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…are Democrats so opposed to cutting spending?

backlash in the streets?



As of Friday, nearly every House Democrat had signed on to a plan to force a vote via a discharge petition on a “clean” increase that would not include any concessions to Republicans on spending.
The brinksmanship currently being displayed seems to hinge on Republican insistence on cutting spending vs. Democratic insistence on being allowed to spend as much as they want.

Kind of reminiscent of a 16 year old girl insisting she can stay out as late as she wants, and the parents insisting on a 11:00 curfew.

Comparing Democrats to 16 YO girls seems especially apt. Somebody has to be the adult here. It isn't the left.

I believe the debt limit was originally enacted in the hopes that it would curb runaway spending. The many limit raises since show it isn't working for that purpose.
I'm just honestly dismayed that so few people are talking about the fact that between 2015 and 2018, spending went from 4.6 to 4.83 trillion... which is a relatively small move... I mean, what's $230Byn among friends...

and then of course we increased in 2019 to 5.14 trillion and then of course exploded in 2020 to 7.47 trillion as a result of the pandemic, and essentially maintained that in 2021 at 7.38 trillion... dropping to 6.27 trillion in 2022, which is still about $1.5 TRILLION more than 2018, and more than 5 times the increase between 2015 and 2018...

The CBO projects spending in 2023 will be 6.3 trillion so basically the same as 2022, and now Biden wants to 'bump it back up' to 6.8 or 6.9 trillion for 2024.

How this doesn't even register with the left as 'not letting a tragedy go do waste (the massive spending increase in 2020), I just don't understand.

2020 aside, and even 2021 if we want... between 2022 and 2024, we will have added more than $5 trillion, or about the total that we spend per year.... and an additional $2 trillion or so each year going forward with no end in sight.

GDP rises by about 2-3% per year on average... Spending is up about 30%, even excluding 2020 and 2021.... and this of course becomes the new reality.

How this isn't even worth 'discussing' (Biden's original stance and still HARSH and serius rhetoric being claimed about anyone who dares question this) is truly baffling. Instead they simply have engaged in the comments that 'as a percentage of GDP, spending is still pretty low. Well, it's now about 25% of GDP, and was 20% in 2015. That's a lot of trillions... and NOT a 1 nor even 3 year 'blip', but the new reality
There are only two ways to decrease the deficit and debt--increase revenues or decrease expenditures. And expenditures can be further divided between defense/national security and social welfare. Let's look at each:

Increasing revenues tends to come across as increasing taxes, specifically increasing tax rates, which is unfortunate because there are other and better ways. To understand the picture better, let's compare USA tax rates to those in the Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Finland. Some results may surprise you (USA rates include average state taxes).

Total tax bite out of GDP: Nordic 41.9%, USA 25.0%
Top individual income tax rate: Nordic 43.6%, USA 41.7%
Top rate kicks in at: Nordic 1.4 times average income, USA 8.5 times average income
Average wage earner income tax rate: Nordic 21.9%, USA 11.7%
Top corporate income tax rate: Nordic 20.9%, USA 25.8%
Sales/consumption tax rate: Nordic 24.6%, USA 6.0%
(Source: OECD Tax Database, online at https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database/)

Clearly, the Nordic systems generate far greater tax revenues (as a % of GDP) than the USA system, but not really by taxing the rich and definitely not by taxing corporations. They generate greater revenues from two sources that primarily hit the average person--income taxes and consumption taxes. It's an everybody pays and everybody benefits system (most social programs are not means-tested). By the way, the Nordic tax approach--lower, flatter, and broader (larger tax base)--is exactly what both the Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin groups recommended over a decade ago when looking at reducing the deficit and debt.

Decreasing social expenditures: Because the Nordics are everybody pays/everybody benefits, they do not require the legion of bureaucrats to perform the gatekeeping function, and therefore their administrative costs are substantially less. For example, France can provide Bismarck-funded care to 99.9% of its population for less per capita than the USA spends not to provide universal care. Same on the welfare side, where a subsistence-level universal basic income (UBI) can cost less than the hodge-podge of focused and means-tested income redistribution programs.

Decreasing defense spending: Here the problem is a bit trickier because there is an obvious need to maintain a capable force, else none of the other stuff matters. USA defense spending currently goes 14% ($100B out of a $700B defense budget) to combat, 9% ($60B) to combat support, and 77% ($540B) to admin/overhead. You could add 50% to combat and combat support and cut 25% from admin/overhead to produce far greater defense capability while generating a $50B reduction in overall defense spending. Reforming procurement could also help. The Navy, for example, is spending about $15B apiece on the Ford class carriers (versus $9B for the preceding Nimitz class), and so far the cats, traps, weapons lifts--and toilets--are not performing up to par. The Navy is obsessed with high-dollar, high (and untested) tech, cutting-edge acquisitions, when some gaping holes in capability could be addressed far more cheaply--anti-submarine warfare (ASW), naval gunfire support (NGFS), and mine warfare. Finally, 400K active duty shots with 1MM reserve sots for half the cost, while increasing end strength by 600K. By the way, that is how Israel, Switzerland, and Sweden manage to punch above their weights--and how Russia and China do it, for that matter.

