Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?
I say this as someone that actually thinks Colorado State has a lot of conference realignment potential: no, they’re not a viable option for the Pac-12 as long as Colorado is in that league, which is why they haven’t been discussed. It would be no different than Iowa State’s or even Pitt’s chances for the Big Ten, which are zero.
It’s also nonsensical that the Colorado legislature would bind CU and CSU together when they haven’t been in the same conference since the 1930s. That is completely different than the states that have 2 schools in the Pac-12 where the act of a flagship leaving the league would directly damage the “state” school.
Ditto that.
CSU needs to continue to up their game, in prep for a potential Big XII invite someday. Until, the MW is a great conference.
(01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ]Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?
The bolded statement seems self-contradictory to me. The first part of the sentence is the reason the second part isn't true.
Colorado State is kind of like USF ..... lots of potential, unrealized potential.
So "no".
I've been a strong proponent of Colorado State and Memphis if the Big 12 had to do additional G5 expansion.
But CSU has done nothing to make their case. Their failure to be dominant in the MWC is truly surprising. You have to go back to 2014/2013 to find the last "decent" seasons CSU had in the MWC. Over the past decade, they have finished in the bottom two of their division more often than not and haven't won it once. They and New Mexico stand out to me as potentially decent realignment options that have squandered their potential on decades of underachievement.
If either of these schools showed any modicum of consistent and sustained success at the height of the MWC, they would be strongly considered by both the PAC and Big 12.
Colorado State has a lot going for it as a research school, especially in Vet medicine. So if a conference is looking to add academic prestige, they would be a go-to.
Other than that they have little to offer. Their football has been sub-par for years and even the building of a new stadium hasn't drawn overwhelming interest from the fans. Acually beating Wyoming and/or Boise would go a long way. Basketball has flashes, but is inconsistent. They dropped baseball years ago. Their women's Basketball and Volleyball are very good.
As a university they have a tough time getting out of their own way having stumbled repeatedly in chosing new Presidents. The athletic department is propped up by 3 generous donors.
Fort Collins/Northern Colorado tops out at around 250K people and are rolled into the Denver viewing demographic. There is no local TV channel and the local newspaper is run by a skeleton force and printed in Denver. The fan base is hemmed in by the University of Wyoming to the north, U of Northern Colorado to the west and U of Colorado to the south. Most of the city residents are transplants with no affilitation to the university, and the townies view CSU in equal amounts nuisance as it is an asset. Youth soccer rules, followed closely by biking, softball, pickleball, high school baseball, hiking and microbreweries.
Lastly, CU would do everything in it's power to block any move that would tie the two together. It took an act of legislature to force the two to schedule each other in football after a 25 year gap. (They never played from 1958-1983)
(01-20-2023 10:13 AM)The Front Ranger Wrote: [ -> ]Colorado State has a lot going for it as a research school, especially in Vet medicine. So if a conference is looking to add academic prestige, they would be a go-to.
Other than that they have little to offer. Their football has been sub-par for years and even the building of a new stadium hasn't drawn overwhelming interest from the fans. Acually beating Wyoming and/or Boise would go a long way. Basketball has flashes, but is inconsistent. They dropped baseball years ago. Their women's Basketball and Volleyball are very good.
As a university they have a tough time getting out of their own way having stumbled repeatedly in chosing new Presidents. The athletic department is propped up by 3 generous donors.
Fort Collins/Northern Colorado tops out at around 250K people and are rolled into the Denver viewing demographic. There is no local TV channel and the local newspaper is run by a skeleton force and printed in Denver. The fan base is hemmed in by the University of Wyoming to the north, U of Northern Colorado to the west and U of Colorado to the south. Most of the city residents are transplants with no affilitation to the university, and the townies view CSU in equal amounts nuisance as it is an asset. Youth soccer rules, followed closely by biking, softball, pickleball, high school baseball, hiking and microbreweries.
Lastly, CU would do everything in it's power to block any move that would tie the two together. It took an act of legislature to force the two to schedule each other in football after a 25 year gap. (They never played from 1958-1983)
Nothing else needs to be said. Nailed it, and I mean, nailed it.
