(07-25-2022 10:43 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:31 AM)OrangeDude Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 09:22 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:35 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:11 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ]Notre Dame's situation with the ACC will: 1- either stay the same. Since Notre Dame already has an outside source of income (other than the ACC) it really does not matter how much that amount is. or 2-attempt to buy their way out of the contracts that now have with the ACC, if the ACC is willing to sell.
They already get outside revenue, I know that, but they don't get anywhere near $75M for TV revenue. They also get a full share of ACCN revenue and other streams because at one time the ACC needed ND to remain viable.
But you folks are missing the point. ND making a load of extra cash doesn't do anything to help the other ACC schools. It's the ACC contract that's their problem, not whether ND is in the fold or not. At this stage, the traditional powers of the ACC need to be in the SEC or Big Ten to compete. They're already at a huge and growing deficit and Notre Dame raking in a big payday just compounds that deficit...
Put yourself in the shoes of Florida State, are you ok with that arrangement and still giving additional favors to Notre Dame in order to preserve a conference that's actually damaging your own brand as opposed to sustaining it?
This isn't 2014...a lot of things have changed.
The one and only thing Notre Dame could do to buoy the ACC would be to join in full and I see no reason they would do that.
One way or the other, all these factors are going to lead to ACC schools finding a way to dissolve.
Exactly ATU, from the FSU perspective the LAST thing I want to see is Notre Dame appeased and willing to wait out the GoR. It does nothing good for us to play a few games against a wealthier ND while remaining stuck in a conference that is, exactly as you said, damaging our brand. ND going B1G is a key piece in many ways - gets the B1G expanding again and able to proceed to their endgame, provides another vote to potentially kill the ACC, changes the ACC 2016 status quo which provides a way to attack the GoR, and feeds the perception that the ACC is dying and kicks off the litigation circus. If the rump ACC finds itself in court battling all of its former top brands and ND, the remainders may become more amenable to settling and moving on to a sustainable and stable P3 future rather than gambling on years of contentious litigation that could result in a decade of big checks followed by a G5 future.
Isn't it just possible what may be damaging your brand even more is losing to some of those teams you despise in the ACC? Not to mention bad coaching hires including hanging on to Jimbo Fisher two years too many?
Over the past 5 years FSU has a record of 10-11 against Tier 3 Level ACC teams. Is 2-4 against Tier 2 Level ACC teams. And is 2-14 over that span against Clemson, Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida.
Just food for thought.
Cheers,
Neil
Absolutely, the fault ultimately lies with FSU for both our recent struggles and our imprisonment in the ACC. And both are damaging our brand every year that they continue. What's done is done, but I believe the path forward requires #1) consistently successful on-field football, #2) affiliating with like-minded regional universities that provide compelling matchups, and #3) adequate financial resources to fund #1, and to be competitive with our peers under #2. Improvement in any of the 3 areas will start to build back our brand, but only #1 could ever be achievable in the ACC. The B1G would make both #1 & #3 possible, while only a move to the SEC gives us the ability to achieve all 3. If we get that opportunity, it will still be up to FSU to wield #2 & #3 properly to make #1 happen.
Imprisonment in the ACC hasn't hurt Clemson too badly.
If you can't beat others in your same circumstance, how are you going to beat anyone else?
If you got SEC money and were still losing, then what would your excuse be?
(07-25-2022 11:42 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:43 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:31 AM)OrangeDude Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 09:22 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:35 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ]They already get outside revenue, I know that, but they don't get anywhere near $75M for TV revenue. They also get a full share of ACCN revenue and other streams because at one time the ACC needed ND to remain viable.
But you folks are missing the point. ND making a load of extra cash doesn't do anything to help the other ACC schools. It's the ACC contract that's their problem, not whether ND is in the fold or not. At this stage, the traditional powers of the ACC need to be in the SEC or Big Ten to compete. They're already at a huge and growing deficit and Notre Dame raking in a big payday just compounds that deficit...
Put yourself in the shoes of Florida State, are you ok with that arrangement and still giving additional favors to Notre Dame in order to preserve a conference that's actually damaging your own brand as opposed to sustaining it?
This isn't 2014...a lot of things have changed.
The one and only thing Notre Dame could do to buoy the ACC would be to join in full and I see no reason they would do that.
One way or the other, all these factors are going to lead to ACC schools finding a way to dissolve.
Exactly ATU, from the FSU perspective the LAST thing I want to see is Notre Dame appeased and willing to wait out the GoR. It does nothing good for us to play a few games against a wealthier ND while remaining stuck in a conference that is, exactly as you said, damaging our brand. ND going B1G is a key piece in many ways - gets the B1G expanding again and able to proceed to their endgame, provides another vote to potentially kill the ACC, changes the ACC 2016 status quo which provides a way to attack the GoR, and feeds the perception that the ACC is dying and kicks off the litigation circus. If the rump ACC finds itself in court battling all of its former top brands and ND, the remainders may become more amenable to settling and moving on to a sustainable and stable P3 future rather than gambling on years of contentious litigation that could result in a decade of big checks followed by a G5 future.
