(12-05-2013 07:18 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  There is that stupid "defenses are fast now" argument. Every time I hear that I cringe. Speed has nothing to do with stopping the triple option.

I agree with that to a point. We just gashed one of the fastest defenses in the country. They were cocky about how fast they were I think and we used it to run them out of the play. We ran a ton of counter plays in this game and it caught UF offguard because we used their pursuit to the motion against them, to a very devestating effect.

But there's no doubt that defenders are more athletic these days. They are also better at lateral pursuit which is where the speed conversation comes into play. We have thrived over making teams run sideline to sideline in the past because the defenses were used to ground and pound/run up the middle offenses with the occasional play-action pass. The Youngstown State game is a perfect example of this. I wouldn't necessarily say their guys were running in molasses, but they were not able to match our lateral quickness and athleticism at all. They stood there and got cut out of the play or we just ran around them.

It's a lot harder to do that these days when defenses are designed to counter an offense's speed advantage. Along with that it's much harder to cut block. It showed in GT's games against Clemson and VT this year. Those guys were just so athletic they were shucking off blocks like it was nothing. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the offense, it just means you have to attack those defenses differently. Go back to the 80s Georgia Southern offenses and the 87-92 Hawaii teams with PJ at OC and see how you can flip this offense around and go full Run and Shoot with a lot of option mixed in. A lot of the formations we used against UF were Run and Shoot base formations, and we were involving A-backs as slot receiver threats all game.

We just have to be more willing to involve passing in our offense, and not be so stubborn to think we can win games without passing. Make no joke about it, we didn't pass against UF because we couldn't, not because we didn't have to. If we didn't have to we wouldn't have tried it at all. Ellison's throwing shoulder had been injured a few games earlier, so his passes were nowhere near as good as they had been earlier in the season. We're lucky that we we didn't throw a pick, because their pass defense is really good. I have a feeling moving forward though, that we're going to need to increase our number of pass plays and make sure that a majority of them are completions. This means we're going to need a short/intermediate passing game. You average 120ish passing yards/game with a ~60% completion and you'll be able to run all over people because no one will be loading the line anymore.

(12-05-2013 07:54 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 07:18 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  There is that stupid "defenses are fast now" argument. Every time I hear that I cringe. Speed has nothing to do with stopping the triple option.

I agree with that to a point. We just gashed one of the fastest defenses in the country. They were cocky about how fast they were I think and we used it to run them out of the play. We ran a ton of counter plays in this game and it caught UF offguard because we used their pursuit to the motion against them, to a very devestating effect.

But there's no doubt that defenders are more athletic these days. They are also better at lateral pursuit which is where the speed conversation comes into play. We have thrived over making teams run sideline to sideline in the past because the defenses were used to ground and pound/run up the middle offenses with the occasional play-action pass. The Youngstown State game is a perfect example of this. I wouldn't necessarily say their guys were running in molasses, but they were not able to match our lateral quickness and athleticism at all. They stood there and got cut out of the play or we just ran around them.

It's a lot harder to do that these days when defenses are designed to counter an offense's speed advantage. Along with that it's much harder to cut block. It showed in GT's games against Clemson and VT this year. Those guys were just so athletic they were shucking off blocks like it was nothing. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the offense, it just means you have to attack those defenses differently. Go back to the 80s Georgia Southern offenses and the 87-92 Hawaii teams with PJ at OC and see how you can flip this offense around and go full Run and Shoot with a lot of option mixed in. A lot of the formations we used against UF were Run and Shoot base formations, and we were involving A-backs as slot receiver threats all game.

We just have to be more willing to involve passing in our offense, and not be so stubborn to think we can win games without passing.Make no joke about it, we didn't pass against UF because we couldn't, not because we didn't have to. If we didn't have to we wouldn't have tried it at all. Ellison's throwing shoulder had been injured a few games earlier, so his passes were nowhere near as good as they had been earlier in the season. We're lucky that we we didn't throw a pick, because their pass defense is really good. I have a feeling moving forward though, that we're going to need to increase our number of pass plays and make sure that a majority of them are completions. This means we're going to need a short/intermediate passing game. You average 120ish passing yards/game with a ~60% completion and you'll be able to run all over people because no one will be loading the line anymore.