So there are ways to cut fat while actually increasing muscle.
I greatly appreciate your input above, numbers... and while it is not exactly my preferred method... I would accept such a plan.

The problem is, too many politicians in the US have made way too much hay/taken way too much power by arguing that 'the other side' is favoring their constituents at the expense of 'theirs'.... (That's poorly worded but I hope you follow).

If we tax corporations less and go with a VAT (which is REALLY a very similar tax model in terms of who pays, other than the fact that our model ENCOURAGES wasteful spending and huge payments to executives) then the left will argue that this is a gift to the wealthy. If we tax the middle class more, the right will point that out... and the left won't want to admit that they're doing so because they claim to be 'champions' of these people.

The BIGGEST problem is that explaining the differences in our taxing mechanisms and the net results would require people who most often have the personalities of guys like Ben Shapiro to overcome 'touchy-feely' arguments by people with vastly less prickly personalities.... the personality of Joel Olstein. Shapiro's grasp of concepts and details, with Reagan's ability to deliver.

And you have to remember... these tax loopholes exist and remain open BECAUSE that is how politicians (on both sides) want it. Political contributions are tax deductible after all.... and if you make a ton of money and are in the highest tax bracket, that means that the ability to deduct that donation is worth a lot of money. The 40% tax bracket vs the 15% tax bracket is worth 400k vs 150k on $1mm.

I mean seriously... everyone laments that WalMart (and many other companies) pays little to no taxes but their executives make a fortune, mostly in stock options because the tax on those are at least deferred (sometimes for generations) and also taxed as 'gains' rather than 'income'.... and yet none of them recognize that this is precisely WHY WalMart does what it does. Because they get to deduct the expense, and the individuals get to delay the taxes to the point where the taxes are basically worthless.

Of course, w-2 employees can't do much of this... which is why all these tik-tockers are telling people to buy airbnb's or become influencers or re-sellers on amazon... because NOW you're a 'business', even if you really don't do anything. I mean, at least the guys selling the t-shirts have to decide on what colors and artwork to offer.... and then telling you to buy a 100k SUV and accellerate the depreciation to shelter it against some of your w-2 income.

These are ALL tax games. 95% of the economics of all of this is based on taxation, not on 'worth'.... and it runs the price of real estate through the roof based on nothing but tax treatments/benefits for the wealthy... or at least those who can front the expenses.
Thanks to everybody, but I just wish somebody, anybody, but especially a Blue teamer, would answer the title question:


Why are Democrats so opposed to cutting spending?

From the link in post #1: As of Friday, nearly every House Democrat had signed on to a plan to force a vote via a discharge petition on a “clean” increase that would not include any concessions to Republicans on spending.
(05-25-2023 09:21 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks to everybody, but I just wish somebody, anybody, but especially a Blue teamer, would answer the title question:


Why are Democrats so opposed to cutting spending?

From the link in post #1: As of Friday, nearly every House Democrat had signed on to a plan to force a vote via a discharge petition on a “clean” increase that would not include any concessions to Republicans on spending.

I alluded to it.

They want government spending to be higher... they want to control more money and more actions. The massive spending hikes from the pandemic have given them an opportunity to treat this (spending 7 trillion/yr as opposed to 5) as the 'new reality'

Think about it. That's a HUGE increase in the federal budget.... depending on how you want to look at it... its a 40% jump (2 trillion added to 5). Absolutely unprecedented. Even if they ultimately settle in at just 6 trillion (which would involve massive cuts), that's STILL a 20% jump.

and way too many people are too ignorant to even really notice.

Yes, some dems are fine with this jump... its literally what they want... socialism... government control over more and more of our lives... but many others just don't get it.

the arguments on the left only come in on exactly where to spend the money and whom to tax for it (or whether or not you even need to balance the budget)
(05-26-2023 09:06 AM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2023 09:21 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks to everybody, but I just wish somebody, anybody, but especially a Blue teamer, would answer the title question:


Why are Democrats so opposed to cutting spending?

From the link in post #1: As of Friday, nearly every House Democrat had signed on to a plan to force a vote via a discharge petition on a “clean” increase that would not include any concessions to Republicans on spending.

I alluded to it.

They want government spending to be higher... they want to control more money and more actions. The massive spending hikes from the pandemic have given them an opportunity to treat this (spending 7 trillion/yr as opposed to 5) as the 'new reality'

Think about it. That's a HUGE increase in the federal budget.... depending on how you want to look at it... its a 40% jump (2 trillion added to 5). Absolutely unprecedented. Even if they ultimately settle in at just 6 trillion (which would involve massive cuts), that's STILL a 20% jump.

and way too many people are too ignorant to even really notice.

Yes, some dems are fine with this jump... its literally what they want... socialism... government control over more and more of our lives... but many others just don't get it.

the arguments on the left only come in on exactly where to spend the money and whom to tax for it (or whether or not you even need to balance the budget)

Yes, you did.

I would bet that everybody here thinks spending should be curtailed, yet some will vote for more spending...again. I wonder what their excuses are.
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