Isn't it just possible what may be damaging your brand even more is losing to some of those teams you despise in the ACC? Not to mention bad coaching hires including hanging on to Jimbo Fisher two years too many?
Over the past 5 years FSU has a record of 10-11 against Tier 3 Level ACC teams. Is 2-4 against Tier 2 Level ACC teams. And is 2-14 over that span against Clemson, Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida.
Just food for thought.
Cheers,
Neil
Absolutely, the fault ultimately lies with FSU for both our recent struggles and our imprisonment in the ACC. And both are damaging our brand every year that they continue. What's done is done, but I believe the path forward requires #1) consistently successful on-field football, #2) affiliating with like-minded regional universities that provide compelling matchups, and #3) adequate financial resources to fund #1, and to be competitive with our peers under #2. Improvement in any of the 3 areas will start to build back our brand, but only #1 could ever be achievable in the ACC. The B1G would make both #1 & #3 possible, while only a move to the SEC gives us the ability to achieve all 3. If we get that opportunity, it will still be up to FSU to wield #2 & #3 properly to make #1 happen.
Imprisonment in the ACC hasn't hurt Clemson too badly.
If you can't beat others in your same circumstance, how are you going to beat anyone else?
If you got SEC money and were still losing, then what would your excuse be?
It's not about finding excuses for losing seasons, those who want excuses can always find some. To me it's about having interesting matchups against compelling opponents, win or lose, so that every season is fun and not just the 12-0 ones that end with a playoff berth. It probably doesn't make sense to the ACC mindset, but the prospect of an improbable upset vs. a Georgia or Alabama is far more exciting than expecting to deliver a beating to Duke or Syracuse.
(07-25-2022 12:46 PM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 11:42 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:43 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:31 AM)OrangeDude Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 09:22 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly ATU, from the FSU perspective the LAST thing I want to see is Notre Dame appeased and willing to wait out the GoR. It does nothing good for us to play a few games against a wealthier ND while remaining stuck in a conference that is, exactly as you said, damaging our brand. ND going B1G is a key piece in many ways - gets the B1G expanding again and able to proceed to their endgame, provides another vote to potentially kill the ACC, changes the ACC 2016 status quo which provides a way to attack the GoR, and feeds the perception that the ACC is dying and kicks off the litigation circus. If the rump ACC finds itself in court battling all of its former top brands and ND, the remainders may become more amenable to settling and moving on to a sustainable and stable P3 future rather than gambling on years of contentious litigation that could result in a decade of big checks followed by a G5 future.
Isn't it just possible what may be damaging your brand even more is losing to some of those teams you despise in the ACC? Not to mention bad coaching hires including hanging on to Jimbo Fisher two years too many?
Over the past 5 years FSU has a record of 10-11 against Tier 3 Level ACC teams. Is 2-4 against Tier 2 Level ACC teams. And is 2-14 over that span against Clemson, Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida.
Just food for thought.
Cheers,
Neil
Absolutely, the fault ultimately lies with FSU for both our recent struggles and our imprisonment in the ACC. And both are damaging our brand every year that they continue. What's done is done, but I believe the path forward requires #1) consistently successful on-field football, #2) affiliating with like-minded regional universities that provide compelling matchups, and #3) adequate financial resources to fund #1, and to be competitive with our peers under #2. Improvement in any of the 3 areas will start to build back our brand, but only #1 could ever be achievable in the ACC. The B1G would make both #1 & #3 possible, while only a move to the SEC gives us the ability to achieve all 3. If we get that opportunity, it will still be up to FSU to wield #2 & #3 properly to make #1 happen.
Imprisonment in the ACC hasn't hurt Clemson too badly.
If you can't beat others in your same circumstance, how are you going to beat anyone else?
If you got SEC money and were still losing, then what would your excuse be?
It's not about finding excuses for losing seasons, those who want excuses can always find some. To me it's about having interesting matchups against compelling opponents, win or lose, so that every season is fun and not just the 12-0 ones that end with a playoff berth. It probably doesn't make sense to the ACC mindset, but the prospect of an improbable upset vs. a Georgia or Alabama is far more exciting than expecting to deliver a beating to Duke or Syracuse.
So after 30 years, the ACC isn't good enough for you anymore?
If it's not about money, just opponents, FSU shouldn't have signed the GOR. You can always schedule a more exciting non-conference schedule.
(07-25-2022 12:53 PM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 12:46 PM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 11:42 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:43 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:31 AM)OrangeDude Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't it just possible what may be damaging your brand even more is losing to some of those teams you despise in the ACC? Not to mention bad coaching hires including hanging on to Jimbo Fisher two years too many?
Over the past 5 years FSU has a record of 10-11 against Tier 3 Level ACC teams. Is 2-4 against Tier 2 Level ACC teams. And is 2-14 over that span against Clemson, Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida.
Just food for thought.
Cheers,
Neil
Absolutely, the fault ultimately lies with FSU for both our recent struggles and our imprisonment in the ACC. And both are damaging our brand every year that they continue. What's done is done, but I believe the path forward requires #1) consistently successful on-field football, #2) affiliating with like-minded regional universities that provide compelling matchups, and #3) adequate financial resources to fund #1, and to be competitive with our peers under #2. Improvement in any of the 3 areas will start to build back our brand, but only #1 could ever be achievable in the ACC. The B1G would make both #1 & #3 possible, while only a move to the SEC gives us the ability to achieve all 3. If we get that opportunity, it will still be up to FSU to wield #2 & #3 properly to make #1 happen.