I agreed with most of your post. Except that part. If we had been behind in the chains a lot, we would have HAD to throw. The fact is that we didn't HAVE to. We didn't want to! Not with a Freshman QB against that D, and with him battling a nagging shoulder. But, we COULD have thrown the ball. It is always scary to me when we do. But I agree that when we do, we have to complete them in most games. Increase the attempts? Well, Yea more than 3 might be necessary at times :) . But, UF did a great job batting that one slant down - if he doesn't get a hand on that ball - It would have been a huge play for our passing game. Of course he would have had to catch it! But the angle for the throw from the DB's coverage gave us a great target. I wouldn't say that we couldn't throw, we only threw the ball to make them stay honest and to try and get a quick hitter. I wouldn't throw the ball much unless I had to, and we just didn't have to. The defenses in this league who are going to think that we can't pass are going to get surprised, especially when we have a QB with more experience and is healthy.

(12-05-2013 08:30 AM)The4thOption Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 07:54 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 07:18 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  There is that stupid "defenses are fast now" argument. Every time I hear that I cringe. Speed has nothing to do with stopping the triple option.

I agree with that to a point. We just gashed one of the fastest defenses in the country. They were cocky about how fast they were I think and we used it to run them out of the play. We ran a ton of counter plays in this game and it caught UF offguard because we used their pursuit to the motion against them, to a very devestating effect.

But there's no doubt that defenders are more athletic these days. They are also better at lateral pursuit which is where the speed conversation comes into play. We have thrived over making teams run sideline to sideline in the past because the defenses were used to ground and pound/run up the middle offenses with the occasional play-action pass. The Youngstown State game is a perfect example of this. I wouldn't necessarily say their guys were running in molasses, but they were not able to match our lateral quickness and athleticism at all. They stood there and got cut out of the play or we just ran around them.

It's a lot harder to do that these days when defenses are designed to counter an offense's speed advantage. Along with that it's much harder to cut block. It showed in GT's games against Clemson and VT this year. Those guys were just so athletic they were shucking off blocks like it was nothing. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the offense, it just means you have to attack those defenses differently. Go back to the 80s Georgia Southern offenses and the 87-92 Hawaii teams with PJ at OC and see how you can flip this offense around and go full Run and Shoot with a lot of option mixed in. A lot of the formations we used against UF were Run and Shoot base formations, and we were involving A-backs as slot receiver threats all game.

We just have to be more willing to involve passing in our offense, and not be so stubborn to think we can win games without passing.Make no joke about it, we didn't pass against UF because we couldn't, not because we didn't have to. If we didn't have to we wouldn't have tried it at all. Ellison's throwing shoulder had been injured a few games earlier, so his passes were nowhere near as good as they had been earlier in the season. We're lucky that we we didn't throw a pick, because their pass defense is really good. I have a feeling moving forward though, that we're going to need to increase our number of pass plays and make sure that a majority of them are completions. This means we're going to need a short/intermediate passing game. You average 120ish passing yards/game with a ~60% completion and you'll be able to run all over people because no one will be loading the line anymore.

I agreed with most of your post. Except that part. If we had been behind in the chains a lot, we would have HAD to throw. The fact is that we didn't HAVE to. We didn't want to! Not with a Freshman QB against that D, and with him battling a nagging shoulder. But, we COULD have thrown the ball. It is always scary to me when we do. But I agree that when we do, we have to complete them in most games. Increase the attempts? Well, Yea more than 3 might be necessary at times :) . But, UF did a great job batting that one slant down - if he doesn't get a hand on that ball - It would have been a huge play for our passing game. Of course he would have had to catch it! But the angle for the throw from the DB's coverage gave us a great target. I wouldn't say that we couldn't throw, we only threw the ball to make them stay honest and to try and get a quick hitter. I wouldn't throw the ball much unless I had to, and we just didn't have to. The defenses in this league who are going to think that we can't pass are going to get surprised, especially when we have a QB with more experience and is healthy.

