Important Notes:
Existing FBS conferences remain intact for:
(1) NCAA and conference governance;
(2) Pooling of media rights (remains optional);
(3) Organization of competition in other sports.
Current 10 FBS conferences will be paired:
ACC + Sun Belt
BXII + AAC
B1G + MAC
SEC + CUSA
PAC + MTW
Disposition of ND, UConn, UMass, and Army subject to negotiation. I assumed that ND will play with the ACC schools; UConn and UMass with Sun Belt/ACC; and Army with AAC.
Initially the P5 conference forms an upper division, and the G5 conference forms a lower division.
ACC: Upper Division (14+1); Lower Division (14+2)
BXII: Upper Division (12); Lower Division (14+1)
B1G: Upper Division (16); Lower Division (12)
SEC: Upper Division (16); Lower Division (10)
PAC: Upper Division (10); Lower Division (12)
At the end of each season, the 1st place team in the Lower Division plays the last place team in the Upper Division, and the 2nd place team in the Lower Division plays the next-to-last team in the Upper Division. Winners promote/remain in Upper Division; Losers relegate/remain in Lower Division. Promotion could depend on certain facilities (e.g. 30,000 seat stadium).
Playoffs for upper divisions become 5+7, or could expand (12/69 = 17%, 20/69 = 29%). In a 20 team playoff could be 5x2 + 10, with Top 2 in each conference and two at-large could have first round byes. Each conference could nominate four teams for 10 at-large teams.
There could also be a playoff for the Lower Divisions.
This could be extended to include FCS schools:
ACC/Sun Belt/CAA/(Patriot, MEAC, Big South, Ivy, NEC)
BXII/AAC/(WAC,S'land)
B1G/MAC/MVFC/Pioneer
SEC/CUSA/(ASUN,OVC,SWAC)
PAC/MTW/B Sky
Distinction between FBS and FCS would be eliminated. A current FCS school would be permitted to increase their scholarship count by 5 per year with the new total guaranteed for 5 seasons. After the five year guarantee is reached, football scholarships could be reduced by three per season.
This isn’t European soccer. You aren’t suddenly going to get everyone to agree to this.
(02-03-2023 04:03 AM)jimrtex Wrote: [ -> ]Promotion could depend on certain facilities (e.g. 30,000 seat stadium).
Obviously no P5 would agree with this, but it's a message board thought experiment and no sillier than most.
My only comment is that I don't see the need to bring stadium size or attendance into anything. Whole point of this would be settling things (more or less) on the field.
*Morphs into Irving O. Salzberg, Jr.*
GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!
I'LL SEE YOU NEVER WORK AGAIN!
*Morphs out of Irving O. Salzberg, Jr.*
The only way I can see relegated/promotion possibly work is if you get 18-20 team conferences and it all stays within conference with 2 separate groups. Maybe if we get to the P4, make it to where the champions of the top group gets the bye in the CFP, the champions of the bottom group and the top 2 G5 champs get an autobid, then allow the top 4 at-larges to participate in a play-in game to enter the 12 team CFP field with the 10 champs.
Edit: now thinking about it. Obviously won't happen, but
Top group P4 champs get a bye.
Top 4-5 conference champs from bottom group P4 and the G5 conferences get an autobid into the 12 team field.
Top 6-8 at-larges participate in a play-in games.
CCGs would be used for promotion and relegation. The bottom group last place is relegated while 2nd and 3rd to last play each other to avoid relegation. In the bottom group, the champ is promoted while 2nd and 3rd play to get promoted.
We will not see promotion/relegation in college sports in the lifetimes of anyone on this board. I would say in my lifetime, but at my age that's not saying much. So, the lifetimes of anyone over the age of 20 (and probably their children's lifetimes as well). But never say never. Maybe in the 22nd century.
Not that this would ever happen in a million years, but I had a similar fantasy realignment idea for promotion/relegation:
PAC 12: Tier I
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
California
Stanford
USC
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
MOUNTAIN WEST: Tier II
Hawaii
Fresno State
San Diego State
San Jose State
UNLV
Nevada
BYU
Utah State
Colorado State
Air Force
New Mexico
New Mexico State
.............................................
SOUTHWEST: Tier I
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
TCU
SMU
Baylor
Houston
LSU
Louisiana
Arkansas
CONFERENCE USA: Tier II
Tulsa
Rice
UTSA
UTEP
Sam Houston State
Texas State
North Texas
Louisiana Monroe
Louisiana Tech
Tulane
Arkansas State
Central Arkansas
.............................................
BIG 12: Tier I
Boise State
Wyoming
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Missouri
Iowa State
Iowa
Illinois
Northwestern
Wisconsin
Minnesota
WAC: Tier II
Idaho
Idaho State
Montana
Montana State
North Dakota
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Northern Iowa
Missouri State
Illinois State
Northern Illinois
..............................................