Imprisonment in the ACC hasn't hurt Clemson too badly.
If you can't beat others in your same circumstance, how are you going to beat anyone else?
If you got SEC money and were still losing, then what would your excuse be?
It's not about finding excuses for losing seasons, those who want excuses can always find some. To me it's about having interesting matchups against compelling opponents, win or lose, so that every season is fun and not just the 12-0 ones that end with a playoff berth. It probably doesn't make sense to the ACC mindset, but the prospect of an improbable upset vs. a Georgia or Alabama is far more exciting than expecting to deliver a beating to Duke or Syracuse.
So after 30 years, the ACC isn't good enough for you anymore?
If it's not about money, just opponents, FSU shouldn't have signed the GOR. You can always schedule a more exciting non-conference schedule.
The ACC never was good enough for me, I think it's a terrible fit for FSU that has only gotten worse as the conference grows north. And I totally agree we should never have signed even the first GoR, let alone the ridiculous 20 year extension. If we'd had the courage to leave when Maryland did, we'd likely already be in the SEC. The good thing about these down years and the growing revenue gap is that I think more and more FSU fans agree with me. Too many in Tallahassee were content in the ACC when we dominated and the money was about the same, now that the P2 is forming and neither of those are the case I think we have a solid majority who will never be satisfied until we get out.
(07-25-2022 08:27 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:17 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 06:57 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 05:00 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ]First things first.
1-Everyone seems to be waiting on Notre Dame.
That's it.
Will NBC pay them around $10 million per game to broadcast their home schedule? Would CBS?
If there are no bidders at that price, how much would it cost Notre Dame to buy their way out of their contracts with the ACC? If that amount is deemed to be too much, then what? Legal action in cases the Irish know they can not win?
The interesting thing to me about Notre Dame's situation is that their symbiosis with the ACC could be over either way.
Let's say they get the $75M from NBC. Conventional wisdom says that stabilizes the ACC, but it doesn't. The game has changed. There's a handful of ACC members that will be happy to maintain status quo and ND helps them do that.
BUT
One factor is this...will the powers of the ACC really be interested in giving ND a full share of ACCN money(or other revenue) if they've already found a way to significantly bump their own individual coffers? The powers of the ACC will then be at a distinct and dramatic disadvantage within their own league and that's with ND football not even being included. I don't see that being tenable. Unequal revenue sharing is always controversial, but this arrangement would be a whole other animal.
More importantly, ND getting their money to stay independent even in a vacuum doesn't do a thing for Florida State, Miami, Clemson, or North Carolina or anyone else interested in competing with the SEC/Big Ten schools. Great for ND...they got their money...who cares?
With both the SEC and Big Ten moving into a new stratosphere, the pressure on these ACC schools is 100% organic regardless of what Notre Dame does or doesn't do.
At least, that's the way I see it.
1) If ND cannot get out of the GOR or get $75 million a year from NBC, then it signs a new 2025 deal for as much $$ as it can get, then sits there waiting out the GOR
(It still gets a nice raise and is a nice position as it relates to the ACC...tick tok.....)
2) ND fans care. Who cares whether anyone else cares?
ND getting bonus money to stay independent doesn't help any of the powers of the ACC. That's the point.
Sorry, that is never on my radar.
Whose fault is it that the ACC powers are where they are?
Themselves, that is who.
It is not ND's duty to "save" them....from themselves, apparently.
Just like the ACC fans don't want to see ND satisfied, I figure they are on their own.
(07-25-2022 01:32 PM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:27 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:17 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 06:57 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 05:00 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ]First things first.
1-Everyone seems to be waiting on Notre Dame.
That's it.
Will NBC pay them around $10 million per game to broadcast their home schedule? Would CBS?
If there are no bidders at that price, how much would it cost Notre Dame to buy their way out of their contracts with the ACC? If that amount is deemed to be too much, then what? Legal action in cases the Irish know they can not win?
The interesting thing to me about Notre Dame's situation is that their symbiosis with the ACC could be over either way.
Let's say they get the $75M from NBC. Conventional wisdom says that stabilizes the ACC, but it doesn't. The game has changed. There's a handful of ACC members that will be happy to maintain status quo and ND helps them do that.
BUT
One factor is this...will the powers of the ACC really be interested in giving ND a full share of ACCN money(or other revenue) if they've already found a way to significantly bump their own individual coffers? The powers of the ACC will then be at a distinct and dramatic disadvantage within their own league and that's with ND football not even being included. I don't see that being tenable. Unequal revenue sharing is always controversial, but this arrangement would be a whole other animal.
More importantly, ND getting their money to stay independent even in a vacuum doesn't do a thing for Florida State, Miami, Clemson, or North Carolina or anyone else interested in competing with the SEC/Big Ten schools. Great for ND...they got their money...who cares?
With both the SEC and Big Ten moving into a new stratosphere, the pressure on these ACC schools is 100% organic regardless of what Notre Dame does or doesn't do.
