Stewart Mandel went on BYU SportsNation to talk B12 Conference. It was a B12 show, so the conversation was heavily slanted towards B12, but there were good tidbits (and a lot of repeats from Mandel's other podcasts/articles):
https://youtu.be/0FtG0HZjdHs
-Mandel likes the B12 Pro Day concept. Thinks it's "a great idea" that Yormark deserves "a lot of credit" for conceiving. Thinks it will bring more NFL people to Pro Day and be "a cool experience" for players who weren't invited to combine.
-We are "near the finish line" on Pac negotiations.
-Two "existential threats" to Pac existence: Oregon/Washington to B1G or more than two 4C schools to B12.
-Confirms Oregon/Washington met with B1G last fall. Questions whether Oregon/Washington could "play hardball" and push for unequal revenue sharing in Pac, like FSU in ACC.
-Mandel says Gonzaga to B12 is "inevitable", and expects the move "in a few weeks". The Zags will only leave WCC if they can take all sports. Mandel says he has been told that the B12 has given Zags "assurance" that they will be able to house all sports in B12.
-Says Pac is not an option because the conference "is not far enough along" to make any assurances to Gonzaga.
-B12 priority is still 4C, but "whatever happens there... they still want Gonzaga". Yormark wants to "distinguish" B12 as the top basketball conference. Although football drives the revenue bus, basketball "is not insignificant".
-Says B12 has the "biggest draw" over Pac in basketball exposure: Pac Basketball "might as well be taking place on Jupiter" and gets "no exposure", with "almost all the games on Pac 12 Network". References that the Pac Championship game took place at 1030pm ET.
Good find. A lot more declarative than the stories of “Gonzaga and the Big 12 are talking but they don’t know if they’ll invite them.”
For as much as we got into a tizzy that Kliavkoff went to an SMU basketball game in public, Yormark has been even more open and direct about publicly saying that he’s talking to Gonzaga. There’s not even an attempt at hiding it or the standard commissioner-speak of “We engage in discussions with lots of people in college sports all of the time and we’re monitoring all of our options.”
So, I’d be surprised if Gonzaga doesn’t get a Big 12 invite (more based on Yormark’s prior willingness to talk so openly about them than this latest tidbit). The move would make a lot of sense for both parties.
Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
(03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
Well he's definitely fooling himself if history tells us everything. Mid-major call-ups have struggled mightily in their new conferences. That being said, just stop talking and move already.
(03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
(03-16-2023 08:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
Gonzaga is definitely a brand at this current time. But it won't be anymore if they start having 16-16 seasons for a decade. Their brand isn't nature enough to weather a decade of mediocrity.
Mandel could be right or he could be wrong. Frankly, the media coverage of conference realignment has turned into something like opposition media in political coverage where there are biases at hand and people speak in half-truths to for their agenda. I don’t believe any of them- Mandel, Canzano, Dodd, etc.
(03-16-2023 08:14 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
Well he's definitely fooling himself if history tells us everything. Mid-major call-ups have struggled mightily in their new conferences. That being said, just stop talking and move already.
Well, Utah has been to 5 straight PAC-12 championship games, winning the last two.
Nobody (including Yormark) thinks that Gonzaga is going to win 90% of their games in the Big 12 like they do in the WCC. That actually is kind of the point of this conference move-if the WCC was as good of a conference as the Big 12, then Gonzaga would have no interest in leaving the WCC. Gonzaga is searching for a conference with better competition.
(03-16-2023 08:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote: [ -> ]Mandel could be right or he could be wrong. Frankly, the media coverage of conference realignment has turned into something like opposition media in political coverage where there are biases at hand and people speak in half-truths to for their agenda. I don’t believe any of them- Mandel, Canzano, Dodd, etc.
That's probably a good attitude to have, but usually these writer's statements don't describe moves as "inevitable"
(03-16-2023 08:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
What is your definition of "legit brand" in terms of longevity? If Gonzaga went 10-20, would they still be a legit brand? I know the other programs you mentioned would be.
Gonzaga is a small Catholic school in the Pacific Northwest with an incredible run under one coach. They still don't have anywhere near the brand power UNLV had in their heyday, if you recall. UNLV Starter jackets and hats were seen across television sets in music videos, Nike jerseys and shorts in pickup games, and in schools across America. Gonzaga? Nah, bro.
Look at UNLV now: the longest tourney drought of any MWC program while simultaneously holding the most tournament appearances. Zero national brand power—which is actually kind of sad and makes me miss the 90's.
Look at Villanova. It's scary how much they've fallen off in ONE season. Georgetown? These are mega Catholic school brands and they're nowhere to be seen.
That said, Gonzaga absolutely needs to jump at the offer for security (heck, I hope they invite Villanova as well). But I see their fate much like BC in the ACC, minus a scrappy football team.
(03-16-2023 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
What is your definition of "legit brand" in terms of longevity? If Gonzaga went 10-20, would they still be a legit brand? I know the other programs you mentioned would be.