BIG 10: Tier I
Michigan State
Michigan
Ohio State
Ohio
Cincinnati
Notre Dame
Purdue
Indiana
Louisville
Kentucky
MAC: Tier II
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Eastern Michigan
Toledo
Akron
Bowling Green
Kent State
Miami Ohio
Ball State
Western Kentucky
...............................................
SEC: Tier I
Vanderbilt
Tennessee
Mississippi
Mississippi State
Auburn
Alabama
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Central Florida
Florida
Florida State
Miami
SUNBELT: Tier II
Memphis
Middle Tennessee
Tennessee State
Southern Mississippi
South Alabama
UAB
Troy
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
South Florida
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
..............................................
ACC: Tier I
Marshall
West Virginia
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
Duke
North Carolina
NC State
South Carolina
Clemson
AMERICAN: Tier II
James Madison
Old Dominion
Liberty
William & Mary
Richmond
Charlotte
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
East Carolina
South Carolina State
...............................................
BIG EAST: Tier I
Boston College
Rutgers
Syracuse
Buffalo
Army
Navy
Maryland
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Temple
CAA: Tier II
Maine
New Hampshire
U Mass
U Conn
Rhode Island
Delaware
Delaware State
Albany
Villanova
Georgetown
(02-03-2023 05:14 PM)GoBuckeyes1047 Wrote: [ -> ]The only way I can see relegated/promotion possibly work is if you get 18-20 team conferences and it all stays within conference with 2 separate groups. Maybe if we get to the P4, make it to where the champions of the top group gets the bye in the CFP, the champions of the bottom group and the top 2 G5 champs get an autobid, then allow the top 4 at-larges to participate in a play-in game to enter the 12 team CFP field with the 10 champs.
Edit: now thinking about it. Obviously won't happen, but
Top group P4 champs get a bye.
Top 4-5 conference champs from bottom group P4 and the G5 conferences get an autobid into the 12 team field.
Top 6-8 at-larges participate in a play-in games.
CCGs would be used for promotion and relegation. The bottom group last place is relegated while 2nd and 3rd to last play each other to avoid relegation. In the bottom group, the champ is promoted while 2nd and 3rd play to get promoted.
^this
Only when a conference gets too large, will promotion/relegation make sense. IMHO, a 20 team conference will be able to create valuable football media content by organizing into two divisions. It'll be sold as NFL-like scheduling to promote parity...the strongest teams play against each other, the weaker teams will have easier schedules.
If the B1G ever expands with Washington, Oregon, Cal and Stanford, then I could see.
Top tier football: OSU, Mich, USC, Oregon, Wisconsin, PSU, Washington, Nebraska, Iowa, ?
Ohio State versus Michigan makes sense every year; Ohio State versus Rutgers can be much less frequent.
(02-03-2023 03:43 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote: [ -> ]This isn’t European soccer. You aren’t suddenly going to get everyone to agree to this.
I'm not proposing switching to running time or not using the hands. Fans will still be able to eat hamburgers and frankfurters and french fries at the game.
(02-03-2023 04:22 PM)inutech Wrote: [ -> ] (02-03-2023 04:03 AM)jimrtex Wrote: [ -> ]Promotion could depend on certain facilities (e.g. 30,000 seat stadium).
Obviously no P5 would agree with this, but it's a message board thought experiment and no sillier than most.
My only comment is that I don't see the need to bring stadium size or attendance into anything. Whole point of this would be settling things (more or less) on the field.
I may have brought this over from England, where teams were literally elected into the Football League. They would not want a team to get in over their head, and then disband in the middle of the season. And there have been some horrific stadium disasters in England. Imagine a wooden stadium with rubbish that had fallen through over the years, someone drops a cigarette and the whole stadium including the fans goes up in flames. They also had problems with standing room only areas where people were crushed. So now there are requirements for all-seater stadiums at higher levels.
You also want to be able to accommodate a reasonable number of visiting fans, and have actual dressing rooms.
I'm not talking about anything that LaTech couldn't handle. But maybe Northwestern State shouldn't be hosting LSU. My capacity thresholds might be 30,000 and 15,000 with some sort of waivers if they are close and a few 1000 can be handled on berms, or a new stadium is on the way. I wouldn't kick Hawai'i out.
(02-03-2023 05:14 PM)GoBuckeyes1047 Wrote: [ -> ]The only way I can see relegated/promotion possibly work is if you get 18-20 team conferences and it all stays within conference with 2 separate groups. Maybe if we get to the P4, make it to where the champions of the top group gets the bye in the CFP, the champions of the bottom group and the top 2 G5 champs get an autobid, then allow the top 4 at-larges to participate in a play-in game to enter the 12 team CFP field with the 10 champs.