Well I should have rephrased I guess. I look at it as we couldn't throw because we didn't have a realiable passing game and we had an injured QB. We tested the waters trying to keep them offbalance, but not because we knew we could pass on them. They were gambles. I don't think we had any confidence in our ability to pass effectively. I agree we stayed on schedule the majority of the game. The only real situation I can remember getting off schedule is on the first drive after the delay of game penalty.

Even still, we were more efficient on passing downs than UF was without completing a pass. We honestly destroyed their defense. Look at Bill Connely's S&P+ or the F/+ statistics for our game. This game shouldn't have been close, we should have walked away with it.

Watched the Gator game with a former Georgia Southern OL. He played against Florida back in the day. I asked him what the difference was between playing Florida and Southern Conference schools. His comment was it wasn't so much that they were bigger and stronger, it was more about the speed. One of our plays that would go for 30, 40, 50+ yards against Southern Conference teams would go for say 15 against SEC defenses. That being the case, it's not that the TO can't be successful we probably just can't expect as many big plays as the years go on and teams that play us every year start figuring out how to limit those.

(12-05-2013 08:57 AM)Tennessee_Eagle Wrote:  Watched the Gator game with a former Georgia Southern OL. He played against Florida back in the day. I asked him what the difference was between playing Florida and Southern Conference schools. His comment was it wasn't so much that they were bigger and stronger, it was more about the speed. One of our plays that would go for 30, 40, 50+ yards against Southern Conference teams would go for say 15 against SEC defenses. That being the case, it's not that the TO can't be successful we probably just can't expect as many big plays as the years go on and teams that play us every year start figuring out how to limit those.

Good thing for us however, that we wont be playing SEC defenses every week. They will be better talent wise than most SoCon defenses though I grant you the point. But as far as them figuring out how to limit us, I wouldn't say that the 5 teams that will see it only once a year are going to be as knowledgeable about that as SoCon defenses who might face a version of it 3 or 4 times a season. App being the one exception here, but while their coaches might retain the knowledge if the staff remains in tact, the experience on the field in defending it will fade as new players only prepare for it once a year. And if "talent" truly is negated by the option then Belt defenses might not have any more success than SoCon defenses. GRANTED - we lost 4 SoCon games this year so who knows what will happen. The rest of the Belt is only going to see us once every other year at the most and many of them only once every 2 years or so - outside of a potential Championship game of course.

Navy has always put up a lot of points against sun belt teams. Navy also put up lots of points against ECU a few times recently including 76 in one game.

Our offense will do well. The only question is how our defense can hold up with the lack of depth. I don't think talent is an issue as we have two players from last year starting in the NFL as rookies and two more going to the senior bowl this year that will be drafted.

(12-05-2013 10:17 AM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  Navy has always put up a lot of points against sun belt teams. Navy also put up lots of points against ECU a few times recently including 76 in one game.

Our offense will do well. The only question is how our defense can hold up with the lack of depth. I don't think talent is an issue as we have two players from last year starting in the NFL as rookies and two more going to the senior bowl this year that will be drafted.

Agreed, recruiting on the defensive side of the ball is going to be so huge going forward. We haven't normally had that many guys grouped so close together going on to the NFL on defense as we have the last few years. Replacing them is a big concern. I hoping that win at UF is going to help us out a bunch with recruiting all around, but especially on defense.

(12-05-2013 10:17 AM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  Navy has always put up a lot of points against sun belt teams. Navy also put up lots of points against ECU a few times recently including 76 in one game.

Our offense will do well. The only question is how our defense can hold up with the lack of depth. I don't think talent is an issue as we have two players from last year starting in the NFL as rookies and two more going to the senior bowl this year that will be drafted.

FWIW I was curious so I did the math...

Vs current SBC and CUSA teams Navy is 20-10 (.667) averaging 34ppg.
Only being held under 20 points in 5/30 games. Not bad.

(12-05-2013 01:57 PM)TrueBlueAlum Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 10:17 AM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  Navy has always put up a lot of points against sun belt teams. Navy also put up lots of points against ECU a few times recently including 76 in one game.

Our offense will do well. The only question is how our defense can hold up with the lack of depth. I don't think talent is an issue as we have two players from last year starting in the NFL as rookies and two more going to the senior bowl this year that will be drafted.

FWIW I was curious so I did the math...