(01-20-2023 09:00 AM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ]Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?
The bolded statement seems self-contradictory to me. The first part of the sentence is the reason the second part isn't true.
I used the first pairing as a more geographical approach to realignment. A San Diego State/SMU combo doesn't make sense. SMU is a small private Christian school in Dallas Texas. Aside from their media market presence, they don't have much else to offer.
(01-20-2023 11:35 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 09:00 AM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ]Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?
The bolded statement seems self-contradictory to me. The first part of the sentence is the reason the second part isn't true.
I used the first pairing as a more geographical approach to realignment. A San Diego State/SMU combo doesn't make sense. SMU is a small private Christian school in Dallas Texas. Aside from their media market presence, they don't have much else to offer.
SMU is not a “Christian” school. Despite its Methodist roots, it is now no more of a religious school than USC or Vanderbilt
(01-20-2023 11:43 AM)World Wide Swag Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 11:35 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 09:00 AM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ]Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?
The bolded statement seems self-contradictory to me. The first part of the sentence is the reason the second part isn't true.
I used the first pairing as a more geographical approach to realignment. A San Diego State/SMU combo doesn't make sense. SMU is a small private Christian school in Dallas Texas. Aside from their media market presence, they don't have much else to offer.
SMU is not a “Christian” school. Despite its Methodist roots, it is now no more of a religious school than USC or Vanderbilt
Plus, SMU has a well-funded athletics program, has had a reasonable degree of football and basketball success over the past decade+, and offers the PAC-12 an inroad to Texas recruiting. SMU has a lot going for it and a lot of potential that getting back into a power conference might again unlock.
The debate likely is SMU versus Fresno, not SMU versus any other MWC team. There's a lot to be said for Fresno as a California school that has had good success and good fan support. Fresno has a pretty good ceiling in the PAC-12 too, but I imagine it will fail to overcome the academic stigma, while SDSU will overcome it by virtue of being the lone school truly in Southern California.
So if Fresno is out, you're looking at SMU with its money and Texas recruiting against a bunch of underwhelming MWC schools. Most of those schools have something to like about them, but none of them have what the PAC-12 needs: market/brand + high ceiling. As I've argued previously, UTSA is a more compelling addition than most of the MWC schools given that it is another market, deeper connections to Texas recruiting, and seems to have a high ceiling for success.
(01-20-2023 11:35 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 09:00 AM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote: [ -> ]Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?
The bolded statement seems self-contradictory to me. The first part of the sentence is the reason the second part isn't true.
I used the first pairing as a more geographical approach to realignment. A San Diego State/SMU combo doesn't make sense. SMU is a small private Christian school in Dallas Texas. Aside from their media market presence, they don't have much else to offer.
Why look at pairings at all? Colorado State offers nothing. If the PAC believes that SMU also offers nothing, and no other available school offers anything, then just add SDSU, which offers a presence in southern California and its huge population. The Big Ten did fine for years with 11 schools. Now that there is no rule requiring 12 for a CCG, any PAC wannabe has to bring something to the table.
I question how serious a San Diego St or Fresno St invite is.
(01-20-2023 09:04 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Colorado State is kind of like USF ..... lots of potential, unrealized potential.
So "no".
Colorado St. "looks like" a P5 program, but they have one of the historically worst football programs in FBS, not far above NMSU and UTEP. And so nobody outside CSU fans watches them. Plus, Colorado the state doesn't pay much attention to football. Despite CU's success, the Big 12 was told they were a drag on the Big 12's value when they left. Coloradans do things other than watch football on Saturdays.
(01-20-2023 10:18 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2023 10:13 AM)The Front Ranger Wrote: [ -> ]Colorado State has a lot going for it as a research school, especially in Vet medicine. So if a conference is looking to add academic prestige, they would be a go-to.
Other than that they have little to offer. Their football has been sub-par for years and even the building of a new stadium hasn't drawn overwhelming interest from the fans. Acually beating Wyoming and/or Boise would go a long way. Basketball has flashes, but is inconsistent. They dropped baseball years ago. Their women's Basketball and Volleyball are very good.