At least, that's the way I see it.
1) If ND cannot get out of the GOR or get $75 million a year from NBC, then it signs a new 2025 deal for as much $$ as it can get, then sits there waiting out the GOR
(It still gets a nice raise and is a nice position as it relates to the ACC...tick tok.....)
2) ND fans care. Who cares whether anyone else cares?
ND getting bonus money to stay independent doesn't help any of the powers of the ACC. That's the point.
Sorry, that is never on my radar.
Whose fault is it that the ACC powers are where they are?
Themselves, that is who.
It is not ND's duty to "save" them....from themselves, apparently.
Just like the ACC fans don't want to see ND satisfied, I figure they are on their own.
Terry, you're so used to defending Notre Dame's interests that you failed to realize I wasn't even talking about what ND should or shouldn't do.
It doesn't matter what ND does to anyone other than ND. That's fine. What I was talking about is what position the ACC is in and what effect all these decisions have on the members that have options.
I never said ND had a duty to do anything, however, the flip side of that coin is that the ACC doesn't have a duty to ND either. Just as ND is pursuing their best interests, the ACC members will do the same. They gave ND a deal several years ago because it was necessary to save the league. What I was pointing out is that arrangement is most likely untenable going forward because too many external factors have changed.
The point was that ND could choose the NBC money all day long and it doesn't guarantee the ACC will even continue to exist. It's an interesting aspect of the discussion that people aren't really thinking about...not a commentary on ND's purposes and intentions. Not everything revolves around ND
For ND's part, I see them ending up in the Big Ten. The ACC members that have options will mostly go to the SEC and some will go to the Big Ten. A few may end up in a 3rd conference.
This is all predicated on the notion that a critical mass of ACC members will come to see the conference as non-viable irrespective of ND's affiliation. Once they realize that, the dissolution is soon to follow. What I'm saying is if ND chooses the money from NBC in an effort to maintain independence then it doesn't actually guarantee they or NBC are getting what they've bargained for.
Whether ND goes to the Big Ten or is successful in obtaining a massive contract, the ACC could very easily dissolve either way. The members that have options cannot depend on Notre Dame to save them because their interests are at odds and so they will look for salvation in other avenues...whether ND wants to stay independent or not.
(07-25-2022 11:42 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:43 AM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 10:31 AM)OrangeDude Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't it just possible what may be damaging your brand even more is losing to some of those teams you despise in the ACC? Not to mention bad coaching hires including hanging on to Jimbo Fisher two years too many?
Over the past 5 years FSU has a record of 10-11 against Tier 3 Level ACC teams. Is 2-4 against Tier 2 Level ACC teams. And is 2-14 over that span against Clemson, Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida.
Just food for thought.
Cheers,
Neil
Absolutely, the fault ultimately lies with FSU for both our recent struggles and our imprisonment in the ACC. And both are damaging our brand every year that they continue. What's done is done, but I believe the path forward requires #1) consistently successful on-field football, #2) affiliating with like-minded regional universities that provide compelling matchups, and #3) adequate financial resources to fund #1, and to be competitive with our peers under #2. Improvement in any of the 3 areas will start to build back our brand, but only #1 could ever be achievable in the ACC. The B1G would make both #1 & #3 possible, while only a move to the SEC gives us the ability to achieve all 3. If we get that opportunity, it will still be up to FSU to wield #2 & #3 properly to make #1 happen.
Imprisonment in the ACC hasn't hurt Clemson too badly.
If you can't beat others in your same circumstance, how are you going to beat anyone else?
If you got SEC money and were still losing, then what would your excuse be?
ACC fans like to criticize FSU and Miami for not living up to their legacy as if that's even terribly relevant.
But Lance, here you skewer that perspective and elegantly so without even realizing it.
Clemson has been wreaking havoc over the ACC for the better part of a decade and they are in precisely the same situation as FSU and Miami...a huge financial deficit to the SEC and Big Ten, lacking in compelling regular season games to generate interest, and stuck with a millstone of a contract around its neck. Winning championships didn't change anything for Clemson and it wouldn't have changed anything for FSU or Miami.
The problem is the ACC.
(07-25-2022 12:46 PM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ]It's not about finding excuses for losing seasons, those who want excuses can always find some. To me it's about having interesting matchups against compelling opponents, win or lose, so that every season is fun and not just the 12-0 ones that end with a playoff berth. It probably doesn't make sense to the ACC mindset, but the prospect of an improbable upset vs. a Georgia or Alabama is far more exciting than expecting to deliver a beating to Duke or Syracuse.
Value is often derived from things other than winning. When people say all this team or league has to do is start winning again, they're examining things from a simplistic perspective. Lots of losing teams make tons of cash every single year.
(07-25-2022 12:53 PM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ]So after 30 years, the ACC isn't good enough for you anymore?
If it's not about money, just opponents, FSU shouldn't have signed the GOR. You can always schedule a more exciting non-conference schedule.
One of these days, it's going to hit you like a ton of bricks.
(07-25-2022 10:40 PM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 01:32 PM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:27 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 08:17 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2022 06:57 AM)AllTideUp Wrote: [ -> ]The interesting thing to me about Notre Dame's situation is that their symbiosis with the ACC could be over either way.