My idea would contain pro/rel into five columns based on existing conferences. Schools could still switch conferences and move to conferences. If the system were in place now, OU/UT and USC/UCLA could still move.
There might be some flexibility. Imagine if Texas State were to win the Sun Belt. They might promote into the Big 12, rather than the ACC. Then when/if they relegated they might go back to the Sun Belt.
(02-03-2023 05:14 PM)GoBuckeyes1047 Wrote: [ -> ]Edit: now thinking about it. Obviously won't happen, but
Top group P4 champs get a bye.
Top 4-5 conference champs from bottom group P4 and the G5 conferences get an autobid into the 12 team field.
Top 6-8 at-larges participate in a play-in games.
CCGs would be used for promotion and relegation. The bottom group last place is relegated while 2nd and 3rd to last play each other to avoid relegation. In the bottom group, the champ is promoted while 2nd and 3rd play to get promoted.
I think there should be some interaction between the two levels. In essence the teams in the lower division should have to prove they are better than the teams they propose to replace.
(02-03-2023 06:04 PM)andy98 Wrote: [ -> ]Not that this would ever happen in a million years, but I had a similar fantasy realignment idea for promotion/relegation:
PAC 12: Tier I
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
California
Stanford
USC
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
MOUNTAIN WEST: Tier II
Hawaii
Fresno State
San Diego State
San Jose State
UNLV
Nevada
BYU
Utah State
Colorado State
Air Force
New Mexico
New Mexico State
.............................................
SOUTHWEST: Tier I
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
TCU
SMU
Baylor
Houston
LSU
Louisiana
Arkansas
CONFERENCE USA: Tier II
Tulsa
Rice
UTSA
UTEP
Sam Houston State
Texas State
North Texas
Louisiana Monroe
Louisiana Tech
Tulane
Arkansas State
Central Arkansas
.............................................
BIG 12: Tier I
Boise State
Wyoming
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Missouri
Iowa State
Iowa
Illinois
Northwestern
Wisconsin
Minnesota
WAC: Tier II
Idaho
Idaho State
Montana
Montana State
North Dakota
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Northern Iowa
Missouri State
Illinois State
Northern Illinois
..............................................
BIG 10: Tier I
Michigan State
Michigan
Ohio State
Ohio
Cincinnati
Notre Dame
Purdue
Indiana
Louisville
Kentucky
MAC: Tier II
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Eastern Michigan
Toledo
Akron
Bowling Green
Kent State
Miami Ohio
Ball State
Western Kentucky
...............................................
SEC: Tier I
Vanderbilt
Tennessee
Mississippi
Mississippi State
Auburn
Alabama
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Central Florida
Florida
Florida State
Miami
SUNBELT: Tier II
Memphis
Middle Tennessee
Tennessee State
Southern Mississippi
South Alabama
UAB
Troy
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
South Florida
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
..............................................
ACC: Tier I
Marshall
West Virginia
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
Duke
North Carolina
NC State
South Carolina
Clemson
AMERICAN: Tier II
James Madison
Old Dominion
Liberty
William & Mary
Richmond
Charlotte
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
East Carolina
South Carolina State
...............................................
BIG EAST: Tier I
Boston College
Rutgers
Syracuse
Buffalo
Army
Navy
Maryland
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Temple
CAA: Tier II
Maine
New Hampshire
U Mass
U Conn
Rhode Island
Delaware
Delaware State
Albany
Villanova
Georgetown
I have thought of similar setups in the past. The problem is you move schools like LSU and Arkansas out of the SEC, so I avoid a pure geographical organization.
Using my proposed alignments using 2025 conference configurations.
Pro-Rel Matchups (with Massey Ratings to simulate standings):
Last vs. First
Vanderbilt (R CUSA) vs. Western Kentucky (P SEC)
If Western Kentucky wins pro/rel playoff they would promote to SEC, while Vanderbilt would relegate to CUSA. This would not be permanent, and it would be for football competition only. Vanderbilt would remain an SEC member, and could use its OOC games to play Tennessee and other SEC schools. Media rights for home games would continue to be held by the school, subject to transfer to the conferences. Kentucky @ Western Kentucky would be under the CUSA contract, MTSU @ Vanderbilt would be under the SEC contract. The SEC would retain administrative authority for aspects of competition such as scheduling and providing referees.
Northwestern (R MAC) vs. Toledo (P B1G)
Kansas (R AAC) vs. Tulane (P BXII)
Virginia Tech (R SBC) vs. Troy (P ACC)
Colorado (R MWC) vs. AFA (P PAC)
2nd/3rd Last vs. 2nd/3rd First
The teams in the upper division would play with the loser playing in the pro-rel game, while the teams in the lower division would play with the winner playing in the pro-rel game. To be relegated, an upper division team would have to lose twice, while to be promoted, a lower division team would have to win twice.