Vs current SBC and CUSA teams Navy is 20-10 (.667) averaging 34ppg.
Only being held under 20 points in 5/30 games. Not bad.

Option will never work in the SBC.

(12-05-2013 01:57 PM)TrueBlueAlum Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 10:17 AM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  Navy has always put up a lot of points against sun belt teams. Navy also put up lots of points against ECU a few times recently including 76 in one game.

Our offense will do well. The only question is how our defense can hold up with the lack of depth. I don't think talent is an issue as we have two players from last year starting in the NFL as rookies and two more going to the senior bowl this year that will be drafted.

FWIW I was curious so I did the math...

Vs current SBC and CUSA teams Navy is 20-10 (.667) averaging 34ppg.
Only being held under 20 points in 5/30 games. Not bad.

Don't you go bringing logic to this message board! Georgia Southern will be awful next year and the offense will never work and everyone just needs to overlook us and mark us up as a W

Once the option works next year, then people will say it will take a year or two to figure out. Then a couple of years later when it is still working, they will finally understand. Not trying to sound cocky, but that is how things will play out.

ASU doesn't face Georgia Southern next year, so feel free to dominate the rest of these losers all you want.

(12-05-2013 10:31 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  ASU doesn't face Georgia Southern next year, so feel free to dominate the rest of these losers all you want.

Would be weird if we won the conference because we didn't face two of the best teams. And for the record, I am not predicting a SBC title next year.

Want to see how to contain the triple option, cue App State game film.

I will give credit where it is due and this year's game at App was a pitiful one for Ga. Southern. When McKinnon went out we just totally deflated. App's passing attack looked like a pro team vs. a high school team as we seemed totally incapable to stopping them at all.

But we have had our years also. App. has not shut down our offense year after year. This year's game at App was unusual in the margin of victory. Usually the game is within 7 points one way or the other.

Hopefully we can do better next year in Statesboro. :)

(12-05-2013 10:57 PM)GaSoEagle Wrote:  I will give credit where it is due and this year's game at App was a pitiful one for Ga. Southern. When McKinnon went out we just totally deflated. App's passing attack looked like a pro team vs. a high school team as we seemed totally incapable to stopping them at all.

But we have had our years also. App. has not shut down our offense year after year. This year's game at App was unusual in the margin of victory. Usually the game is within 7 points one way or the other.

Hopefully we can do better next year in Statesboro. :)

First drive we were in the flexbone under center and we went through them like a knife through butter. Then we decide to use the shotgun and it was all downhill.

(12-05-2013 07:54 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 07:18 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  There is that stupid "defenses are fast now" argument. Every time I hear that I cringe. Speed has nothing to do with stopping the triple option.

I agree with that to a point. We just gashed one of the fastest defenses in the country. They were cocky about how fast they were I think and we used it to run them out of the play. We ran a ton of counter plays in this game and it caught UF offguard because we used their pursuit to the motion against them, to a very devestating effect.

But there's no doubt that defenders are more athletic these days. They are also better at lateral pursuit which is where the speed conversation comes into play. We have thrived over making teams run sideline to sideline in the past because the defenses were used to ground and pound/run up the middle offenses with the occasional play-action pass. The Youngstown State game is a perfect example of this. I wouldn't necessarily say their guys were running in molasses, but they were not able to match our lateral quickness and athleticism at all. They stood there and got cut out of the play or we just ran around them.

It's a lot harder to do that these days when defenses are designed to counter an offense's speed advantage. Along with that it's much harder to cut block. It showed in GT's games against Clemson and VT this year. Those guys were just so athletic they were shucking off blocks like it was nothing. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the offense, it just means you have to attack those defenses differently. Go back to the 80s Georgia Southern offenses and the 87-92 Hawaii teams with PJ at OC and see how you can flip this offense around and go full Run and Shoot with a lot of option mixed in. A lot of the formations we used against UF were Run and Shoot base formations, and we were involving A-backs as slot receiver threats all game.