Let's say they get the $75M from NBC. Conventional wisdom says that stabilizes the ACC, but it doesn't. The game has changed. There's a handful of ACC members that will be happy to maintain status quo and ND helps them do that.
BUT
One factor is this...will the powers of the ACC really be interested in giving ND a full share of ACCN money(or other revenue) if they've already found a way to significantly bump their own individual coffers? The powers of the ACC will then be at a distinct and dramatic disadvantage within their own league and that's with ND football not even being included. I don't see that being tenable. Unequal revenue sharing is always controversial, but this arrangement would be a whole other animal.
More importantly, ND getting their money to stay independent even in a vacuum doesn't do a thing for Florida State, Miami, Clemson, or North Carolina or anyone else interested in competing with the SEC/Big Ten schools. Great for ND...they got their money...who cares?
With both the SEC and Big Ten moving into a new stratosphere, the pressure on these ACC schools is 100% organic regardless of what Notre Dame does or doesn't do.
At least, that's the way I see it.
1) If ND cannot get out of the GOR or get $75 million a year from NBC, then it signs a new 2025 deal for as much $$ as it can get, then sits there waiting out the GOR
(It still gets a nice raise and is a nice position as it relates to the ACC...tick tok.....)
2) ND fans care. Who cares whether anyone else cares?
ND getting bonus money to stay independent doesn't help any of the powers of the ACC. That's the point.
Sorry, that is never on my radar.
Whose fault is it that the ACC powers are where they are?
Themselves, that is who.
It is not ND's duty to "save" them....from themselves, apparently.
Just like the ACC fans don't want to see ND satisfied, I figure they are on their own.
Terry, you're so used to defending Notre Dame's interests that you failed to realize I wasn't even talking about what ND should or shouldn't do.
It doesn't matter what ND does to anyone other than ND. That's fine. What I was talking about is what position the ACC is in and what effect all these decisions have on the members that have options.
I never said ND had a duty to do anything, however, the flip side of that coin is that the ACC doesn't have a duty to ND either. Just as ND is pursuing their best interests, the ACC members will do the same. They gave ND a deal several years ago because it was necessary to save the league. What I was pointing out is that arrangement is most likely untenable going forward because too many external factors have changed.
The point was that ND could choose the NBC money all day long and it doesn't guarantee the ACC will even continue to exist. It's an interesting aspect of the discussion that people aren't really thinking about...not a commentary on ND's purposes and intentions. Not everything revolves around ND
For ND's part, I see them ending up in the Big Ten. The ACC members that have options will mostly go to the SEC and some will go to the Big Ten. A few may end up in a 3rd conference.
This is all predicated on the notion that a critical mass of ACC members will come to see the conference as non-viable irrespective of ND's affiliation. Once they realize that, the dissolution is soon to follow. What I'm saying is if ND chooses the money from NBC in an effort to maintain independence then it doesn't actually guarantee they or NBC are getting what they've bargained for.
Whether ND goes to the Big Ten or is successful in obtaining a massive contract, the ACC could very easily dissolve either way. Their iterests are at odds and so they will look for salvation in other ave members that have options cannot depend on Notre Dame to save them because their inenues...whether ND wants to stay independent or not.
I understood what you were saying from my first glance at your first post.
You meant "who in the ACC cares" if ND gets a big NBC deal. But, you said "Who cares"...and I responded by "ND fans care".
You misunderstood my posts.
I wasn't "defending" ND. ND doesn't need defending here. I wasn't claiming that everything revolves around ND, although right now realignment seems to do so. :)
What I am saying is that, at this point, not many ND fans really care all that much about what happens to the ACC.
I was re-phrasing your post as "Who cares if the ACC folds"??
If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can join the Big East for other sports.
If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC survives, cool. Congrats.
If ND doesn't get a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can explore joining the Big Ten.
The ACC is on its own. Good luck to them.
(07-26-2022 06:56 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can join the Big East for other sports.
If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC survives, cool. Congrats.
If ND doesn't get a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can explore joining the Big Ten.
The ACC is on its own. Good luck to them.
Terry,
Those are some interesting scenarios you've provided.
To the first listed, "
If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can join the Big East for other sports.
How would Notre Dame's football schedule — the one for which NBC is shelling out for a "big contract" — be constructed with the ACC's collapse?
Where would the replacements come for those five games since its likely most if not all of the ACC's top football brands would be headed to some combination of the SEC and B1G?
Would Notre Dame simply trade its five-game "football scheduling partnership" with the ACC for one with Conference No. 3?
Would NBC (with it's $10M per game or thereabouts contract) be agreeable with such an arrangement knowing Clemson, Florida State, Miami and Virginia Tech would no longer be guaranteed to appear on ND's schedule on a rotating basis?
(07-26-2022 08:24 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2022 06:56 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can join the Big East for other sports.
If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC survives, cool. Congrats.
If ND doesn't get a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can explore joining the Big Ten.
The ACC is on its own. Good luck to them.
Terry,
Those are some interesting scenarios you've provided.
