CSNbbs

For those of you who don't care about basketball (which according to my pick contest is everyone here), here's a look back.

Way back in 1996 the WAC made a big splash and expanded to 16 teams, picking off three former SWC to its existing members along with others. They were to my knowledge the first 16 team conference. They lasted three seasons in football before the MWC-WAC split.

In football, teams were split into four four team quads. The teams had played three seasons in the WAC, two in the original divisions and one with the quads shifted before the MWC-WAC split.

Did the quads contribute to the WAC failing? Should they have just stuck to a regular set of two divisions of eight teams each? Back then no one was even considering divisionless alignments. Would the WAC still be together today? It's unlikely that Utah would resist a call from the Pac-12 or BYU, TCU, or Houston from the Big 12 but would the Mountain West exist if the WAC "got it right"? Could the WAC have gotten it right? Were the quads a concept doomed to fail or did the WAC just choose them totally wrong?

Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]For those of you who don't care about basketball (which according to my pick contest is everyone here), here's a look back.

Way back in 1996 the WAC made a big splash and expanded to 16 teams, picking off three former SWC to its existing members along with others. They were to my knowledge the first 16 team conference. They lasted three seasons in football before the MWC-WAC split.

In football, teams were split into four four team quads. The teams had played three seasons in the WAC, two in the original divisions and one with the quads shifted before the MWC-WAC split.

Did the quads contribute to the WAC failing? Should they have just stuck to a regular set of two divisions of eight teams each? Back then no one was even considering divisionless alignments. Would the WAC still be together today? It's unlikely that Utah would resist a call from the Pac-12 or BYU, TCU, or Houston from the Big 12 but would the Mountain West exist if the WAC "got it right"? Could the WAC have gotten it right? Were the quads a concept doomed to fail or did the WAC just choose them totally wrong?

Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

One minor note, Houston was not in that WAC. They went from the SWC to CUSA.

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

It would be nice if the 16 team WAC had lasted longer so we had a larger sample size to surface any issues, but I hope the SEC does try pods. I like the pods proposed on the SEC network last summer -

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma

(01-21-2022 05:54 PM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

It would be nice if the 16 team WAC had lasted longer so we had a larger sample size to surface any issues, but I hope the SEC does try pods. I like the pods proposed on the SEC network last summer -

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma

Obviously if Texas and Texas A&M don't play annually it's still better that they will occasionally play but I'd be very disappointed if they don't annually play.

I don't like pods personally. I think 2 8 team divisions was the better choice. Though another problem was if I remember right fbs was still at 11 game seasons. Assuming a 9 game conference schedule then schools only have 2 OOC games. The championship game could have made some money.

(01-21-2022 05:55 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 05:54 PM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

It would be nice if the 16 team WAC had lasted longer so we had a larger sample size to surface any issues, but I hope the SEC does try pods. I like the pods proposed on the SEC network last summer -

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma

Obviously if Texas and Texas A&M don't play annually it's still better that they will occasionally play but I'd be very disappointed if they don't annually play.

Very true, you have to think the SEC wants that game to happen every year. Other than that I like the idea of A&M in a separate pod, they deserve to keep a little bit of the separation from Texas they got by coming to the SEC years ago.

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

One can hope, right?

I always found it interesting that the teams that formed the MWC were the same schools that would have decided to grow to 16 to begin with. Either a quick case of buyer's remorse or a very elaborate plan just to ditch UTEP and Hawaii for UNLV (or both????).

I prefer east-west. My next preference would be divisionless with protected rivalries. I would tolerate pods. I don't see the SEC splitting up.

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]For those of you who don't care about basketball (which according to my pick contest is everyone here), here's a look back.

Way back in 1996 the WAC made a big splash and expanded to 16 teams, picking off three former SWC to its existing members along with others. They were to my knowledge the first 16 team conference. They lasted three seasons in football before the MWC-WAC split.

In football, teams were split into four four team quads. The teams had played three seasons in the WAC, two in the original divisions and one with the quads shifted before the MWC-WAC split.

Did the quads contribute to the WAC failing? Should they have just stuck to a regular set of two divisions of eight teams each? Back then no one was even considering divisionless alignments. Would the WAC still be together today? It's unlikely that Utah would resist a call from the Pac-12 or BYU, TCU, or Houston from the Big 12 but would the Mountain West exist if the WAC "got it right"? Could the WAC have gotten it right? Were the quads a concept doomed to fail or did the WAC just choose them totally wrong?

Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

CFB teams often only played 11 regular-season games at the time and a 9-game conference schedule wasn't really on the radar. A 9-game WAC schedule would have allowed the legacy WAC schools to play each other more often, while also playing frequently in both California and Texas.

But, with only an 8-game schedule, the 7 legacy schools in the middle hardly played each other...and they felt it. Air Force, Colorado State, and Wyoming on the one side (Quad 2 with UNLV) and BYU, Utah and New Mexico on the other (Quad 3 with UTEP). BYU never had Air Force, Colorado State, or Wyoming on its WAC schedule during the short 16-team WAC lifespan, though we did face Wyoming and Air Force in WAC championship games.

The original 8-team MWC was WAC Quads 2 and 3 minus UTEP plus San Diego State (another legacy member).

I'm excited to see what the 16-team SEC does. I'm certain they will play at least 9 conference games, which should help with more cross-conference scheduling opportunities.

(01-21-2022 06:27 PM)Porcine Wrote: [ -> ]I prefer east-west. My next preference would be divisionless with protected rivalries. I would tolerate pods. I don't see the SEC splitting up.

I prefer pods with 3 protected(1 from each pod)

Play 9 Conference games:
Your 3 podmates, 3 protected non pod, and the 3 other teams from the pod you rotate through.


Itskind of like NFL schedule except instead of last year finishers of the same spot its you 3 rivals.

You play every school in a 3yr cycyle

Using the example pods:

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahom

Example Kentucky would play Tennessee, Mississippi State, and Missouri every year.

(01-21-2022 07:45 PM)spenser Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 06:27 PM)Porcine Wrote: [ -> ]I prefer east-west. My next preference would be divisionless with protected rivalries. I would tolerate pods. I don't see the SEC splitting up.

I prefer pods with 3 protected(1 from each pod)

Play 9 Conference games:
Your 3 podmates, 3 protected non pod, and the 3 other teams from the pod you rotate through.


Itskind of like NFL schedule except instead of last year finishers of the same spot its you 3 rivals.

You play every school in a 3yr cycyle

Using the example pods:

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahom

Example Kentucky would play Tennessee, Mississippi State, and Missouri every year.

If the pods are rivalries, great. So far, they have all been geographic.

(01-21-2022 07:45 PM)spenser Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 06:27 PM)Porcine Wrote: [ -> ]I prefer east-west. My next preference would be divisionless with protected rivalries. I would tolerate pods. I don't see the SEC splitting up.

I prefer pods with 3 protected(1 from each pod)

Play 9 Conference games:
Your 3 podmates, 3 protected non pod, and the 3 other teams from the pod you rotate through.


Itskind of like NFL schedule except instead of last year finishers of the same spot its you 3 rivals.

You play every school in a 3yr cycyle

Using the example pods:

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahom

Example Kentucky would play Tennessee, Mississippi State, and Missouri every year.

I like your idea! That would work for preserving rivalries like Georgia-Auburn, Kentucky-Tennessee, etc.

(01-21-2022 07:57 PM)Gamenole Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 07:45 PM)spenser Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 06:27 PM)Porcine Wrote: [ -> ]I prefer east-west. My next preference would be divisionless with protected rivalries. I would tolerate pods. I don't see the SEC splitting up.

I prefer pods with 3 protected(1 from each pod)

Play 9 Conference games:
Your 3 podmates, 3 protected non pod, and the 3 other teams from the pod you rotate through.


Itskind of like NFL schedule except instead of last year finishers of the same spot its you 3 rivals.

You play every school in a 3yr cycyle

Using the example pods:

Pod A: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina

Pod B: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Pod C: LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Pod D: Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahom

Example Kentucky would play Tennessee, Mississippi State, and Missouri every year.

I like your idea! That would work for preserving rivalries like Georgia-Auburn, Kentucky-Tennessee, etc.

Makes those games permanent. We don't need pods for that.

(01-21-2022 06:34 PM)YNot Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]For those of you who don't care about basketball (which according to my pick contest is everyone here), here's a look back.

Way back in 1996 the WAC made a big splash and expanded to 16 teams, picking off three former SWC to its existing members along with others. They were to my knowledge the first 16 team conference. They lasted three seasons in football before the MWC-WAC split.

In football, teams were split into four four team quads. The teams had played three seasons in the WAC, two in the original divisions and one with the quads shifted before the MWC-WAC split.

