014 01:09 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 01:01 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  What if Texas voted to become Mexican?

A vote and 10-20,000 Russian troops.

No thanks.

(03-06-2014 07:26 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Self-determination of peoples is enshrined in the UN Charter. If a region wants to belong to a certain country, why not let them? The Falklands belong to the UK and not to Argentina under the same principle. Why would you want to force a people to be subjects of a country they don't want to be part of?

If I'm correct, Scotland just took one such vote.

(03-06-2014 07:26 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Secession is natural and is a common part of history. America seceded from Britain, the South seceded from the Union (though it was put down by military force), former soviet republics left Russia, etc. It happens all the time. I support the right of the regions of Ukraine, and all people for that matter, to make up their own minds about who they want to govern them.

So is Russian territorial expansion.

(03-06-2014 10:07 PM)Hitch Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 05:55 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 05:48 PM)Hitch Wrote:  Wait, is Obama the reason it's happening? Or is he just failing to stop it?

The options given are not mutually exclusive

The latter is much easier to argue than the former.

Not disputed.

Quote:So with that in mind, how are Putin's actions caused by Obama? There are plenty of things to pin on the President, but I don't think this is one of them.

Disagree with how he's responding to it? Sure. Do I think he caused it? No.

I don't think he "caused it", either. I think by his weakness/impotence (obvious to all but his most sycophantic admirers), he inadvertently (and perhaps unconsciously) makes such actions more likely to occur.

Vandiver49 and I already had this conversation:

(03-06-2014 04:44 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 04:33 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Obama can't really be held accountable for this

Not solely accountable, no. Not even primarily accountable.

But five years of Obama's "leadership" cannot help but entice the Putins of the world to believe that they have a green light to do whatever the hell they want.

We all knew this was coming, but anyway the "Use Diplomacy not Sanctions" headlines are now up: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine...ons-n45696

There is a significant minority Muslim population in the Crimea. Hey Vlad, think Chechnya-West.

(03-07-2014 03:15 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  We all knew this was coming, but anyway the "Use Diplomacy not Sanctions" headlines are now up: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine...ons-n45696

Funny how obvious it is that Goldman Sacs, Citibank, Lloyds of London, et al have wrested full control of the Western world.

(03-06-2014 11:41 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Obama has nothing to do with this. I find it amazingly transparent that anyone would try to hang this on him.

Me, too. Everyone knows this is clearly Bush's fault.

(03-06-2014 07:26 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Secession is natural and is a common part of history. America seceded from Britain, the South seceded from the Union (though it was put down by military force), former soviet republics left Russia, etc. It happens all the time. I support the right of the regions of Ukraine, and all people for that matter, to make up their own minds about who they want to govern them.

Jugnaut, the problem is.. the "temporary" govt that voted on this.. REFUSED to let two Ukranian parliamentarians(Is that what they are?) in to their govt building to argue/vote "NO" on rejoining Russia.

So it's not exactly a "fair vote" right now.

(03-07-2014 10:02 AM)G-Man Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 11:41 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Obama has nothing to do with this. I find it amazingly transparent that anyone would try to hang this on him.

Me, too. Everyone knows this is clearly Bush's fault.

NO it's Putin's fault. That no one would think of blaming Putin is ludicrous.

(03-07-2014 11:03 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-07-2014 10:02 AM)G-Man Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 11:41 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Obama has nothing to do with this. I find it amazingly transparent that anyone would try to hang this on him.

Me, too. Everyone knows this is clearly Bush's fault.

NO it's Putin's fault. That no one would think of blaming Putin is ludicrous.

Blame MSNBC and Obama for always blaming Bush. We just say it to beat you guys to the punch now.

(03-07-2014 11:00 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 07:26 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Secession is natural and is a common part of history. America seceded from Britain, the South seceded from the Union (though it was put down by military force), former soviet republics left Russia, etc. It happens all the time. I support the right of the regions of Ukraine, and all people for that matter, to make up their own minds about who they want to govern them.

Jugnaut, the problem is.. the "temporary" govt that voted on this.. REFUSED to let two Ukranian parliamentarians(Is that what they are?) in to their govt building to argue/vote "NO" on rejoining Russia.

So it's not exactly a "fair vote" right now.

In all fairness though. It was unanimous, so I don't think two votes would have made a difference. As to the argument, the Crimea had been a part of Russia for a long time and the large majority of people in this region are Russian.

Russia has basically taken over the area without firing a shot, except for a warning shot. They don't have troops in cities and everyone seems to not care that they are there. I think this vote says more about the ethnic division between Crimea (and eastern Ukraine though they didn't vote) and the western Ukraine.

(03-07-2014 08:56 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-07-2014 03:15 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  We all knew this was coming, but anyway the "Use Diplomacy not Sanctions" headlines are now up: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine...ons-n45696

Funny how obvious it is that Goldman Sacs, Citibank, Lloyds of London, et al have wrested full control of the Western world.

While not surprising, at this point all money consists of is lines of code in computer terminals. What these banks are protecting is the good faith and trust in the banking system, such as it is. really no different than churches at this point.