To the first listed, "If ND gets a big NBC contract and the ACC folds, ND can join the Big East for other sports.
How would Notre Dame's football schedule — the one for which NBC is shelling out for a "big contract" — be constructed with the ACC's collapse?
Where would the replacements come for those five games since its likely most if not all of the ACC's top football brands would be headed to some combination of the SEC and B1G?
Would Notre Dame simply trade its five-game "football scheduling partnership" with the ACC for one with Conference No. 3?
Would NBC (with it's $10M per game or thereabouts contract) be agreeable with such an arrangement knowing Clemson, Florida State, Miami and Virginia Tech would no longer be guaranteed to appear on ND's schedule on a rotating basis?
In that event, to paraphrase Jim Phillips, "all options are on the table".
Jack Swarbrick will have to go back to the old days of filling out a completely independent schedule.
I am unconvinced that Big Ten and SEC teams would suddenly stop playing ND.
IF so? Join the Big Ten. I am sure there have been discussions about what to do with the NBC contract in that event.
The fates of ND and the ACC are not necessarily connected. There are options.
(07-26-2022 08:44 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]Jack Swarbrick will have to go back to the old days of filling out a completely independent schedule.
Week 1: Stanford
Week 2: @USC
Week 3: Oklahoma State (Big XII-Notre Dame challenge)
Week 4: vs. Army (Shamrock Series at Jerry World)
Week 5: UConn (Civil conFLICT trophy)
Week 6: Air Force
Week 7: UMass
Week 8: vs. Navy (D.C., RFK Stadium with new smoke detectors)
Week 9: @San Diego State
Week 10: vs. Boston College (Vatican City, site TBD)
Week 11: open
Week 12: Tulane
Week 13 (CCG weekend): UMass (homecoming)
(07-26-2022 09:05 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2022 08:44 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]Jack Swarbrick will have to go back to the old days of filling out a completely independent schedule.
Week 1: Stanford
Week 2: @USC
Week 3: Oklahoma State (Big XII-Notre Dame challenge)
Week 4: vs. Army (Shamrock Series at Jerry World)
Week 5: UConn (Civil conFLICT trophy)
Week 6: Air Force
Week 7: UMass
Week 8: vs. Navy (D.C., RFK Stadium with new smoke detectors)
Week 9: @San Diego State
Week 10: vs. Boston College (Vatican City, site TBD)
Week 11: open
Week 12: Tulane
Week 13 (CCG weekend): UMass (homecoming)
Lol, sure, that will be the best ND can do.
Lets just do the absolute worst case scenario from jump street, shall we?
The ACC scheduling never exactly looked like this either:
ND/Clemson
ND/Clemson
ND/Clemson
ND/Clemson
ND/Clemson
There are a lot of games against BC, Duke, Syracuse, Georgia Tech, etc..
ND is 24-1 versus ACC teams the last five regular seasons for a reason. Those were not all tough draws, SOS enhancers or exciting matchups, either.
ACC games are not irreplaceable, far from it. The five game deal made Swarbrick's life easier, but he can earn his money if need be.
Sorry for having de-railed this thread over "Who cares". My bad. Back to a discussion whether Kansas and/or USF will join the ACC or SEC.
(07-26-2022 09:05 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2022 08:44 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]Jack Swarbrick will have to go back to the old days of filling out a completely independent schedule.
Week 1: Stanford
Week 2: @USC
Week 3: Oklahoma State (Big XII-Notre Dame challenge)
Week 4: vs. Army (Shamrock Series at Jerry World)
Week 5: UConn (Civil conFLICT trophy)
Week 6: Air Force
Week 7: UMass
Week 8: vs. Navy (D.C., RFK Stadium with new smoke detectors)
Week 9: @San Diego State
Week 10: vs. Boston College (Vatican City, site TBD)
Week 11: open
Week 12: Tulane
Week 13 (CCG weekend): UMass (homecoming)
Notre Dame could never make the playoffs with that schedule, unless they were 12-0 and USC went 12-1 or something.
ND would be forced to join the Big 10 if that schedule was their alternative.
(07-24-2022 11:21 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote: [ -> ] (07-22-2022 04:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: [ -> ]That’s an interesting angle. Imagine what UCF or USF could do with SEC money.
You picked USF, but the NFL-less Orlando market might make for a better project school.
It is nearly one big market, and both are heavy CFB markets.
JR is right, the P2's are kingmakers. I think either would work, but USF is a better fit institutionally and the SEC has the social capital to cover their lesser performance to UCF.
If the P2s are looking at out-of-the-money schools, ones needing a partner like ND to cover, they could just look long term.
Schools in the south making P5 money while the others in the state are in the SEC will lose their place in line. FSU in particular given USF has a superior location.
This would be hugely motivating for FSU and and Miami. I think if the SEC pursued this, FSU and Miami would get very creative to get out of the GOR. Get Clemson on board too. Maybe all road games until the ACC leftovers relented. Maybe even go complete madman tactic and just leave. Better if it is a group of 4-6, but as long as it is less than $800 million and avoids the existential threat of USF being in the SEC over them, worth the risk of having to return to ACC and owe some amortized back rights. What is an ACC to ESPN without Clemson, Miami, and FSU etc?