As a university they have a tough time getting out of their own way having stumbled repeatedly in chosing new Presidents. The athletic department is propped up by 3 generous donors.
Fort Collins/Northern Colorado tops out at around 250K people and are rolled into the Denver viewing demographic. There is no local TV channel and the local newspaper is run by a skeleton force and printed in Denver. The fan base is hemmed in by the University of Wyoming to the north, U of Northern Colorado to the west and U of Colorado to the south. Most of the city residents are transplants with no affilitation to the university, and the townies view CSU in equal amounts nuisance as it is an asset. Youth soccer rules, followed closely by biking, softball, pickleball, high school baseball, hiking and microbreweries.
Lastly, CU would do everything in it's power to block any move that would tie the two together. It took an act of legislature to force the two to schedule each other in football after a 25 year gap. (They never played from 1958-1983)
Nothing else needs to be said. Nailed it, and I mean, nailed it.
Hmmm Larimer and Weld counties (Northern Colorado) actually have combined 750K population and are growing fast.
Colorado State's reach includes the 3 million population of the Denver metro area. They aren't 'hemmed in' by Wyoming and Northern Colorado. They have way more potential than is given credit.
But, they do have the University of Colorado problem. So, not a real PAC 12 candidate unless University of Colorado leaves.
CSU has a 34K student body and more alumni than Kansas State, Iowa State, Texas Tech, and Oklahoma State...and way more than TCU or Baylor. (But fewer alumni than UCF, BYU, and Houston) They are on the Big 12's realignment board.
Missed opportunities and poor performance. If CSU had Boise State's or SDSU's records in football over the past decade, they would probably be joining the Big 12 this summer.
Colorado State is a rare example of a mid-major that should absolutely stay in the game of big time athletics because there is a real path for that school if they play their cards right. They have actual POWER potential beyond just a pipe dream.
I suspect that campaign from a few years ago that was supposed to promote CSU outwardly as having the donor dollar support there probably didn’t help instill confidence within other major conferences. Yes, the football stadium was built. No, it wasn’t done “the right way” for these type of things.
That’s a financial red flag. The lack of consistent success in the major programs probably only props up that if the money isn’t already readily there, and the sports are “meh,” then it’s not a good sign. If it’s tough now, what happens when it gets worse, and you have to spend more?
No doubt the academics and location are fine. They just aren’t anywhere near “big time.”
Colorado/Colorado St is an enigma. Colorado is the 21st largest state by population
South Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky, Oregon, Oklahoma, Utah, Iowa, Mississippi, and Kansas are all smaller and support 2 programs but somehow the Rocky Mountain State can’t.
I think it stems from the fact that Colorado wasn’t required to take care of Colorado St by the state legislature. The Buffalos got to the Big 6 without them all the way back in the 40s so the Rams didn’t have the state’s #1 school advocating for them and bringing them along for the ride.
Colorado St’s program was in such a weak condition, they weren’t even invited to be part of the original WAC in the early 60s.
Being the land grant as opposed to the flagship also hurt because Colorado ended up in the Big 12, where academics were important but not a deal breaker. For a conference like the PAC 10, where academics WERE a deal breaker, they weren’t going to try and carve out a presence with the state’s #2 academic school—they wanted #1.
Had Colorado St’s athletics been stronger, maybe they could have been the no brainer replacement for the Buffalos, but since they weren’t, there was no impetus to try and hang on to a presence in the state.
(01-20-2023 01:56 PM)Bronco14 Wrote: [ -> ]I question how serious a San Diego St or Fresno St invite is.
I don't know how serious either are, but the case for SDSU includes one factor that is not included in Fresno State ... Arizona State and Arizona appear to value their regular trips to Southern California -- at least, in the some of the tellings I have seen about how the divisional structure ended up the way it did, where they were not firm "yes" votes on Colorado and Utah without a guarantee that they would be travelling Southern California every year.
Colorado could well have similar views, and if they start to dig themselves out of the hole they have dug for themselves in football, their view of things could start to swing more weight.