Did the quads contribute to the WAC failing? Should they have just stuck to a regular set of two divisions of eight teams each? Back then no one was even considering divisionless alignments. Would the WAC still be together today? It's unlikely that Utah would resist a call from the Pac-12 or BYU, TCU, or Houston from the Big 12 but would the Mountain West exist if the WAC "got it right"? Could the WAC have gotten it right? Were the quads a concept doomed to fail or did the WAC just choose them totally wrong?

Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

CFB teams often only played 11 regular-season games at the time and a 9-game conference schedule wasn't really on the radar. A 9-game WAC schedule would have allowed the legacy WAC schools to play each other more often, while also playing frequently in both California and Texas.

But, with only an 8-game schedule, the 7 legacy schools in the middle hardly played each other...and they felt it. Air Force, Colorado State, and Wyoming on the one side (Quad 2 with UNLV) and BYU, Utah and New Mexico on the other (Quad 3 with UTEP). BYU never had Air Force, Colorado State, or Wyoming on its WAC schedule during the short 16-team WAC lifespan, though we did face Wyoming and Air Force in WAC championship games.

The original 8-team MWC was WAC Quads 2 and 3 minus UTEP plus San Diego State (another legacy member).

I'm excited to see what the 16-team SEC does. I'm certain they will play at least 9 conference games, which should help with more cross-conference scheduling opportunities.

SEC should play without divisions, counting results over two seasons.

3 permanent opponents, the other 12 in groups of six alternating years. The permanent opponents count as a win or loss over the two years, the other games count double.

For 14 teams conferences

3 permanent opponents, the other 10 in groups of five alternating years (8 games)

3 permanent opponents, the other 10 three times over five years (9 games)

4 permanent opponents, the other 9 five times over nine years (9 games)

5 permanent opponents. the other 8 in groups of four alternating years (9 games)

For 12 teams conferences

3 permanent opponents, the other 10 in groups of five alternating years (8 games)

4 permanent opponents, the other 9 five times over nine years (9 games)

5 permanent opponents, the other 6 in groups of three alternating years (8 games)

5 permanent opponents, the other 6, two times over three years (9 games)

Advantages:

(1) No unbalanced divisions (e.g. B1G)
(2) No nonsensical divisions (e.g. ACC)
(3) No contrived divisions (e.g. SEC)
(4) No advantage playing Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Duke, every season.
(5) No disadvantage playing Alabama, Ohio State, etc. every season.

I don't like 9 conference games because I enjoy OOC games. But I also don't like conferences being bigger than 12 teams (or 9 to be honest).

Probably why I'm not an AD.

But if you're going to be that big (and travel costs aren't a factor, as they won't be for the SEC) pods are fun.

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]For those of you who don't care about basketball (which according to my pick contest is everyone here), here's a look back.

Way back in 1996 the WAC made a big splash and expanded to 16 teams, picking off three former SWC to its existing members along with others. They were to my knowledge the first 16 team conference. They lasted three seasons in football before the MWC-WAC split.

In football, teams were split into four four team quads. The teams had played three seasons in the WAC, two in the original divisions and one with the quads shifted before the MWC-WAC split.

Did the quads contribute to the WAC failing? Should they have just stuck to a regular set of two divisions of eight teams each? Back then no one was even considering divisionless alignments. Would the WAC still be together today? It's unlikely that Utah would resist a call from the Pac-12 or BYU, TCU, or Houston from the Big 12 but would the Mountain West exist if the WAC "got it right"? Could the WAC have gotten it right? Were the quads a concept doomed to fail or did the WAC just choose them totally wrong?

Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

The quad (or pod) scheduling and 16-team superconference is a brilliant idea....if you have an endless supply of money, media presence, etc. The Western Athletic Conference's 16-team model was simply ahead of its time before the technology, the money, and notoriety. Now, with the advent of live streaming and social media, schools and fanbases that were once miles apart on opposite sides of the country are suddenly brought more intimately closer together to create rivalries and fan interest.

Now, the SEC has history, money, and a lot of advantages in any circumstance, but now it's easier to bring an Oklahoma and Florida or Texas and South Carolina who are both at roughly 1170 miles apart (17-hr drive), and still make it work. The SEC has maintained relative geography, but at this stage in the game, that league could go after any school in America, and that school would likely join them.