Just a question of how bloody do things need to get.
USF getting an SEC invite? What’s the next hypothetical that’s suggested on here-Western Kentucky getting a Big 10 invite?
(07-26-2022 09:10 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]ND is 24-1 versus ACC teams the last five regular seasons for a reason.
More like two reasons.
The Irish have been pretty darn good.
And the GoR prisoners? Uhh, not so much.
Although this post, and several of the posts that came before it, this probably belongs better in the ACC forum than the realignment one. But since it's here my two cents is that the ACC would probably be better off without its Notre Dame deal, and Notre Dame would probably be happy not to be bound by it. The only ACC members who would oppose letting the Irish off the hook are the schools that help the conference the least.
(07-26-2022 09:22 AM)Poster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-24-2022 11:21 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote: [ -> ] (07-22-2022 04:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: [ -> ]That’s an interesting angle. Imagine what UCF or USF could do with SEC money.
You picked USF, but the NFL-less Orlando market might make for a better project school.
It is nearly one big market, and both are heavy CFB markets.
JR is right, the P2's are kingmakers. I think either would work, but USF is a better fit institutionally and the SEC has the social capital to cover their lesser performance to UCF.
If the P2s are looking at out-of-the-money schools, ones needing a partner like ND to cover, they could just look long term.
Schools in the south making P5 money while the others in the state are in the SEC will lose their place in line. FSU in particular given USF has a superior location.
This would be hugely motivating for FSU and and Miami. I think if the SEC pursued this, FSU and Miami would get very creative to get out of the GOR. Get Clemson on board too. Maybe all road games until the ACC leftovers relented. Maybe even go complete madman tactic and just leave. Better if it is a group of 4-6, but as long as it is less than $800 million and avoids the existential threat of USF being in the SEC over them, worth the risk of having to return to ACC and owe some amortized back rights. What is an ACC to ESPN without Clemson, Miami, and FSU etc?
Just a question of how bloody do things need to get.
USF getting an SEC invite? What’s the next hypothetical that’s suggested on here-Western Kentucky getting a Big 10 invite?
You missed the setup to the hypothetical, as well as the huge difference between USF and WKU
Where would USF be with respect to FSU in 14 years if in the SEC over that time, while FSU stays in the ACC making half? Would FSU still have a higher valuation?
(07-26-2022 01:13 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2022 09:22 AM)Poster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-24-2022 11:21 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote: [ -> ] (07-22-2022 04:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: [ -> ]That’s an interesting angle. Imagine what UCF or USF could do with SEC money.
You picked USF, but the NFL-less Orlando market might make for a better project school.
It is nearly one big market, and both are heavy CFB markets.
JR is right, the P2's are kingmakers. I think either would work, but USF is a better fit institutionally and the SEC has the social capital to cover their lesser performance to UCF.
If the P2s are looking at out-of-the-money schools, ones needing a partner like ND to cover, they could just look long term.
Schools in the south making P5 money while the others in the state are in the SEC will lose their place in line. FSU in particular given USF has a superior location.
This would be hugely motivating for FSU and and Miami. I think if the SEC pursued this, FSU and Miami would get very creative to get out of the GOR. Get Clemson on board too. Maybe all road games until the ACC leftovers relented. Maybe even go complete madman tactic and just leave. Better if it is a group of 4-6, but as long as it is less than $800 million and avoids the existential threat of USF being in the SEC over them, worth the risk of having to return to ACC and owe some amortized back rights. What is an ACC to ESPN without Clemson, Miami, and FSU etc?
Just a question of how bloody do things need to get.
USF getting an SEC invite? What’s the next hypothetical that’s suggested on here-Western Kentucky getting a Big 10 invite?
You missed the setup to the hypothetical, as well as the huge difference between USF and WKU
Where would USF be with respect to FSU in 14 years if in the SEC over that time, while FSU stays in the ACC making half? Would FSU still have a higher valuation?
A lot of people seem to be assuming UCF and USF are on equal footing; that USF is just as valuable as UCF so they should be added by a power conference. That could not be more wrong. Honestly UCF is closer to Alabama and Ohio State than they are to USF at this point.
USF has little to no fan support. They can't get people to show up for games while giving away tickets at dunkin donuts drive throughs.
No facilities. Their IPF will be finished in time for the '23 football season, no way it's done during the '22 season with where it's currently at. And they'll never be able to fund an OCS no matter how many over the top renderings they make.
They have no conference or division championships. Not just in the AAC, ever. They've never been in a major bowl game, let alone win one. Their biggest appearance I believe is the Birmingham Bowl.
They have no market presence. They're at best fighting for the 5th CFB spot in their market.
Hell the Tampa area pro teams struggle with fan support. The Rays can't get any fans to show up, they'd be in Montreal by now if covid didn't ruin their 2020 season to have half their home games there. Before the Bucs got Brady they couldn't get much of anyone to show up. It took the Lightning multiple Stanley Cup wins to get a decent home crowd and there's still strong away team crowds at their games.
USF and UConn are now the only former Big East schools to be left out during realignment. Twice. If they had any value they would of been added with UCF when the Big 12 just accessed all available schools. They were nowhere near being seriously considered.