Texas A&M (R CUSA)-Missouri (R CUSA) vs. MTSU (P SEC)-Liberty (P SEC)
Conceivably, promotion or relegation could be to different conferences. For example, A&M might relegate to AAC, Missouri to the MAC, and Liberty to the ACC. Tulane might promote to the SEC.
Indiana (R MAC)-Rutgers (R MAC) vs. Ohio (P B1G)-Eastern Michigan (P B1G)
UCF (R AAC)-West Virginia (R AAC) vs. UTSA (P BXII)-Memphis(P BXII)
Virginia (R SBC)-Boston College (R SBC) vs. JMU (P ACC)-Marshall (P ACC)
Arizona State (R MWC)-Stanford(R MWC) vs. Fresno State (P PAC)-Boise State (P PAC)
2nd Tier vs. 3rd Tier
Pro-Rel could be extended to include FCS schools. An FBS school relegating to a third tier conference could continue to award 85 scholarships. An FCS school promoting to the second tier could gradually increase its football scholarships. With no reason for a formal distinction, FCS schools could also increase scholarships while playing in a third or fourth tier conference. They would of course be subject to Title IX requirements. Any growth of football scholarships would be gradual (perhaps +5 per year) to ensure that the increased aid is sustainable, decreases would also be gradual (perhaps -3 per year). Schools would remain DI for all other sports (e.g. UConn, Villanova, Georgetown, and St. John's could continue to compete in Big East basketball just like they do now).
Pro/Rel matchups between the 5 Tier 2 conferences (MWC, MAC, CUSA, AAC, and SBC) and the 5 Tier 3 conferences (Big Sky, MVFC, SoCon, WAC-ASUN, and CAA) would be based on proximity of the schools.
New Mexico (R Big Sky) vs. Montana State (P MWC)
Akron (R MVFC) vs. South Dakota State (P MAC)
Kennesaw State (R SoCon) vs. Samford (P SBC)
Charlotte (R SoCon) vs. Austin Peay (P CUSA)
UMass (R CAA) vs. William&Mary (P SBC)
Nevada (R Big Sky)-Hawaii (R Big Sky) vs. Sacramento State (P MWC)-Weber State (P MWC)
Bowling Green (R MVFC)-Northern Illinois (R MVFC) vs. North Dakota State (P MAC)-Northern Iowa (P MAC)
Sam Houston (R WAC-ASUN)-FIU (R WAC ASUN) vs. Richmond (P SBC)-Delaware (P SBC)
Texas State (R WAC-ASUN)-Arkansas State (R WAC-ASUN) vs. Abilene Christian (P CUSA)-Eastern Kentucky (P CUSA)
Rice (R WAC-ASUN)-South Florida (R SBC) vs. Furman (P SBC)-Mercer (P SBC)
Ah yes. Yet another college football promotion/relegation proposal. We've talked about this ad nauseum on this forum. It will never happen here because people need to get it through their heads that wins and losses aren't what drive conference realignment and/or what schools that are in power positions actually value.
(02-07-2023 10:31 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]Ah yes. Yet another college football promotion/relegation proposal. We've talked about this ad nauseum on this forum. It will never happen here because people need to get it through their heads that wins and losses aren't what drive conference realignment and/or what schools that are in power positions actually value.
Yep. And what they don't get is that unlike professional leagues, conferences are almost always for multiple sports, not just football or basketball. Teams that may not carry their weight in one sport make up for it in others. These conferences are just not comparable in any way to European soccer leagues. But that won't stop posters from raising pro/rel over and over. It's what we do here.
Obviously this is a fun thought and something you consider doing in NCAA 14, but imagine proposing this to Nebraska.
"If you all don't get it together, you may end up in the MAC in a year or two."
Even programs like Alabama and Ohio State don't want to risk that fall. And I really don't think they would trade Vanderbilt or Rutgers, for Troy and Toledo.
(02-07-2023 12:22 PM)jhjhanaway Wrote: [ -> ]Obviously this is a fun thought and something you consider doing in NCAA 14, but imagine proposing this to Nebraska.
"If you all don't get it together, you may end up in the MAC in a year or two."
Even programs like Alabama and Ohio State don't want to risk that fall. And I really don't think they would trade Vanderbilt or Rutgers, for Troy and Toledo.
Yes, that's the point.
Schools like Vandy and Rutgers are exactly what schools like Alabama and Ohio State *want* as last place teams: excellent academic schools directly in large TV markets and recruiting territories where a lot alums live.
Someone always has to finish last, so strong conferences want schools that still bring something to the table when they're 0-12, not just when they're 12-0 (whether it's a TV market, recruiting territory, high profile basketball program, prime location for alums, etc.). To ken d's point, these leagues are NOT just football conferences. Swapping Rutgers out for some Ohio-based MAC school is the LAST thing that Ohio State would want.