Gonzaga is a small Catholic school in the Pacific Northwest with an incredible run under one coach. They still don't have anywhere near the brand power UNLV had in their heyday, if you recall. UNLV Starter jackets and hats were seen across television sets in music videos, Nike jerseys and shorts in pickup games, and in schools across America. Gonzaga? Nah, bro.
Look at UNLV now: the longest tourney drought of any MWC program while simultaneously holding the most tournament appearances. Zero national brand power—which is actually kind of sad and makes me miss the 90's.
Look at Villanova. It's scary how much they've fallen off in ONE season. Georgetown? These are mega Catholic school brands and they're nowhere to be seen.
That said, Gonzaga absolutely needs to jump at the offer for security (heck, I hope they invite Villanova as well). But I see their fate much like BC in the ACC, minus a scrappy football team.
it would be great if UNC could have a decade or 2 of 10-20 type seasons to test their brand power.
(03-16-2023 08:46 AM)ballantyneapp Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
What is your definition of "legit brand" in terms of longevity? If Gonzaga went 10-20, would they still be a legit brand? I know the other programs you mentioned would be.
Gonzaga is a small Catholic school in the Pacific Northwest with an incredible run under one coach. They still don't have anywhere near the brand power UNLV had in their heyday, if you recall. UNLV Starter jackets and hats were seen across television sets in music videos, Nike jerseys and shorts in pickup games, and in schools across America. Gonzaga? Nah, bro.
Look at UNLV now: the longest tourney drought of any MWC program while simultaneously holding the most tournament appearances. Zero national brand power—which is actually kind of sad and makes me miss the 90's.
Look at Villanova. It's scary how much they've fallen off in ONE season. Georgetown? These are mega Catholic school brands and they're nowhere to be seen.
That said, Gonzaga absolutely needs to jump at the offer for security (heck, I hope they invite Villanova as well). But I see their fate much like BC in the ACC, minus a scrappy football team.
it would be great if UNC could have a decade or 2 of 10-20 type seasons to test their brand power.
Hard to do that when 20-13 is considered completely miserable. Would that be an all-time win total in the mountains?
I don't get the logic of adding Gonzaga. The nB12 is already a very strong hoops conference, maybe the strongest. Why take on Gonzaga just for hoops?
I do not believe that there is a shale-oil type reservoir of "untapped hoops $$$" that is waiting to be unlocked.
(03-16-2023 08:38 AM)Poster Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:14 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
Well he's definitely fooling himself if history tells us everything. Mid-major call-ups have struggled mightily in their new conferences. That being said, just stop talking and move already.
Well, Utah has been to 5 straight PAC-12 championship games, winning the last two.
Nobody (including Yormark) thinks that Gonzaga is going to win 90% of their games in the Big 12 like they do in the WCC. That actually is kind of the point of this conference move-if the WCC was as good of a conference as the Big 12, then Gonzaga would have no interest in leaving the WCC. Gonzaga is searching for a conference with better competition.
Right, good point. But it is the PAC.
I had basketball on my mind though. Creighton, Wichita State, Loyola Chicago, the list goes on - all struggling compared to heydays.
(03-16-2023 08:46 AM)ballantyneapp Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
What is your definition of "legit brand" in terms of longevity? If Gonzaga went 10-20, would they still be a legit brand? I know the other programs you mentioned would be.
Gonzaga is a small Catholic school in the Pacific Northwest with an incredible run under one coach. They still don't have anywhere near the brand power UNLV had in their heyday, if you recall. UNLV Starter jackets and hats were seen across television sets in music videos, Nike jerseys and shorts in pickup games, and in schools across America. Gonzaga? Nah, bro.
Look at UNLV now: the longest tourney drought of any MWC program while simultaneously holding the most tournament appearances. Zero national brand power—which is actually kind of sad and makes me miss the 90's.
Look at Villanova. It's scary how much they've fallen off in ONE season. Georgetown? These are mega Catholic school brands and they're nowhere to be seen.
That said, Gonzaga absolutely needs to jump at the offer for security (heck, I hope they invite Villanova as well). But I see their fate much like BC in the ACC, minus a scrappy football team.
it would be great if UNC could have a decade or 2 of 10-20 type seasons to test their brand power.
That's the point. That won't happen. The brand is too strong. Duke was good before Coach K and should be fine without him. Unfortunately.
(03-16-2023 08:44 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
I’d say that Gonzaga is a legit brand at this point, which is distinct from being simply a great basketball team. Baylor and Houston have great basketball programs, for instance, but I don’t think they’re *brands* in the way that Kansas is an elite brand. This was borne out in the TV ratings of regular season games this year. Other than the anomaly of the DePaul-Creighton Christmas game that aired directly after an NFL game, every game with over 1.5 million viewers involved at least one true basketball brand (UNC, Duke, Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky) and/or one of the top all-sports brands (Michigan). That’s instructive because all of those teams were competitively down by their historic norms other than Kansas and UCLA this season, so brand status seems to drive basketball TV ratings even more than football (where TV ratings have become more meritocratic since the start of the CFP). I think that’s what Gonzaga brings - it’s a real brand at this point for the Big 12 to add to Kansas.