It is completely ridiculous thinking USF is anything but a negative add for a power conference much less the SEC. It'd be like when the Big East tried to stabilize itself by trying to convince Villanova to start playing FBS football. That's how far behind they are. Have you noticed that no USF fans are chiming in on this thread? It's because they know it's a ridiculous notion.
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
(07-26-2022 03:53 PM)MidknightWhiskey Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of people seem to be assuming UCF and USF are on equal footing; that USF is just as valuable as UCF so they should be added by a power conference. That could not be more wrong. Honestly UCF is closer to Alabama and Ohio State than they are to USF at this point.
You should post this at the Bulls Pen just for the fun of it
(07-26-2022 03:53 PM)MidknightWhiskey Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2022 01:13 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2022 09:22 AM)Poster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-24-2022 11:21 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote: [ -> ] (07-22-2022 04:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: [ -> ]That’s an interesting angle. Imagine what UCF or USF could do with SEC money.
You picked USF, but the NFL-less Orlando market might make for a better project school.
It is nearly one big market, and both are heavy CFB markets.
JR is right, the P2's are kingmakers. I think either would work, but USF is a better fit institutionally and the SEC has the social capital to cover their lesser performance to UCF.
If the P2s are looking at out-of-the-money schools, ones needing a partner like ND to cover, they could just look long term.
Schools in the south making P5 money while the others in the state are in the SEC will lose their place in line. FSU in particular given USF has a superior location.
This would be hugely motivating for FSU and and Miami. I think if the SEC pursued this, FSU and Miami would get very creative to get out of the GOR. Get Clemson on board too. Maybe all road games until the ACC leftovers relented. Maybe even go complete madman tactic and just leave. Better if it is a group of 4-6, but as long as it is less than $800 million and avoids the existential threat of USF being in the SEC over them, worth the risk of having to return to ACC and owe some amortized back rights. What is an ACC to ESPN without Clemson, Miami, and FSU etc?
Just a question of how bloody do things need to get.
USF getting an SEC invite? What’s the next hypothetical that’s suggested on here-Western Kentucky getting a Big 10 invite?
You missed the setup to the hypothetical, as well as the huge difference between USF and WKU
Where would USF be with respect to FSU in 14 years if in the SEC over that time, while FSU stays in the ACC making half? Would FSU still have a higher valuation?
A lot of people seem to be assuming UCF and USF are on equal footing; that USF is just as valuable as UCF so they should be added by a power conference. That could not be more wrong. Honestly UCF is closer to Alabama and Ohio State than they are to USF at this point.
USF has little to no fan support. They can't get people to show up for games while giving away tickets at dunkin donuts drive throughs.
No facilities. Their IPF will be finished in time for the '23 football season, no way it's done during the '22 season with where it's currently at. And they'll never be able to fund an OCS no matter how many over the top renderings they make.
They have no conference or division championships. Not just in the AAC, ever. They've never been in a major bowl game, let alone win one. Their biggest appearance I believe is the Birmingham Bowl.
They have no market presence. They're at best fighting for the 5th CFB spot in their market.
Hell the Tampa area pro teams struggle with fan support. The Rays can't get any fans to show up, they'd be in Montreal by now if covid didn't ruin their 2020 season to have half their home games there. Before the Bucs got Brady they couldn't get much of anyone to show up. It took the Lightning multiple Stanley Cup wins to get a decent home crowd and there's still strong away team crowds at their games.
USF and UConn are now the only former Big East schools to be left out during realignment. Twice. If they had any value they would of been added with UCF when the Big 12 just accessed all available schools. They were nowhere near being seriously considered.
It is completely ridiculous thinking USF is anything but a negative add for a power conference much less the SEC. It'd be like when the Big East tried to stabilize itself by trying to convince Villanova to start playing FBS football. That's how far behind they are. Have you noticed that no USF fans are chiming in on this thread? It's because they know it's a ridiculous notion.
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
And nothing you said is disputed, nor is it relevant. UCF has peaked. You will not be in the Big Ten, nor will you make the SEC, academics, and frankly location, are against you.
This thread isn't about UCF. It's about how destructive to FSU and Miami an adherence to the ACC GOR would be.
If the University of Florida showed up in Tampa/St. Pete would the venue sell out? Likely. Ditto Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, LSU, and A&M as all travel very well. Orlando is sprawled and congested due to theme park nirvana and is a great side trip for an extended weekend of college sports, but that novelty wears off. Tampa/St Pete is preferable for a weekend for couples sans kids.
The point is if the SEC needed a second Florida school, and it does, if FSU and Miami, both academically preferable, were locked up, USF could be elevated because of location and academics. The SEC would pick up the venue issues and our families would enjoy the Gulf Coast and amenities of T/SP.
My larger point was the ACC GOR would essentially bypass Miami and FSU and with 100 million annually in athletic revenue USF would catch up and surpass those in Florida making 40 million annually and less. Money has a way of being of great benefit.
The threat of USF supplanting a FSU or Miami is merely illustrative of the urgency to dissolve the ACC because the financial disparity will doom all bound there. The SEC and Big Ten will simply move on without them.