We just have to be more willing to involve passing in our offense, and not be so stubborn to think we can win games without passing. Make no joke about it, we didn't pass against UF because we couldn't, not because we didn't have to. If we didn't have to we wouldn't have tried it at all. Ellison's throwing shoulder had been injured a few games earlier, so his passes were nowhere near as good as they had been earlier in the season. We're lucky that we we didn't throw a pick, because their pass defense is really good. I have a feeling moving forward though, that we're going to need to increase our number of pass plays and make sure that a majority of them are completions. This means we're going to need a short/intermediate passing game. You average 120ish passing yards/game with a ~60% completion and you'll be able to run all over people because no one will be loading the line anymore.

Again, that means nothing. Those that say defenses are more athletic now than in the past are nuts. They aren't. Offenses are more athletic now than before. Trust me, the best athletes on the field are still on offense.

(12-05-2013 10:48 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Want to see how to contain the triple option, cue App State game film.

Yea, it's called shoot yourself in the foot and lose your mind when your star player gets hurt. I think App was really our lowest point injury wise. There was at least 1 scout team OL making his first start in that game. SCOUT.TEAM.OL.

Whatever you did in 2011 was the most effective you've been. 2012 wasn't a herculean effort by your defense. 2013 was a combination of things on our side and solid defense on your part.

Honestly, Florida's scheme should have worked. They just didn't pay attention during film study.

(12-06-2013 07:12 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 07:54 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 07:18 AM)eagleskins Wrote:  There is that stupid "defenses are fast now" argument. Every time I hear that I cringe. Speed has nothing to do with stopping the triple option.

I agree with that to a point. We just gashed one of the fastest defenses in the country. They were cocky about how fast they were I think and we used it to run them out of the play. We ran a ton of counter plays in this game and it caught UF offguard because we used their pursuit to the motion against them, to a very devestating effect.

But there's no doubt that defenders are more athletic these days. They are also better at lateral pursuit which is where the speed conversation comes into play. We have thrived over making teams run sideline to sideline in the past because the defenses were used to ground and pound/run up the middle offenses with the occasional play-action pass. The Youngstown State game is a perfect example of this. I wouldn't necessarily say their guys were running in molasses, but they were not able to match our lateral quickness and athleticism at all. They stood there and got cut out of the play or we just ran around them.

It's a lot harder to do that these days when defenses are designed to counter an offense's speed advantage. Along with that it's much harder to cut block. It showed in GT's games against Clemson and VT this year. Those guys were just so athletic they were shucking off blocks like it was nothing. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the offense, it just means you have to attack those defenses differently. Go back to the 80s Georgia Southern offenses and the 87-92 Hawaii teams with PJ at OC and see how you can flip this offense around and go full Run and Shoot with a lot of option mixed in. A lot of the formations we used against UF were Run and Shoot base formations, and we were involving A-backs as slot receiver threats all game.

We just have to be more willing to involve passing in our offense, and not be so stubborn to think we can win games without passing. Make no joke about it, we didn't pass against UF because we couldn't, not because we didn't have to. If we didn't have to we wouldn't have tried it at all. Ellison's throwing shoulder had been injured a few games earlier, so his passes were nowhere near as good as they had been earlier in the season. We're lucky that we we didn't throw a pick, because their pass defense is really good. I have a feeling moving forward though, that we're going to need to increase our number of pass plays and make sure that a majority of them are completions. This means we're going to need a short/intermediate passing game. You average 120ish passing yards/game with a ~60% completion and you'll be able to run all over people because no one will be loading the line anymore.

Again, that means nothing. Those that say defenses are more athletic now than in the past are nuts. They aren't. Offenses are more athletic now than before. Trust me, the best athletes on the field are still on offense.

So, offenses have gotten more athletic and defenses have stayed in the neckroll days. Is that what you're saying?

The point I've been trying to make that no one seems to understand is that our offense back in the late 90s/early 00s was at a level of athleticism that was ahead of anything pretty much every team was doing. Offenses have FINALLY caught up to it in the last few years. In doing so, the defenses have come up to that level as well. So now we actually have to out execute/use scheme to our advantage instead of just being faster/more athletic. You just can't do that anymore.

(12-05-2013 10:48 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Want to see how to contain the triple option, cue App State game film.

Ha! Yeah, App St certainly appears to have a good grasp on it recently. Don't go giving away your secrets to the rest of the Belt.