What is your definition of "legit brand" in terms of longevity? If Gonzaga went 10-20, would they still be a legit brand? I know the other programs you mentioned would be.
Gonzaga is a small Catholic school in the Pacific Northwest with an incredible run under one coach. They still don't have anywhere near the brand power UNLV had in their heyday, if you recall. UNLV Starter jackets and hats were seen across television sets in music videos, Nike jerseys and shorts in pickup games, and in schools across America. Gonzaga? Nah, bro.
Look at UNLV now: the longest tourney drought of any MWC program while simultaneously holding the most tournament appearances. Zero national brand power—which is actually kind of sad and makes me miss the 90's.
Look at Villanova. It's scary how much they've fallen off in ONE season. Georgetown? These are mega Catholic school brands and they're nowhere to be seen.
That said, Gonzaga absolutely needs to jump at the offer for security (heck, I hope they invite Villanova as well). But I see their fate much like BC in the ACC, minus a scrappy football team.
I agree. I worry that one new coach turns this into a very bad invite. Look at Witchita State in the AAC. Coach gone and now very mediocre.
(03-16-2023 10:15 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get the logic of adding Gonzaga. The nB12 is already a very strong hoops conference, maybe the strongest. Why take on Gonzaga just for hoops?
I do not believe that there is a shale-oil type reservoir of "untapped hoops $$$" that is waiting to be unlocked.
Tend to agree. And they are like Boise. Really good long term run, but if they fall off they quickly disappear.
Plus, partial members makes the conference look mid-major.
(03-16-2023 10:28 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 10:15 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get the logic of adding Gonzaga. The nB12 is already a very strong hoops conference, maybe the strongest. Why take on Gonzaga just for hoops?
I do not believe that there is a shale-oil type reservoir of "untapped hoops $$$" that is waiting to be unlocked.
Tend to agree. And they are like Boise. Really good long term run, but if they fall off they quickly disappear.
Plus, partial members makes the conference look mid-major.
I've gone back and forth on adding Gonzaga but in the context that Yormark wants to separate out media deal negotiations for hoops and for football then it has some merits.
(03-16-2023 10:24 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:38 AM)Poster Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:14 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2023 08:08 AM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]Yormark must believe in the long term viability of Gonzaga athletics to include any non-football school in a P5 conference. IMO, huge win for Gonzaga, although I do question life after Few.
The WCC becomes St. Mary’s’ to lose
Well he's definitely fooling himself if history tells us everything. Mid-major call-ups have struggled mightily in their new conferences. That being said, just stop talking and move already.
Well, Utah has been to 5 straight PAC-12 championship games, winning the last two.
Nobody (including Yormark) thinks that Gonzaga is going to win 90% of their games in the Big 12 like they do in the WCC. That actually is kind of the point of this conference move-if the WCC was as good of a conference as the Big 12, then Gonzaga would have no interest in leaving the WCC. Gonzaga is searching for a conference with better competition.
Right, good point. But it is the PAC.
I had basketball on my mind though. Creighton, Wichita State, Loyola Chicago, the list goes on - all struggling compared to heydays.
I wouldn’t say Creighton is struggling, and the other two are good examples, but they aren’t in power leagues.
(03-16-2023 10:15 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get the logic of adding Gonzaga. The nB12 is already a very strong hoops conference, maybe the strongest. Why take on Gonzaga just for hoops?
I do not believe that there is a shale-oil type reservoir of "untapped hoops $$$" that is waiting to be unlocked.
100% agree. Just don't see why disrupting a solid all sports B12 league that is already near the top basketball conference needs Gonzaga. And the Zags have been special because they can go 30-2 every year. When they start going 17-12....are they really special anymore? Just seems kind of unnecessary from Big 12 view. Not to mention being 1500 miles from the closest other school not BYU. 2800 miles from UCF.
Prior to Few joining in 1999, the Zags had made 2 NCAA tournaments ever in a 50 year history. I think of this similar to Greg Marshall at Wichita State. Prior to Greg Marshall....WSU made 1 NCAA between 1987 and 2011. 24 years! Marshall shows up and takes Wichita to all time highs (7 NCAA in 13 years). Post Marshall...not going so great. Just like pre Marshall.
So is Gonzaga a top program because of Gonzaga the school or because of Few?
Few would have crushed it at any program.
So I tend to see a big drop-off coming post Few.....especially in the grind of the Big 12. So eventually Big 12 may get stuck with a middle of the conference Gonzaga that is 1500-3000 miles from no where. Like I said...just seems unnecessary to start adding non-football schools when you already have strong basketball conference.