The streamlined constitution of Division 1 governance opened the doors for the SEC to go to pod scheduling, and I'm 90% confident that they will do just that, and they will make it work very successfully. There may be a few things to tweak, but I think you will see this bunch pull it off with no threats of a split. None of those 16 schools are going to want to leave the money and media presence that the SEC brand carries.

Will this encourage other leagues to go to 16? Not necessarily. It's unlikely any other league in the NCAA can begin to command the amount of media presence and money that the SEC does. Those are pretty big factors when it comes to taking what amounts to two 8-team conferences and creating a 16-team superconference. If the AAC or Sun Belt tried that, it would just be too easy to split eight one way and eight the other way because the budget restraints of those schools coupled with the much less media exposure and money of the SEC wouldn't validate a 16-team model at that level. Besides, ESPN and the networks have a large say in what they want to see in a conference, and for the SEC, they love it. For everyone else, probably not so much.

(01-21-2022 06:34 PM)YNot Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 05:28 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]For those of you who don't care about basketball (which according to my pick contest is everyone here), here's a look back.

Way back in 1996 the WAC made a big splash and expanded to 16 teams, picking off three former SWC to its existing members along with others. They were to my knowledge the first 16 team conference. They lasted three seasons in football before the MWC-WAC split.

In football, teams were split into four four team quads. The teams had played three seasons in the WAC, two in the original divisions and one with the quads shifted before the MWC-WAC split.

Did the quads contribute to the WAC failing? Should they have just stuck to a regular set of two divisions of eight teams each? Back then no one was even considering divisionless alignments. Would the WAC still be together today? It's unlikely that Utah would resist a call from the Pac-12 or BYU, TCU, or Houston from the Big 12 but would the Mountain West exist if the WAC "got it right"? Could the WAC have gotten it right? Were the quads a concept doomed to fail or did the WAC just choose them totally wrong?

Certainly the idea of a 16 team football conference is relevant (or will be) soon after Oklahoma and Texas join the SEC. Should they even bother with quads? Is a 16 team SEC doomed for an inevitable split like the WAC and 16 team Big East eventually did?

CFB teams often only played 11 regular-season games at the time and a 9-game conference schedule wasn't really on the radar. A 9-game WAC schedule would have allowed the legacy WAC schools to play each other more often, while also playing frequently in both California and Texas.

But, with only an 8-game schedule, the 7 legacy schools in the middle hardly played each other...and they felt it. Air Force, Colorado State, and Wyoming on the one side (Quad 2 with UNLV) and BYU, Utah and New Mexico on the other (Quad 3 with UTEP). BYU never had Air Force, Colorado State, or Wyoming on its WAC schedule during the short 16-team WAC lifespan, though we did face Wyoming and Air Force in WAC championship games.

The original 8-team MWC was WAC Quads 2 and 3 minus UTEP plus San Diego State (another legacy member).

I'm excited to see what the 16-team SEC does. I'm certain they will play at least 9 conference games, which should help with more cross-conference scheduling opportunities.

I've always wondered why they didn't consider that before inviting all the extra schools to join.

Would have saved a lot of headache (and possibly postponed the basketball play in games) if they'd just invited UNLV to begin with.

(01-21-2022 08:32 PM)inutech Wrote: [ -> ]I don't like 9 conference games because I enjoy OOC games. But I also don't like conferences being bigger than 12 teams (or 9 to be honest).

Probably why I'm not an AD.

But if you're going to be that big (and travel costs aren't a factor, as they won't be for the SEC) pods are fun.

Go to 18 teams and each division can be it's own conference.

(01-21-2022 08:33 PM)All4One Wrote: [ -> ]If the AAC or Sun Belt tried that, it would just be too easy to split eight one way and eight the other way because the budget restraints of those schools coupled with the much less media exposure and money of the SEC wouldn't validate a 16-team model at that level.

Not without a way for both groups to have an automatic bid.

Now, if you could do that (or you aren't going to have one anyway, which seems more likely to happen), you're probably right. But what's the downside? Two 8 team conferences is better than one 16 team conference.

(01-21-2022 08:38 PM)Porcine Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022 08:32 PM)inutech Wrote: [ -> ]I don't like 9 conference games because I enjoy OOC games. But I also don't like conferences being bigger than 12 teams (or 9 to be honest).

Probably why I'm not an AD.

But if you're going to be that big (and travel costs aren't a factor, as they won't be for the SEC) pods are fun.

Go to 18 teams and each division can be it's own conference.

Sure.

2 conferences negotiating media deals together. Be fine.